Victorian Era Foreign Policy "Crimean War"
How little foreign policy methods have changed in a hundred and sixty years or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuhec_llrGw
My $.02.
Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine... Revolution. - page 87. (Read 227096 times)
From a wonderful old movie, "The Charge of The Light Birgade".
Victorian Era Foreign Policy "Crimean War"
How little foreign policy methods have changed in a hundred and sixty years or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuhec_llrGw
My $.02.
Victorian Era Foreign Policy "Crimean War"
How little foreign policy methods have changed in a hundred and sixty years or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuhec_llrGw
My $.02.
Are you shitting me? Do you have a degree in history? I know they say that "Rassah is pretty much posting in every thread out there", but this is the most ignorant BS post, I've read this week.
They? Who are these "they?"
I was born in Kiev, I have family in Lviv, I have friends in Kiev, including some who were helping out on Maidan, and I was going to a Saturday Ukrainian school from 6th to 12th grade (like Sunday School, but on Saturdays, and not religious). There I had classes on Ukrainian history, geography, culture, and literature, starting from the founding of Kiev, all the way to the slaughter of the last remaining Ukrainian cossacks at the beginning of the 20th century. For 6 years. So, yeah, I guess I have a high school degree in Ukrainian history.
then at the least you have to acknowledge that the "outskirts" it refers to are NOT "outskirts of russia" but "outskirts of Kievan Rus."
It's a bit weird that some here are even suggesting that Ukraine and Russia are the same country. Kievan Rus was founded 200 years before the founding of Russia, beginning with Moscow, even if it was by the same nobility. Since that time, throughout Ukraine's history there has been a very clear divide between Russia and Ukraine, to the point that Russia warred with Ukraine at one time, and asked for its help to fight against Poland at another. They are separate countries. So the idea that because Russia owned Ukraine under USSR, and Russia was founded from Ukraine, means that Russia should just take Ukraine back, is ridiculous.
Frankly, I think Kiev should have just kept their nukes, and then taken Russian territory back under Ukraine instead.
As for Crimea, it's rather ironic that some are using the word "unconstitutional" and "USSR" in the same sentence. I didn't realize soviet communists gave a shit about laws or rights. Crimea wasn't being "occupied" either. It was a redrawing of political boundaries within the same country, which made little difference, and the borders simply remained after USSR fell apart. Were Crimeans being abused by Ukraine? Does Crimea even have any economic value besides tourism and a naval base?
It's a bit weird that some here are even suggesting that Ukraine and Russia are the same country. Kievan Rus was founded 200 years before the founding of Russia, beginning with Moscow, even if it was by the same nobility. Since that time, throughout Ukraine's history there has been a very clear divide between Russia and Ukraine, to the point that Russia warred with Ukraine at one time, and asked for its help to fight against Poland at another. They are separate countries. So the idea that because Russia owned Ukraine under USSR, and Russia was founded from Ukraine, means that Russia should just take Ukraine back, is ridiculous.
Frankly, I think Kiev should have just kept their nukes, and then taken Russian territory back under Ukraine instead.
As for Crimea, it's rather ironic that some are using the word "unconstitutional" and "USSR" in the same sentence. I didn't realize soviet communists gave a shit about laws or rights. Crimea wasn't being "occupied" either. It was a redrawing of political boundaries within the same country, which made little difference, and the borders simply remained after USSR fell apart. Were Crimeans being abused by Ukraine? Does Crimea even have any economic value besides tourism and a naval base?
Are you shitting me? Do you have a degree in history? I know they say that "Rassah is pretty much posting in every thread out there", but this is the most ignorant BS post, I've read this week.
A total of 2,100,000 Indians lived in the US when the colonizers first arrived. The population steadily declined as follows: (Source: Thorton, Russel (1990).
Old source, and though still repeated, is not true.. At this point, the estimate is that before the plague, America's population was anywhere between 20 and 100 million. And those large numbers (90%+) were wiped out accidentaly, not by a deliberate spread of smallpox.
