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Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) - page 827. (Read 1079974 times)

full member
Activity: 144
Merit: 100
Maybe just a bit too late in my transfer to pick up really low prices.

Reddit is saying this story is BS and a mistake regarding an old story.

There is another company named Avalon Ventures, or something like that that also raised $200 mil in the past few years. However, the WSJ wouldn't make that kind of mistake.

It would be just so much incompetence if that was the case. However, not at all impossible.
2B,鉴定完毕!!!!
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
That sharp increase was correlated with the reward halving. It takes 2 years to get 20nm completed and shipped, so it actually does make quite a bit of sense.

It was also around the time the first ASICs were supposed to come online, and in fact it was after Avalon B1. I know because the price of bitcoin was around $30 or something when B2 orders opened up.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
I must agree that 200 million when AM has values at that range and a market capital of 1 billion is a big bet on bitcoin before miners given the production time-frame I must admit bitcoin always keeps me interested. Truly it would be a giant bull sign.
http://blockchain.info/charts/market-cap

AM's market cap is ~$160 million USD.

But that doesn't mean AM has $160 million dollars it can just straight up spend on whatever it wants. That's a huge difference.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
$200m should be plenty of money to get on the waiting list for 0.20nm.

But initial costs will be high, seems like it would be much cheaper to simply make 50% more 28nm chips.

I suspect $200m figure might actually be one thing that was taken from the older articles. It just makes no sense, unless they think the price of bitcoin is going to totally explode.

No matter how I look at this, IF the investment is indeed $200 million that is nothing more than a HUGE bet on very fast and sharp increase in Bitcon value.

Why? Because almost no matter the technology used, to actually make a sustainable profit off $200 invested Avalon would have to hold OVER 50% of the network hash rate for a very long time (many years) at current BTC value, a calculation I think no VC would be willing to bet on (Not onto mention the huge risk to the Bitcoin network as a whole).

What this investment really is, is a HUGE bet on increasing BTC value. Nothing else in my opinion. It's someone who wants into BTC on a larger scale then they could reasonably purchase BTC over the open market.

That sharp increase was correlated with the reward halving. It takes 2 years to get 20nm completed and shipped, so it actually does make quite a bit of sense.
hero member
Activity: 487
Merit: 500
Are You Shpongled?
There is NO WAY that 20 nm will come out in any quantities before mid/late 2014 (and that would be very impressive) and time-to-market is still more important then anything.
EXACTLY!!! This is what all of the panic sellers are missing. Labcoin, btcgarden, ActiveMining, etc. are all going to have chips out for months if not years before any of these supposed 20nm chips start pumping out. Even if/when 20nm chips are out, they won't be able to compete on cost! According to NVIDIA the 20nm chips are so expensive and low yield that the benefit of miniaturization hits a brick wall quickly.

As I posted in the ActM thread:

Even AMD and NVIDIA are not producing 20nm chips yet and they are huge semiconductor companies with billions of dollars that usually keep TSMC and other companies busy.

NVIDIA gave a presentation in late 2011 explaining the problems of moving to 20nm including high costs for little performance gain. http://www.extremetech.com/computing/123529-nvidia-deeply-unhappy-with-tsmc-claims-22nm-essentially-worthless


20nm is going to cost significantly more than 28nm for at least a couple years based on NVIDIA's projections here, and the production lines will be busy fulfilling orders for these semiconductor giants, not a tiny company like Avalon regardless of whether or not they receive this alleged $200 M investment. Avalon's 20nm chips would be at least one year away if not more; they would be absurdly expensive and they would not be able to compete on price with the 3 contenders for the 28nm market who will have much lower NRE and R&D costs as well as getting to market faster.


From the article: "What this slide states — we can’t even call it a suggestion — is that smaller processes no longer improve yields by leading to a greater number of chips per wafer. Instead, the complexities and difficulties of manufacturing at the new process create a cost structure that provides precious little incentive to manufacture at the new process. "
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
I will leave it up to Sam and the Developers to clarify exact numbers and dates. I can however say that after first-run, the plan is to order "very large" amounts of chips (likely multiples of 15,000 chips) instantly for quick delivery for both resale and miner construction. miners will be used for both mining and for consumer resale.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1090
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
I must agree that 200 million when AM has values at that range and a market capital of 1 billion is a big bet on bitcoin before miners given the production time-frame I must admit bitcoin always keeps me interested. Truly it would be a giant bull sign.
http://blockchain.info/charts/market-cap
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Actually, TheSwede75 Can you clarify: Their second 130nm order will be for 100k chips and is supposed to be ordered after they get their first order up and running, so they should get chips in december?

Also, the plan is to get 30-50Thash online in september, but here they say they want to get 1,000/1,500 chips in the first order which at 4.8Ghash would only be 4.8-7.2Th.

