Topic: Lightning Network Observer - page 2. (Read 13806 times)

coinbase is sister company of DCG
DCG funded most of the work that went into pushing for LN

funny part is coinbase still isnt implementing LN, it is instead just letting light spark connect to it

coinbase isnt anti bitcoin.. its anti stupidity and just hires outside stupidity to keep stupidity at arms length to do its bidding
if you think their aversion to flawed LN integration is "anti-bitcoin" its time you lot learned what bitcoin is, and learn LN balance of msats is not bitcoin
coinbase avoiding LN for 6 years didnt make it "anti-bitcoin". fact is coinbase has the most bitcoin on coinbase keys compared to any other entity

what i see as a plausible business plan/partnership is for coinbase to be the reserve custodian of coin for LN locked pegs and then let some other company be liable to the shoddy payment system of IOU balance on LN

Long overdue move from a true anti bitcoin organisations:

Coinbase the most anti-Bitcoin organisation. Make #DeleteCoinbase great again

Don't forget where they come from, and where they want to go.

and it is done!
Coinbase now officially integrates the lightning network. with the partnership with Lightspark, it is now possible to pay with lightning


https://www.lightspark.com/news/coinbase-selects-lightspark

frankandbeans, no one is saying that the Lightning Network is THE, one and only, scaling solution for Bitcoin. But it's A scaling solution for Bitcoin. You're just putting words in everyone's mouths, spreading lies/disinformation, mudslinging because they won't accept the fact that you have been spreading LIES about Lightning? You have your right to your own criticism against Lightning, but saying that it's a network that uses IOUs is simply wrong and not true. They're Bitcoin transactions that haven't been settled onchain yet.

I've said it before that Bitcoin needs to have its own "Android moment".

Linux was not very user-friendly back in the 90s/2000s (tons of heated debates about replacing Windows on PCs and becoming the dominant desktop OS), until Android came out in a blue ocean market (mobile devices totally displacing PCs for the Average Joe).

Of course we all know that Android is mostly controlled by Google (despite having some free open-source variants without Google Services).

I honestly don't know what would be the equivalent "Android moment" for Bitcoin, but I sure hope it's not a custodial service/LN bank.

ps: What worries me about LN are some Reddit comments from LN node owners that they permanently lost their BTC balance when the other side of the channel disappeared all of a sudden.

I know watchtowers exist, but this adds unnecessary complexity and TBH it sounds a bit centralized.

says the cult leader that doesnt want bitcoin scaling because "LN IS SOLUTION"(in his eyes) because he has repeatedly said "BITCOIN CONGESTION MEANS PEOPLE SHOULD AVOID BUYING THINGS WITH BITCOIN AND USE LN MSAT's INSTEAD"

doomad wants merchant adoption on LN IOU credit(unsettled balance owed) network, but have no merchant use on the bitcoin network because he wants the congestion of junk memes but doent want genuine product/service purchases seen on bitcoin
IDIOT

funny how when merchant adoption on bitcoin quietened down due to cludgy exploits that made bitcoin congested and fees expensive.. doomad didnt want bitcoin improvements.. he just wanted gateways to get people away from using bitcoin

also note how he is still trying to push "LN adoption" and not actually admit LN has bigger problems that actually need fixing
"LN improvements" is an understatement, LN doesnt need a screw driver, it needs a bulldozer and rebuild
(learn from the mistakes of LN's cracked foundations and structure, (rebuild from scratch).. there is only so man times you can polish a turd before the only action left is to flush it)

LN's issues is not just UI related

Indeed.  That's a legitimate criticism.  It's far from user-friendly at this stage and needs a great deal more development in that area.  A platform that's only practically usable by power-users and tech-boffins isn't an ideal outcome.  If the "solution" to that issue is that LN ends up becoming more reliant on custodial services, I'll be rather disappointed too. 

Merchant adoption is a valid metric to judge it by, since people effectively express their approval or disapproval by their actions.  Clearly the evidence shows that people aren't being "forced into LN", as certain nutjobs repeatedly claim.  But if people generally aren't using it for payments yet, then that would suggest it needs improvement to become a more enticing option for them.

doomad slings insults but never uses data, statistics or code to back up his cries
true comedy of doomad being the lead cultist of LN.

but here is the thing, many have used LN as a merchant service via different wallets( rying to find one that fits their needs) and dropped it quick when the headaches appear
LN has more flaws, and no its not just one wallet implementation to blame.. its the overall protocol flaws.. even LN devs admit to it..
their work around's are not protocol fixes, but seeking users to rely on centralised hubs to offer channel balance, because LN devs cant find solutions to the network problems of LN's design

LN (network) is not the solution to bitcoin

other subnetworks will start from scratch offering niche services for different populous, demography and feature needs.. but LN wont be it

those acting like cultists thinking LN is the solo solution to all problems are the lying exaggerating over promising drama queens that should be blamed for the issues people find when they use LN via many different wallets in many different countries but all notice problems

there are many many LN issues.. its not just strike/chivo.. only reason strike/chivo mentioned in recent days is due to the hypocrite of strike (mellor) trying to say those that believe his fake promises are to blame for believing his exaggerations, and i was responding to mellors hypocracy using him as an example..
but that does not mean the only issue with LN was mellor.. there are many other issues with LN, and many wallets and all the lies of exaggerated over promised utility LN wont achieve nor solve the needs of bitcoiners

mellors hypocrisy which is the same silly antics of doomad(over-promising LN utopian dreams of solutions..) but then saying "dont blame LN for failures, blame a wallet or user error"

That sums it up perfectly. I stay asides with Jack. It can't handle the entire populace by tomorrow morning, but it's one solution for micro-transactions.

I'll be honest, though, I'm quite disappointed by lightning network over the years. Not because of the liquidity nonsense argument, or the "custodial wallets". Merchants simply don't accept it, and those who do, see very little activity coming from it. People rather pay in altcoins, and I don't blame them. To run a lightning node, you need to have a Bitcoin and lightning node running 24/7, which is another level of lack of comfort. And on top of that, add that your payments might fail completing sometimes, and that you need to manage your sending and receiving capacity. Simply put, a no-go for the average consumer.

I'd say franky1 is certainly opinionated and overconfident, but that doesn't necessarily equal smart.  In fact, someone who engages in that volume of confirmation-bias and jumping to the wrong conclusions (a process he mislabels "research") likely needs to have their intellect called into question.  Someone who was genuinely smart wouldn't continually make an ass out of themselves by spouting nonsense about LN just because they have an irrational hatred for it.

As an example, if an individual implementation suffered a failure, you don't tar the entire network with the same brush.  People nowadays generally consider 'Multibit' to be a defunct Bitcoin wallet, but it would be wholly incorrect to say that Bitcoin failed just because that single piece of software did.  So it's equally wrong to claim LN has failed just because Chivo suffered a failure. 

A smart person would not try to make such an incredibly stupid argument. 



That's a fruitless line of discussion with franky1.  Even if you invested countless hours, read all the information available, verified all the sources, double checked the veracity of what was written and then formed a different conclusion to the one franky1 has formed, that apparently means you just haven't researched enough (and are supposedly an asskisser and a fangirl as well).  And if you don't have an irrational hatred of LN, it's unlikely you will ever form the same conclusions he does.  So he's always going to be at odds with what others believe.  His ego simply won't permit alternate viewpoints.  If what you're saying doesn't match his delusions, he perceives you as wrong.  Even though his hatred blinds him to the reality everyone else can see plain as day. 

Recognise him for the lunatic he is and don't waste your time on him.  He's just mentally ill.  That's all there is to it.  Top-tier sociopath.

you LN fangirls promise LN to be the solution to all bitcoin woes, where its can do X, Y Z..
yet millions of people tried it and complained and made their countries leader stop using LN for the backbone of their wallet
even their replacement admits they had to re-do code and fix the issues left by strike(your god)

your cultish idol you are still trying to defend has said lies in the actual video we both watched and yet you still say he makes good talking points
FFS he lied to el salvadors president and is saying BS in the video we watched.. and you still say "he makes good talking points" (facepalm)

seems you have no time to learn about bitcoin and technical stuff,..
seems you have no time to learn about the issues your favoured other network has..
.. but always have time for emotional outrage when your dev gods get critiqued about the shoddy subnetwork you lot over promise but under deliver .. even 6 years later of making promises and saying be patient.. the problems still exist

how about learn that people should be reviewing, criticising and scrutinising devs to ensure they dont make mistakes. because those mistakes cause people problems and financial loses..

if you admire a broken network that only limps along, but you want to say its fully functional and working and utopian dreamy operational.. you too are part of the over promising exaggerations which then cause naive newbies you want to recruit think its the solution and then you want to blame the naive newbies you want to recruit for having such exaggerated beliefs, even when its YOU LOT giving them these false beliefs

how about spending less time in crying games and cultish blames.. and instead just learn about how things actually work

I thought that I already acknowledge that there are some third-party custodial wallets... .. so yeah, I don't know the details, and if I had a lightning wallet and I sent my transaction to someone with a chivo wallet, then wouldn't they be able to receive it.. That was the ONLY point that I was making in regards to some of the wallets in El Salvador may have had issues.


I had already heard that they had problems with the roll out of that wallet.. so I doubt that the Chivo wallet is the whole story about being able to transact with bitcoin (and/or lightning network) in el salvaldor.

Yes, I understand that part of the attraction of lightning network was to allow for smaller level transactions, and yeah, maybe that part is not working so well in El Salvador in terms of the feasiblity of smaller transactions and the other problems that you point out that they become less and less lighting network and seem to be like a inside service.. and so yeah, I don't know if I would be able to send from my lightning wallet in those cases... I doubt that the problems with those parts of the programs would be a total death knell for whatever is going on with lightning network in El Salvador, but yeah you could be correct that Mallers's reputation should be undermined based on some of the issues if his company and his systems might have been involved in some of the failures to deliver.. perhaps? perhaps?  I don't claim to have time to be studying into the matters, even if you ended up pointing out some of these matters.



Mallers is still popular, so yeah, maybe he is partly responsible for his product not being used in El Salvador as much as it had seemed to have had been originally outlined.   I don't mind to consider the facts on the ground if some of the matters might not be working out as well as anticipated and yeah there might be certain interfaces that are not working - even though like I originally mentioned there are still ways to use the lightning network in El Salvador or even to transact in bitcoin that might not be so easily accomplished in other areas, especially since El Salvador is promoting the abilities to transact in bitcoin and/or lightning network.


I did not say that I worship him, and it does seem that he has overpromised and underdelivered on several aspects of his product, so there are other people in the bitcoin space who are not very keen on some aspects of Jack Mallers.. .. while at the same time, he does hit on a lot of great bitcoin talking points when he is interviewed in various public media events. .and yeah, he remains pretty popular, but that does not mean that I idolize him.. but I am not completely negative about his motives either.. so you know the expression: "don't attribute to malice that which can be attributable to incompetence."  So in that regard, I am not going to jump to conclusions about malice things have been happening at the behest of Mallers  even if there could be various possible examples of his incompetencies in relation to aspects of the ways that the Chivo wallet as connected with his product was attempted to be rolled out.


Maybe Chivo wallet failed?  I am not sure if LN has failed, because LN is still going.


How do you know these things?  There could also be some disenchantment about bitcoin due to price drops and/or bitcoin's volatility.. especialloy downward in 2022.

I am not going to claim to be as smart as you in terms of the supposed death of LN, and it seems that Chivo wallet may well still be going.  It is just not the same as it was originally thought to be.


Why would I have time to research?  How do you know? I am not claiming to be any kind of El Salvador and/or lightning network expert. I am a participant in this forum with my own interests, and I don't need any fucking assignments from know-it-all patronizing dweebs like you.


I doubt that is even a realistic conclusion about my own response to the Mallers video.  I said that I watched it and I described what he said differently from you, and you seem to be so full of hate and wanting to be right all the time, that you might not be able to accept that lightning nework is still operating.. and Mallers seems to be involved with aspects of the lightning network.  I don't follow him around, yet I still interpreted the short video clip differently from you, which seems a BIG so what.. I already made my response to point out where I thought that you were exaggerating a bit much in terms of what you said about Mallers's interview.  and so I doubt that we need to even go further with the topic.  Each of us made our responses, but yeah, I know you like to pursue matters into the absurd, and that's fine.. I suppose..It just seems a bit much how you can get so carried away with some of the conclusions that you made.. and there is no need for me to reiterate your conclusions..  Maybe that's your point, to just distract with the level of your apparent outrageous responses.

maybe just do some research instead

mellor went to el salvador touting his wares and dreams of how LN was bitcoin (heck even in the video we just both watched he tries to say bitcoin moves across world in seconds. where he is not correctly saying bitcoin takes 10minutes+ and lightning (which is not the bitcoin network) is in seconds)
see how he is the one exaggerating expectations.. MELLOR said "bitcoin across the world in seconds"

so he has lied.. by trying to proclaim that LN features, are "bitcoin"
meaning many people then expect bitcoin to be internationally transfered in seconds

al so the liquidity of LN(available routing pathways) was not sufficient to allow LN payments of msat(its true network feature) which was the backbone of v1 of chivo wallet.. and within THREE MONTHS el salvador dropped LN and had to redesign chivo wallet to communicate with a CEX (alphapoint)

if still unsure dont cry and say you need information and wait for me to spoonfeed you.. go research it. its called google and will feed you in seconds

then you cant cry that im trying to poison you with my spoon feeds(usual excuse people make to remain ignorant, "misinformation coz franky")
so if you are going to try that game, then dont reply. just DYOR

learn independently and you cant cry no more

however if you do want spoonfeeds and not going to make crying excuses after
timeline:
summer 2021-jan2022: strike+chivo (strike=mellor)
sept21-jan 22: chivo wallet had many faults over previous months
january 2022 chivo announces new partnership with alphapoint (strike disapears and denounces any involvement in helping el salvador)

emphasis:
incase you dont want to cry but want a quick spoonfeed heres a 30 second google search

https://slate.com/technology/2022/05/el-salvador-bitcoin-crash-nayib-bukele.html
(note, these $30 of msat accounts were LN inbound balances of 'tempID microchannels" with strike on other end. not actual new UTXO with $30 of bitcoin locked to citizens own keys)

https://www.theblock.co/post/131452/el-salvadors-chivo-wallet-keeps-breaking-and-users-are-seeking-answers
https://alphapoint.com/blog/case-study-chivo/
(alphapoint even had to edit and fix strike LN integration)

.. but hey, let see you reply and cry that you idolise some dev god, and think im just poisoning your beliefs as your lame excuse to ignore real information from actual users(el salvadorian complaints) that tried it and hated the experience..  go continue to be blind and idolise a dev god like a cult and say you trust a guy that cant even realise he is wearing a shirt inside out
or.. realise things are not as utopian dreamy as your dev god make out

..
summary..
el salvadorians thought they were using BITCOIN in summer-winter of 2021.. so when the LN experiment failed. they blamed bitcoin.. yet reality was they never even touched the bitcoin network in that failed experiment. they just thought it was bitcoin due to advice given by mellor.. who was actually offering them LN, which was the failure

..
last point
i mentioned the strike mess-up in el salvador multiple times in last couple years. you had time to DYOR. yet today by kissing mellor ass and believing and salivating at his words without knowing what he is really saying, you are sounding more like a cult than a person wanting actual information

I watched the video too, Franky.

Mallers seemed to say the exact opposite of what you are criticizing him for, or maybe to rephrase that Mallers said that if you can recognize and appreciate that the lightning network was able to transfer from some currency and then put that currency into bitcoin and then transfer to another part of the world into to transfer into another currency without any hardly any costs, then that is an achievement that seems quite powerful that had not previously been achieved...

So in that regard, you (Franky) seem to be a person who is putting your own expectations on the LN, and yeah we all know that LN is not the same as base layer bitcoin, but it also has abilities to peg in and out of bitcoin without creating new coins. and yeah there are seeming to be ongoing glitches, but the LN is still serving purposes for some people who are transacting in bitcoin (pegged to bitcoin) in ways that they might not be able to achieve on the base layer - depending on when the transactions are done.

I hate to even ask you any questions about your solutions, yet many of us can see that LN is complementing bitcoin in various transactional ways...and yeah maybe sometimes it would be better to send transactions on chain..

I am pretty sure that LN is still being used in a lot of places in El Salvador, yet at the same time, I understand that there are a lot of third-party custodial wallets there.  However, if I were to go to El Salvador with my Phoenix wallet and/or my Aqua Wallet (or perhaps my Breez wallet that currently is not charged with any balance), I am pretty sure that I would be able to transact with several El Salvador persons and/or vendors to provide goods and/or services with the lightning network, or even I forgot that I have cash app too, which uses lightning (although surely Cash App is way more third-party custodial than the other ones I mentioned that I have).   We might need to see some kind of source if you are proclaiming that LN doesn't work in El Salvador anymore... ..and some of what is being used in any particular location will not only have to do with the infrastructure that is at that location, but also what individuals, institutions and/or governments might choose to use, so if we go there, there may be some variance and also just individualized choices about whether some of them are using third-party custodial wallets or if they are using self-custodial wallets.

not harsh on expectations.. when we have guys like mellor and other LN people who dont know better exaggerating expectations upfront and then everyone realises when using it that it doesnt meet expectations/promises, dont then double down by blaming the critics for pointing out the failures

even el salvador dropped LN within 3 months of using it and being told it was bitcoin... LN is not bitcoin (sorry mellor LN is a separate network and bitcoin never leaves the bitcoin network)

..
emphasis
if your going to over-promise/set dreamed-up utopian expectations of something(aka LIE) dont then blame the critics for pointing out the lies..

Jack Mallers sends a message to all LN critics.

Sorry, the tweet is from an Italian account and has Italian subtitles, but the audio is in English.
I wasn't able to find a "clean" version.




As usual, despite having that random appearance, Jack Miller is actually very incisive when describing the LN.

Hey, author of the proposal here. Indeed the SCIDADDRESS requires the use of keysend payments but you don't have to receive to a specific channel. Keysend is a "send-to-key" payment where key is the node-id of the recipient, SCIDADDRESS is a simple translation system for node-ids.

 

happy lightning pay day

because on january 8, 2018, the first 'real payment' took place in the lightning network. at that time, a user paid for a vpn subscription at TorGuard
the vpn provider was the first service to accept lightning payments and since everything was still reckless and untested, TorGuard even agreed to reimburse the costs for lost any satoshi

At a glance it seems like it would work as a sort of shorthand for a keysend payment.  But if I understand it correctly it would only really receive a payment to a specific channel?  That could be somewhat limiting unless you had a channel with giant liquidity on the partner side.

On an Italian Bitcoin chat someone higlhited this proposal from an Italian drveloper:

SCIDADDRESS

https://gist.github.com/araspitzu/415876f8bffd90a9d7d6b46a41b8914c


What do you think guys of this idea?