Revisionist much?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#Mainstream_interpretation_as_.E2.80.98borderland.E2.80.99
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#Mainstream_interpretation_as_.E2.80.98borderland.E2.80.99
Quote
The traditional theory (which was widely supported by historians and linguists in the 19–20th centuries, see e.g. Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary of Russian) is that the modern name of the country is derived from the term "ukraina" in the sense ‘borderland, frontier region, marches’ etc. These meanings can be derived from the Proto-Slavic noun *krajь, meaning ‘edge, border’. Contemporary parallels for this are Russian okráina ‘outskirts’ and kraj ‘border district’.
If you wish to insist that the name Ukraina comes from "okraina," meaning "outskirts" and ignore this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#Alternative_interpretation_as_.E2.80.98region.2C_country.E2.80.99
Quote
Pivtorak starts with the meaning of kraj as ‘land parcel, territory’, attested to in many Slavic languages and states of having acquired the meaning ‘a tribe's territory’ from early in Slavic morphology; *ukraj and *ukrajina would then mean "a separated land parcel, a separate part of a tribe's territory". Later, as Kievan Rus' disintegrated in the 12th century, its ukrainas would become independent principalities, hence the new (and earliest attested) meaning of ukraina as ‘principality’. Still later, lands that became part of Lithuania (Chernigov and Seversk Principalities, Kiev Principality, Pereyaslav Principality and the most part of the Volyn Principality) were sometimes called Lithuanian ukraina, while lands that became part of Poland (Halych Principality and part of the Volyn Principality) were called Polish Ukrayina.
then at the least you have to acknowledge that the "outskirts" it refers to are NOT "outskirts of russia" but "outskirts of Kievan Rus."
It's a bit weird that some here are even suggesting that Ukraine and Russia are the same country. Kievan Rus was founded 200 years before the founding of Russia, beginning with Moscow, even if it was by the same nobility. Since that time, throughout Ukraine's history there has been a very clear divide between Russia and Ukraine, to the point that Russia warred with Ukraine at one time, and asked for its help to fight against Poland at another. They are separate countries. So the idea that because Russia owned Ukraine under USSR, and Russia was founded from Ukraine, means that Russia should just take Ukraine back, is ridiculous.
Frankly, I think Kiev should have just kept their nukes, and then taken Russian territory back under Ukraine instead.
As for Crimea, it's rather ironic that some are using the word "unconstitutional" and "USSR" in the same sentence. I didn't realize soviet communists gave a shit about laws or rights. Crimea wasn't being "occupied" either. It was a redrawing of political boundaries within the same country, which made little difference, and the borders simply remained after USSR fell apart. Were Crimeans being abused by Ukraine? Does Crimea even have any economic value besides tourism and a naval base?
It didn't become Russia. Russia and Ukraine have been separate countries for a very long time. Yes, in Russian there is a work "okraina" whic means "outskirts," but in Ukrainian there is a word "kraina," which means "country."
Revisionist much?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#Mainstream_interpretation_as_.E2.80.98borderland.E2.80.99
Quote
The traditional theory (which was widely supported by historians and linguists in the 19–20th centuries, see e.g. Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary of Russian) is that the modern name of the country is derived from the term "ukraina" in the sense ‘borderland, frontier region, marches’ etc. These meanings can be derived from the Proto-Slavic noun *krajь, meaning ‘edge, border’. Contemporary parallels for this are Russian okráina ‘outskirts’ and kraj ‘border district’.
Hmm. Even I learnt something new today.
As for cartoons. Two can play that game
http://fishki.net/1247319-karikatury-otrazhajuwie-segodnjashnjuju--situaciju-na-ukraine.html
If you want a translation of the texts there, just ask.
How the situation in Ukraine is being viewed by editorial cartoonists:
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/cartoons-unrest-in-ukraine-1.7151923#15
My $.02.
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/cartoons-unrest-in-ukraine-1.7151923#15
My $.02.
Um. Estonia will fall eventually, but for different reasons, and Russia will be watching from the sidelines.