I assume they meant 10k/15k right?
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Glad I sold off most shares, even at a loss; what is left is not doing so well

Code:
LABCOIN Purchase History. Approx Profit:	▼ ฿ -86.7616417

Hopefully we'll see more info to satisfy investors than a pic of an fpga plugged into 3g router; like a Q/A session with dev which was mentioned, lot of red flags as it stands

The company is way undervalued.  Unless they're initial chips don't work, they'll have around at least 30Thash online by the start of september see here,  and if their chips hit only 50% of their performance goals they'll have 240Thash online with the second run of 130nm chips. 480Thash if they meet their performance goals.

Of course "chips not working" is certainly a possibility, but 130nm supposedly isn't that difficult.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
UPDATE: Regarding my purchasing shares in Labcoin I up just wanted to point out that I am not privy to insider information (I function as marketing/support resource) and my motives behind buying shares is/was based on my own belief that Labcoin is undervalued at this point and that the Avalon news initially "scared" a lot of ASIC companies share holders.

I think you should not talk about buying/selling of labcoin stocks, as team member of  labcoin. It's just misleading.

I'm more interested in the 3M private shares, what's your plan to ensure the shareholders that you will not sell into market, not just by saying.

Point taken. Even though i am not an insider or founder/developer i see how it could be seen as inappropriate for me to discuss my investments. I have also been informed that Labcoin will make a public statement regarding the Founders holdings within 24 hours to ease any concerns from share holders.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
$200m should be plenty of money to get on the waiting list for 0.20nm.

But initial costs will be high, seems like it would be much cheaper to simply make 50% more 28nm chips.

I suspect $200m figure might actually be one thing that was taken from the older articles. It just makes no sense, unless they think the price of bitcoin is going to totally explode.

No matter how I look at this, IF the investment is indeed $200 million that is nothing more than a HUGE bet on very fast and sharp increase in Bitcon value.

Why? Because almost no matter the technology used, to actually make a sustainable profit off $200 invested Avalon would have to hold OVER 50% of the network hash rate for a very long time (many years) at current BTC value, a calculation I think no VC would be willing to bet on (Not onto mention the huge risk to the Bitcoin network as a whole).

What this investment really is, is a HUGE bet on increasing BTC value. Nothing else in my opinion. It's someone who wants into BTC on a larger scale then they could reasonably purchase BTC over the open market.
If the story is even legit.

Of course. But even assuming it is, I would go as far as to say that the market reaction makes NO sense.

if Avalon indeed have taken on $200 million in capital, and one can assume they did not sell a majority position. IMAGINE what that values the company at! Then apply just a small amount of the same formula to ASICMINER, LABCOIN, ACTIVE MINING and BTCGARDEN..

Realistically that could re-value the entire ASIC sector.

If Avalon is worth ballpark $400 million+ what should the rest of the sector be worth? A LOT more then what the companies are today, that's for sure.
member
Activity: 210
Merit: 10
UPDATE: Regarding my purchasing shares in Labcoin I up just wanted to point out that I am not privy to insider information (I function as marketing/support resource) and my motives behind buying shares is/was based on my own belief that Labcoin is undervalued at this point and that the Avalon news initially "scared" a lot of ASIC companies share holders.

I think you should not talk about buying/selling of labcoin stocks, as team member of  labcoin. It's just misleading.

I'm more interested in the 3M private shares, what's your plan to ensure the shareholders that you will not sell into market, not just by saying.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
$200m should be plenty of money to get on the waiting list for 0.20nm.

But initial costs will be high, seems like it would be much cheaper to simply make 50% more 28nm chips.

I suspect $200m figure might actually be one thing that was taken from the older articles. It just makes no sense, unless they think the price of bitcoin is going to totally explode.

No matter how I look at this, IF the investment is indeed $200 million that is nothing more than a HUGE bet on very fast and sharp increase in Bitcon value.

Why? Because almost no matter the technology used, to actually make a sustainable profit off $200 invested Avalon would have to hold OVER 50% of the network hash rate for a very long time (many years) at current BTC value, a calculation I think no VC would be willing to bet on (Not onto mention the huge risk to the Bitcoin network as a whole).

What this investment really is, is a HUGE bet on increasing BTC value. Nothing else in my opinion. It's someone who wants into BTC on a larger scale then they could reasonably purchase BTC over the open market.
If the story is even legit.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
$200m should be plenty of money to get on the waiting list for 0.20nm.

But initial costs will be high, seems like it would be much cheaper to simply make 50% more 28nm chips.

I suspect $200m figure might actually be one thing that was taken from the older articles. It just makes no sense, unless they think the price of bitcoin is going to totally explode.

No matter how I look at this, IF the investment is indeed $200 million that is nothing more than a HUGE bet on very fast and sharp increase in Bitcon value.

Why? Because almost no matter the technology used, to actually make a sustainable profit off $200 invested Avalon would have to hold OVER 50% of the network hash rate for a very long time (many years) at current BTC value, a calculation I think no VC would be willing to bet on (Not onto mention the huge risk to the Bitcoin network as a whole).

What this investment really is, is a HUGE bet on increasing BTC value. Nothing else in my opinion. It's someone who wants into BTC on a larger scale then they could reasonably purchase BTC over the open market.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
UPDATE: Regarding my purchasing shares in Labcoin I up just wanted to point out that I am not privy to insider information (I function as marketing/support resource) and my motives behind buying shares is/was based on my own belief that Labcoin is undervalued at this point and that the Avalon news initially "scared" a lot of ASIC companies share holders.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
$200m should be plenty of money to get on the waiting list for 0.20nm.

But initial costs will be high, seems like it would be much cheaper to simply make 50% more 28nm chips.

I suspect $200m figure might actually be one thing that was taken from the older articles. It just makes no sense, unless they think the price of bitcoin is going to totally explode.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1004
Not that I am personally that interested in speculation but I have purchased shares personally tonight. Clearly a lot of people are running scared because of the "Avalon news", but I think most people realize that this is GREAT news for Bitcoin as a currency, while I don't think it affects short/medium term mining or current/next generation ASIC at all.

What people should take this investment as is that a LARGE investor that couldn't possibly buy $200 million worth of Bitcoin on the open market is betting FIAT on BTC increasing in value A LOT in the next few years.

There is NO WAY that 20 nm will come out in any quantities before mid/late 2014 (and that would be very impressive) and time-to-market is still more important then anything.

I think the "crash" in ASIC stocks today has been a great opportunity for cheap shares in many companies not only Labcoin.

I doubt Avalon would be able to get any 20nm chips produced in 2014. There will be limited capacity and that will be used by AMD, Nvidia and ARM.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Not that I am personally that interested in speculation but I have purchased shares personally tonight. Clearly a lot of people are running scared because of the "Avalon news", but I think most people realize that this is GREAT news for Bitcoin as a currency, while I don't think it affects short/medium term mining or current/next generation ASIC at all.

What people should take this investment as is that a LARGE investor that couldn't possibly buy $200 million worth of Bitcoin on the open market is betting FIAT on BTC increasing in value A LOT in the next few years.

There is NO WAY that 20 nm will come out in any quantities before mid/late 2014 (and that would be very impressive) and time-to-market is still more important then anything.

I think the "crash" in ASIC stocks today has been a great opportunity for cheap shares in many companies not only Labcoin.

You personally purchased shares in labcoin you mean?

Translation: "Buy! Sheep. Buy!"

Honestly, Lots of winners and losers tonight. Great lesson in keeping liquidity, so you can pounce on weaker hands.

I am just voicing my opinion. And yes, Labcoin shares of course.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Not that I am personally that interested in speculation but I have purchased shares personally tonight. Clearly a lot of people are running scared because of the "Avalon news", but I think most people realize that this is GREAT news for Bitcoin as a currency, while I don't think it affects short/medium term mining or current/next generation ASIC at all.

What people should take this investment as is that a LARGE investor that couldn't possibly buy $200 million worth of Bitcoin on the open market is betting FIAT on BTC increasing in value A LOT in the next few years.

There is NO WAY that 20 nm will come out in any quantities before mid/late 2014 (and that would be very impressive) and time-to-market is still more important then anything.

I think the "crash" in ASIC stocks today has been a great opportunity for cheap shares in many companies not only Labcoin.

You personally purchased shares in labcoin you mean?

Translation: "Buy! Sheep. Buy!"

Honestly, Lots of winners and losers tonight. Great lesson in keeping liquidity, so you can pounce on weaker hands.

I bought some at around .0014 so I price averaged down to .0016 - lets see what happens over the next few days. I want to dump some of these for liquidity reasons.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Science!
Not that I am personally that interested in speculation but I have purchased shares personally tonight. Clearly a lot of people are running scared because of the "Avalon news", but I think most people realize that this is GREAT news for Bitcoin as a currency, while I don't think it affects short/medium term mining or current/next generation ASIC at all.

What people should take this investment as is that a LARGE investor that couldn't possibly buy $200 million worth of Bitcoin on the open market is betting FIAT on BTC increasing in value A LOT in the next few years.

There is NO WAY that 20 nm will come out in any quantities before mid/late 2014 (and that would be very impressive) and time-to-market is still more important then anything.

I think the "crash" in ASIC stocks today has been a great opportunity for cheap shares in many companies not only Labcoin.

You personally purchased shares in labcoin you mean?

Translation: "Buy! Sheep. Buy!"

Honestly, Lots of winners and losers tonight. Great lesson in keeping liquidity, so you can pounce on weaker hands.
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