Besides, you are turning everything upside down. Russia is not attacking EU - it's EU/US that have first demolished the legitimate government in Ukraine, plunged it into anarchy, and are now attacking Russia. The only thing Russia did was to respond to the please for help from the majority Russian population in independent Crimean Republic and accepted them back into Russian Federation after 60 years of Ukrainian (what might pass for) occupation.
Incidentally, PrintMule, a representative of VISA in Russia issued a statement that they need to comply US jurisdiction and stop access to VISA network to companies on the US black list.
- Russia filed with Interpol an arrest order for the left extremist Jarosh.
- The illegitimate self(US)-appointed government in Kiev agreed with the UN chaiman about creating a Crimean workgroup and proposed that Crimea becomes a demilitarised zone. (Yeah, right, Russia is just going to pack its fleet in Sevastopol after 230 years of being there, just because some fascist tell them to. Hitler was also intent in taking Sevastopol...)
Besides, you are turning everything upside down. Russia is not attacking EU - it's EU/US that have first demolished the legitimate government in Ukraine, plunged it into anarchy, and are now attacking Russia. The only thing Russia did was to respond to the please for help from the majority Russian population in independent Crimean Republic and accepted them back into Russian Federation after 60 years of Ukrainian (what might pass for) occupation.
Incidentally, PrintMule, a representative of VISA in Russia issued a statement that they need to comply US jurisdiction and stop access to VISA network to companies on the US black list.
- Russia filed with Interpol an arrest order for the left extremist Jarosh.
- The illegitimate self(US)-appointed government in Kiev agreed with the UN chaiman about creating a Crimean workgroup and proposed that Crimea becomes a demilitarised zone. (Yeah, right, Russia is just going to pack its fleet in Sevastopol after 230 years of being there, just because some fascist tell them to. Hitler was also intent in taking Sevastopol...)
The potential other reason Russia is attacking the EU is because the EU fucked over the Russians in Cyprus. Russia nor the UN was consulted. Don't piss off the Russian oligarchs.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-02/martin-armstrong-warns-europeans-coming-expropriation-10-everyones-accounts
Russia smells weakness. They know the West can't do sanctions nor war with Russia, lest the global debt bomb comes crashing down due to an accelerated implosion of global trade.
Russia won't stop with Crimea. They will pause, but this isn't the last of it. Estonia will fall eventually.
The missing Malaysian plane is probably connected to this.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-02/martin-armstrong-warns-europeans-coming-expropriation-10-everyones-accounts
Quote
When they took the funds in Cyprus, the EU did not distinguish between European, American, or Russian accounts.
Russia smells weakness. They know the West can't do sanctions nor war with Russia, lest the global debt bomb comes crashing down due to an accelerated implosion of global trade.
Russia won't stop with Crimea. They will pause, but this isn't the last of it. Estonia will fall eventually.
The missing Malaysian plane is probably connected to this.
Until this point I was thinking that Visa and MasterCard are European and American companies. It turns out that actually it's American monopoly. This kinda sucks no? Because both of those companies discredited themselves today, and we do not have any alternative. Lets say that there are tensions between US and EU tomorrow - are there going to be similar sanctions? USA has to much saying in these matters, overvalued petrodollar and now this. Everyone should dump the dollar in favor of, if not bitcoin, then, let's say - Swiss francs.
Some more news:
- Coup government in Kiev signed a partial agreement with EU about Ukrainian integration into EU. (http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1064745?utm_medium=rss20)
- Medvedev appraises Ukrainian economic debt to Russia to be 16 billion dollars. (http://www.forbes.ru/news/252625-medvedev-otsenil-dolg-ukrainy-pered-rossiei-v-16-mlrd)
- Putin humorously promised to open an account in Bank of Russia, which he described as an "average-sized bank" that got hit by US sanctions. (http://ria.ru/politics/20140321/1000508084.html)
And an interesting report to read at a leisurely pace:
http://www.infowars.com/bbc-now-admits-armed-nazis-led-revolution-in-kiev-ukraine/
Excerpt:
- Coup government in Kiev signed a partial agreement with EU about Ukrainian integration into EU. (http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1064745?utm_medium=rss20)
- Medvedev appraises Ukrainian economic debt to Russia to be 16 billion dollars. (http://www.forbes.ru/news/252625-medvedev-otsenil-dolg-ukrainy-pered-rossiei-v-16-mlrd)
- Putin humorously promised to open an account in Bank of Russia, which he described as an "average-sized bank" that got hit by US sanctions. (http://ria.ru/politics/20140321/1000508084.html)
And an interesting report to read at a leisurely pace:
http://www.infowars.com/bbc-now-admits-armed-nazis-led-revolution-in-kiev-ukraine/
Excerpt:
Quote
The BBC’s sudden “honesty” regarding brigades of armed Nazis infesting western Ukraine, however, is not the result of the British state propaganda arm examining its journalistic conscience, but rather an attempt to throw off extremist thugs that will only, from now on, become a liability for the West’s ambitions in the Eastern European nation.
The West would most likely prefer to replace armed Neo-Nazis with NATO forces, professional mercenaries, and a proxy force of Ukrainians trained and led by Western special forces and intelligence operatives.
Just as the West has done in Afghanistan, where it used sectarian extremists and terrorists to wage a proxy war against the Soviet Union in the 1980′s, only to end up turning on their “allies” from 2001 onward – the West will use the Neo-Nazis of Kiev only for as long as absolutely necessary before turning on them and dumping them. The BBC’s short piece exposing the repugnant nature of the forces that in fact led the so-called “Euromaidan” uprising is perhaps the first step toward achieving this goal.
The West would most likely prefer to replace armed Neo-Nazis with NATO forces, professional mercenaries, and a proxy force of Ukrainians trained and led by Western special forces and intelligence operatives.
Just as the West has done in Afghanistan, where it used sectarian extremists and terrorists to wage a proxy war against the Soviet Union in the 1980′s, only to end up turning on their “allies” from 2001 onward – the West will use the Neo-Nazis of Kiev only for as long as absolutely necessary before turning on them and dumping them. The BBC’s short piece exposing the repugnant nature of the forces that in fact led the so-called “Euromaidan” uprising is perhaps the first step toward achieving this goal.
No, Soviet Union collapsed because of economic inefficiencies.
To be specific with the failure of price discovery mechanism 
Soviet Union fell apart because of an oversized war machine, where most of country's production went towards feeding that beast
Soviet Union collapsed after the crude oil prices nosedived. Don't invent any new theories.
No, Soviet Union collapsed because of economic inefficiencies. Has nothing to do with oversized war machine or oil prices.
Plus, as I mentioned earlier, the term "Ukraine" means "on the border", "on the edge", which explains that map pretty well - the territories on the Southern borders/edge of what was Keiv Rus, and became Russia, with time stated to be referred to as Укpaинa ("Ukraina"). Not to put down Ukrainians, in Russian there is an everyday derived word, oкpaинa ("okraina"), which means "outskirts", "suburbs".
It didn't become Russia. Russia and Ukraine have been separate countries for a very long time. Yes, in Russian there is a work "okraina" whic means "outskirts," but in Ukrainian there is a word "kraina," which means "country." I suspect Russians have been trying to turn "Ukraina" into something similar to "okraina" for quite some time, but that's not the meaning. Also, when Kievan Rus broke apart in 12th century, Russia was still fairly far away, as a separate country. Only time Kiev or it's borders were considered part of Russia or Poland was when Ukraine was temporarily conquered by them. Otherwise it was still a separate country, before and after (and now). I'm sure Russia would love to clam that Ukraine is just a borderland of their own territory, and take it "back" as it had it under USSR, but, no thanks :/
No one is planning on taking Ukraina anywhere and turning it into "okraina" (sorry, forgot about the US/EU plans there for a second).
As for the word games (word history), true, interpretations can vary to suite the needs of the moment. By the way, Russian has a word "kraj", which has two meanings: both "edge" and "place" (as in "rodnoj kraj" - "home place").
You are also right in that Ukraina didn't become Russia, it never seized being it, though the political "elite" tugged and drew people populating these lands in different directions. Still, when people speak of "the mother of all Russian towns", they don't mean Moskva, then mean Kiev.
Soviet Union fell apart because of an oversized war machine, where most of country's production went towards feeding that beast
Soviet Union collapsed after the crude oil prices nosedived. Don't invent any new theories.
I am not inventing a new theory, I am stating the obvious. The oil prices were the death knell, yet over-the-top spendings in the military sector, coupled with total neglect for people's needs (deficit
) over a prolonged period of time created a tension that was waiting for a trigger factor.You should stop trying to teach real history to those whose minds have been infected with rivionist history.
Who give you the monopoly for real history?
I don't want any brainwashed Americans to teach me history.
Well, non-native Americans seem to think that they have an exclusive right to the history of the land they are living on. They also seem to think that they have an exclusive right to the history of native Slavic people of Eastern and Central Europe. Oh, the irony.
In minor news:
- VISA and MasterCard stopped without any explanations payment processing for people who use two banks whose owners ended up on the sanctions list. (Now we know that VISA and MasterCasrd are owned by the same people who in tern are owned by the Western governments)
- http://rt.com/news/eu-sanctions-russia-ukraine-197/ (Merkel starts sounding desperate)
You should stop trying to teach real history to those whose minds have been infected with rivionist history.
Who give you the monopoly for real history?
I don't want any brainwashed Americans to teach me history.
The Indians also would have been the natural majority of the US, if they were not killed off by the colonists.
Not true. Over 90% of the natives died as a result of a plague brought by the first explorers, way before most of the settlers got here.
What load of BS? It was the colonists who deliberately spread smallpox and plague to exterminate the natives.
A total of 2,100,000 Indians lived in the US when the colonizers first arrived. The population steadily declined as follows: (Source: Thorton, Russel (1990). American Indian holocaust and survival: a population history since 1492)
1700: 1,500,000
1800: 600,000
1890: 250,000
After 1890, the population slowly increased due to access to quality medicare and now the population stands at around 2 million.
The Indians also would have been the natural majority of the US, if they were not killed off by the colonists.
Not true. Over 90% of the natives died as a result of a plague brought by the first explorers, way before most of the settlers got here. It was a literal apocalypse:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html
You should stop trying to teach real history to those whose minds have been infected with rivionist history.
Doing so will only give you a headache.
My $.02.
The Indians also would have been the natural majority of the US, if they were not killed off by the colonists.
Not true. Over 90% of the natives died as a result of a plague brought by the first explorers, way before most of the settlers got here. It was a literal apocalypse:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html
Plus, as I mentioned earlier, the term "Ukraine" means "on the border", "on the edge", which explains that map pretty well - the territories on the Southern borders/edge of what was Keiv Rus, and became Russia, with time stated to be referred to as Укpaинa ("Ukraina"). Not to put down Ukrainians, in Russian there is an everyday derived word, oкpaинa ("okraina"), which means "outskirts", "suburbs".
It didn't become Russia. Russia and Ukraine have been separate countries for a very long time. Yes, in Russian there is a work "okraina" whic means "outskirts," but in Ukrainian there is a word "kraina," which means "country." I suspect Russians have been trying to turn "Ukraina" into something similar to "okraina" for quite some time, but that's not the meaning. Also, when Kievan Rus broke apart in 12th century, Russia was still fairly far away, as a separate country. Only time Kiev or it's borders were considered part of Russia or Poland was when Ukraine was temporarily conquered by them. Otherwise it was still a separate country, before and after (and now). I'm sure Russia would love to clam that Ukraine is just a borderland of their own territory, and take it "back" as it had it under USSR, but, no thanks :/
Quote
Ukrainian Nationalists ... the thugs they are
Yeah, fuck those people who want to have their own country and not be ruled by foreign theocratic dictators!
Soviet Union fell apart because of an oversized war machine, where most of country's production went towards feeding that beast
Soviet Union collapsed after the crude oil prices nosedived. Don't invent any new theories.
Jump to: