ODI cricket and general cricketing discussion [self - mod] - page 1164.

Indymoney

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Quote from: JSRAW on December 04, 2019, 03:08:17 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 04, 2019, 12:53:17 PM

Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

Sorry for the confusion, yeah i was referring to pace because we were discussing speed.

When talking about taking wickets. Indian bowlers not only outperform OZ bowlers but everyone in the world in one calender year. i wrote about this in details couple of times here, can't find old posts so quoting latest post where i was replying to @sithara in our Test thread.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52840499

Quote from: JSRAW on October 22, 2019, 08:47:24 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on October 22, 2019, 02:22:42 AM

but they become paper tigers abroad. The same can be said about the bowler as well. Apart from Jasprit Bumrah, none of the Indian bowlers have the ability to perform abroad in a consistent manner.

Guess you missed the Seamers performance in 2018. Batsmen and captaincy (Selection) let down Indian team otherwise Indian team was supposed to Win in SouthAfrica 2-1 and In England all batsmen performed badly be it English or Indians, Except Kohli and English Tailenders.

Quote from: ene1980 on December 04, 2019, 12:49:35 PM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on December 04, 2019, 11:45:00 AM

~snip
Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

I tend to agree with one point, there is a lack of quality fast bowlers around the world if you compare the older generation England Australia New Zealand ( Not much but still) South Africa Pakistan West Indies had great fast bowlers than the current generation and the only difference i see is that India never had a great bowling unit of fast bowlers and they rely on spin but now they have some real talents.

PS: i do not consider bowling fast as great fast bowling but quality attack.

IMHO Quality of fast bowling is not a problem here. problem lies in the ICC rule books, they keep making rules which favors the batsmen.

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

Edit : Messed up with the quotes so had to repost again...

@JSRAW love your all analysis and work look like you are also real cricket lover like me as few years back I was also too much in love with this game but now have some personal issues and many things around just because of this cannot take too much time ICC kills real beauty of cricket as they bring too much in favor of batsmen and not favoing fast bowlers for some long time its real hurt but now after some long time we have good pairs of these Lethal weapns as your table showing specially from India hopefully they will bring some good interest in future.

JSRAW

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Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 04, 2019, 12:53:17 PM

Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

Sorry for the confusion, yeah i was referring to pace because we were discussing speed.

When talking about taking wickets. Indian bowlers not only outperform OZ bowlers but everyone in the world in one calender year. i wrote about this in details couple of times here, can't find old posts so quoting latest post where i was replying to @sithara in our Test thread.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52840499

Quote from: JSRAW on October 22, 2019, 08:47:24 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on October 22, 2019, 02:22:42 AM

but they become paper tigers abroad. The same can be said about the bowler as well. Apart from Jasprit Bumrah, none of the Indian bowlers have the ability to perform abroad in a consistent manner.

Guess you missed the Seamers performance in 2018. Batsmen and captaincy (Selection) let down Indian team otherwise Indian team was supposed to Win in SouthAfrica 2-1 and In England all batsmen performed badly be it English or Indians, Except Kohli and English Tailenders.

Quote from: ene1980 on December 04, 2019, 12:49:35 PM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on December 04, 2019, 11:45:00 AM

~snip
Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

I tend to agree with one point, there is a lack of quality fast bowlers around the world if you compare the older generation England Australia New Zealand ( Not much but still) South Africa Pakistan West Indies had great fast bowlers than the current generation and the only difference i see is that India never had a great bowling unit of fast bowlers and they rely on spin but now they have some real talents.

PS: i do not consider bowling fast as great fast bowling but quality attack.

IMHO Quality of fast bowling is not a problem here. problem lies in the ICC rule books, they keep making rules which favors the batsmen.

1. In 70s there was no rule of no ball - stepping the line-
2. These days one bouncer allowed per over, In 90s it used to be 2 and before that bowler used to bowl 6 bouncers in a single over.
3. Boundaries shrinking day by day in the Shorter Format, nowadays even 350 runs target is reachable, but in old times 220 was winning score.
4. Quality bats, Field restrictions, Power play, Free hit, etc

Edit : Messed up with the quotes so had to repost again...

ene1980

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Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 04, 2019, 12:53:17 PM

When it came to picking wickets India was leading

The Indian bowlers dominated the series and so is the reason they won the ODI and Test series in Australia and drew the T20 because of match was washed out and as JSRAW pointed out the Indian bowlers are performing well in history of cricket as a team as the entire bowlers they have are able to pick wickets in any situation and hence they are the number one Test team as you need to have the ability to pick 20 wickets in a match and they are capable of doing that.

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Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 04, 2019, 12:53:17 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on December 04, 2019, 08:24:27 AM

~snip
Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

In Test matches the number of wickets taken by fast bowlers.
Australia:
Starc : 13 Wickets
Hazlewood: 13 wickets
Cummins : 16 wickets

India:
I Sharma: 12 wickets
Bumrah: 21 wickets
Mohammed Shami: 16 wickets
Yadav: 2 Wickets as he played only one match.

Did not know this fact thanks for sharing and yes in recent times Indian pacers have delivered a good spell and thus also have helped the team to win the matches and the above stats confirm the same how fast bowlers are playing crucial roles.

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Quote from: JSRAW on December 04, 2019, 08:24:27 AM

~snip
Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

When it came to picking wickets India was leading, not sure whether you are talking about pace.

In Test matches the number of wickets taken by fast bowlers.
Australia:
Starc : 13 Wickets
Hazlewood: 13 wickets
Cummins : 16 wickets

India:
I Sharma: 12 wickets
Bumrah: 21 wickets
Mohammed Shami: 16 wickets
Yadav: 2 Wickets as he played only one match.

ene1980

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on December 04, 2019, 11:45:00 AM

~snip
Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

I tend to agree with one point, there is a lack of quality fast bowlers around the world if you compare the older generation England Australia New Zealand ( Not much but still) South Africa Pakistan West Indies had great fast bowlers than the current generation and the only difference i see is that India never had a great bowling unit of fast bowlers and they rely on spin but now they have some real talents.

PS: i do not consider bowling fast as great fast bowling but quality attack.

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Quote from: JSRAW on December 03, 2019, 10:26:18 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on November 18, 2019, 08:29:40 PM

We no longer have bowlers of the caliber of Dale Steyn, Glenn McGrath and Shoaib Akhtar. The role of the fast bowlers in cricket have been replaced by medium pacers such as Bumrah.

If you want to criticize current system then please use good example. stop living in the past, we have good seam bowlers in the world cricket right now such as Starc, Cummins, Bumrah, Archer, Shami, Rabada etc.

If you consider speed major factor then so called medium pacer Bumrah highest speed is 153 km/h and average is 142 km/h. on the another hand Macgrath highest bowling speed was 145km and average 131km/h.

This was the statement which triggered this debate. As per Sithara007, we no longer have genuine fast bowlers such as Brett Lee and Shoaib Akhtar. As per JSRAW, this statement is wrong and we have bowlers who can deliver at the same speed.

I tend to agree with JSRAW. Even at their peak form, both Lee and Akhtar averaged around 145-150 kmph (90-93 mph), which is around the same speed at which Starc and Umesh Yadav bowls. But none of the current bowlers have managed to touch the 100 mph mark (161 kmph), which was achieved by three bowlers from the earlier generation (Shoaib Akhtar, Shaun Tait and Brett Lee).

Mitchell Starc came really close in 2015, when he was clocked at 160.4 kmph (99.7 mph).

JSRAW

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Quote from: Sithara007 on December 03, 2019, 09:40:35 PM

Quote from: JSRAW on December 03, 2019, 12:44:03 PM

~snip~

Thanks for this information. I never knew that this is how the pace bowlers are classified. But calculating the speed is not very accurate. For example, wind speed, altitude and other climatic factors can also have an influence on the speed.

Calculating the speed is accurate but using the term is not accurate or clear IMO. for some commentators and experts 1 over/spell bowling average is enough (1 spell sounds fair ) but for some stats experts career average matters. it creates confusion because nowadays bowlers use variations (knuckle and slower ball) as match progress, Thanks to T-20 boom.

Wind, climate and most importantly Type of Balls (SG, Dukes and Kookaburra) plays big part in Speed (Test Format).

India use SG in India, Good for Spin bowlers. that's why all seamer use line-length in India instead of raw pace. unless you are Shoiab Akhtar /Starc/Lee.

England,WI use Dukes, Excellent for Seam bowlers if pitch is green and nightmare for Spinners.

Rest of the world use kokkaburra. requires raw speed and best for reverse swing if you tamper the ball silently.

Quote from: akhjob on December 04, 2019, 04:43:11 AM

Then I checked the top fast bowlers, looks like Bumrah doesn't have an average speed above 140 kmph

May be career average in all the formats.

Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 04, 2019, 07:09:37 AM

~snip~
Bumrah is considered one of the fastest Indian bowlers with an average speed of 142 km/h, his fastest being 153.26 km/h, which he bowled during the first Test match of India Tour of Australia 2018, at the Adelaide Oval, outpacing the likes of even Mitchell Starc and Pat Cummins.

Fastest delivery yeah, but overall as unit i would say they were behind.

ene1980

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on November 19, 2019, 12:05:35 PM

~snip
This time the Ashes was very interesting for a number of reasons. First of all a lot of controversy surrounded the England team (and specifically on Ben Stokes), after their scandalous win during the 2019 CWC. And secondly, it was sort of comeback series for Steve Smith, after missing more than a year as a result of the ICC ban. In the end, it turned out to be a direct two-way fight between Smith and Stokes.

You cannot call the England win scandalous as the umpires did not call a over throw decision and then the tie even in the super over and the rules were set before the tournament, i accept it was a stupid rule by the ICC but you have to accept that and the main attraction was the return of Warner and Smith during the Ashes and Warner struggled while Smith was in prime form and he made the difference for Australia to win the Ashes easily.

SaShiRaJaVu

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Quote from: akhjob on December 04, 2019, 04:43:11 AM

Then I checked the top fast bowlers, looks like Bumrah doesn't have an average speed above 140 kmph as per this article.. Sadly none of the top 10 speedsters have an average above 140kmph except for the top 3 (Cummins, Starc and Amir). Maybe the article is giving out wrong info
My search on how they differentiate the fast bowlers didn't actually provide any good results.

Bumrah is considered one of the fastest Indian bowlers with an average speed of 142 km/h, his fastest being 153.26 km/h, which he bowled during the first Test match of India Tour of Australia 2018, at the Adelaide Oval, outpacing the likes of even Mitchell Starc and Pat Cummins.

Here is the wiki source

I have watched Jasprit Bumrah bowl in the last two foreign trips in Test and he was clocking over 140 to 147 km/h on a regular basis and you call him a fast bowler if someone is clocking above 140 km/h on an average.

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I remember Bumrah's name showing as Right Arm Fast Medium in the TV screens. So did a quick Google search, you would be surprised to see the results

But all sports websites like Cricbuzz, epsnsports etc claim him as Right Arm Fast Bowler.

Then I checked the top fast bowlers, looks like Bumrah doesn't have an average speed above 140 kmph as per this article.. Sadly none of the top 10 speedsters have an average above 140kmph except for the top 3 (Cummins, Starc and Amir). Maybe the article is giving out wrong info
My search on how they differentiate the fast bowlers didn't actually provide any good results.

So, it's still not clear on how they differentiate fast, fast medium and medium fast. But it's fast > fast medium > medium fast

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Quote from: JSRAW on December 03, 2019, 12:44:03 PM

This is scam IMO lol, For example In last English Tour All Indian seamer bowled fast in comparison of English bowlers still they were showing Indian bowlers as Medium Pacer and Their bowlers Fast.

That is funny and i did not notice this, the television channel directs the match stats that is being displayed in the screen but India does have some genuine quick bowlers, apart from Bhuvneshwar Kumar the rest of the bowlers are capable to bowl at over 140 Km/hr and they pitch the bowl at the right areas and so is the reason they are lethal. Next series i will watch their average speed since this has become a topic here Cheesy

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Quote from: JSRAW on December 03, 2019, 12:44:03 PM

Test Cricket

FastBowler : 140 km/h average and top speed 145+ (Cummins, Starc, Bumrah,Shami, Umesh , Rabada, Ferguson,Boult,Archer,Mark Wood,Oshane Thomas)
Fast medium: Minimum 130 km/h average and Top speed 145km/h (Mustafizur Rahman, Ishant etc)
Medium Fast : Minimum 120Km/h average and Top speed 135-140 km/h (Bhuvneswar,Mohammad Abbas etc )

Thanks for this information. I never knew that this is how the pace bowlers are classified. But calculating the speed is not very accurate. For example, wind speed, altitude and other climatic factors can also have an influence on the speed. Also, there can be a difference while using different equipment. Anyway.. I need to check the average speed of the Indian bowlers during the next series. I have seen top speeds in excess of 145 regularly, but I am not sure their average speed is greater than 140 kmph.

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Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 03, 2019, 12:30:11 PM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on December 03, 2019, 11:01:37 AM

^^^ I am not sure how they classify the pace bowlers (medium, medium fast, fast medium, fast), but I have never seen Bumrah being classified as a fast bowler. He is always shown as a medium pacer. On the other hand, Starc and Cummins are some of the bowlers who are classified as genuine fast bowlers. Also, among the Indian bowlers Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron are being regarded as the fastest bowlers.

Hope this helps, Jasprit Bumrah is a fast bowler who clocks over 140 Km/h and hence he is called as a fast bowler and not a medium pacer, he might not have a fast run up nor action but the ball reaches the batsman at a very high pace.

Whatever the term may be given to his bowling but he is lethal bowler who bowls a good York bowl and gets the wicket on those delivery . He is highly rated bowler in all formats and respected by all batsman too and not easy to play as well.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on December 03, 2019, 11:01:37 AM

^^^ I am not sure how they classify the pace bowlers (medium, medium fast, fast medium, fast),

Test Cricket

FastBowler : 140 km/h average and top speed 145+ (Cummins, Starc, Bumrah,Shami, Umesh , Rabada, Ferguson,Boult,Archer,Mark Wood,Oshane Thomas)
Fast medium: Minimum 130 km/h average and Top speed 145km/h (Mustafizur Rahman, Ishant etc)
Medium Fast : Minimum 120Km/h average and Top speed 135-140 km/h (Bhuvneswar,Mohammad Abbas etc )

Quote

but I have never seen Bumrah being classified as a fast bowler. He is always shown as a medium pacer. On the other hand, Starc and Cummins are some of the bowlers who are classified as genuine fast bowlers. Also, among the Indian bowlers Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron are being regarded as the fastest bowlers.

This is scam IMO lol, For example In last English Tour All Indian seamer bowled fast in comparison of English bowlers still they were showing Indian bowlers as Medium Pacer and Their bowlers Fast.

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Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on December 03, 2019, 12:30:11 PM

Hope this helps, Jasprit Bumrah is a fast bowler who clocks over 140 Km/h and hence he is called as a fast bowler and not a medium pacer, he might not have a fast run up nor action but the ball reaches the batsman at a very high pace.

When I watch live cricket matches on TV, Star Sports always label him as "right arm medium". There is no doubt that he is very quick (and that may be one of the reasons behind his recent injury troubles), but I guess the classification takes in to account a few other things as well (such as the length of the run-up). I am not sure about this.. but someone who knows about it can explain the difference between fast, medium fast and fast medium.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on December 03, 2019, 11:01:37 AM

^^^ I am not sure how they classify the pace bowlers (medium, medium fast, fast medium, fast), but I have never seen Bumrah being classified as a fast bowler. He is always shown as a medium pacer. On the other hand, Starc and Cummins are some of the bowlers who are classified as genuine fast bowlers. Also, among the Indian bowlers Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron are being regarded as the fastest bowlers.

Hope this helps, Jasprit Bumrah is a fast bowler who clocks over 140 Km/h and hence he is called as a fast bowler and not a medium pacer, he might not have a fast run up nor action but the ball reaches the batsman at a very high pace.

Vishnu.Reang

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^^^ I am not sure how they classify the pace bowlers (medium, medium fast, fast medium, fast), but I have never seen Bumrah being classified as a fast bowler. He is always shown as a medium pacer. On the other hand, Starc and Cummins are some of the bowlers who are classified as genuine fast bowlers. Also, among the Indian bowlers Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron are being regarded as the fastest bowlers.

JSRAW

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Quote from: Sithara007 on November 18, 2019, 08:29:40 PM

One of the reasons why test cricket has become too boring is due to the fact that those matches in the sub-continent are being played on pitches which give zero assistance to the pace bowlers.

--Wake up bro its 2019 not 1999. Indian pitches changed drastically in recent time under Virat kohli , you don't need to believe me on this please check records of last 4 years or so.

--UAE pitches are spin friendly but you might want to check Mohammad Abbas record there.

--Bangladesh's pitches offer spin but how many matches they host every year? not much..

--Srilanka is a mixed bag.

Quote

We no longer have bowlers of the caliber of Dale Steyn, Glenn McGrath and Shoaib Akhtar. The role of the fast bowlers in cricket have been replaced by medium pacers such as Bumrah.

If you want to criticize current system then please use good example. stop living in the past, we have good seam bowlers in the world cricket right now such as Starc, Cummins, Bumrah, Archer, Shami, Rabada etc.

If you consider speed major factor then so called medium pacer Bumrah highest speed is 153 km/h and average is 142 km/h. on the another hand Macgrath highest bowling speed was 145km and average 131km/h.

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Quote from: ene1980 on November 18, 2019, 06:48:01 PM

Quote from: Haunebu on November 18, 2019, 05:40:32 AM

I was never really a big fan of tests to begin with though I do know there is a certain section of Cricket fans who love it. Also, proper technique is a requirement in all formats.

It hard to be a fan of Test matches unless it is the Ashes, the rest of the matches are boring to be frank but i will not miss the Ashes as we have seen some of the best Test match cricket during that tournament in recent memories, if you are having good hand eye coordination and power you can go a long way in the shorter formats and you really do not need that much technique Wink

.

This time the Ashes was very interesting for a number of reasons. First of all a lot of controversy surrounded the England team (and specifically on Ben Stokes), after their scandalous win during the 2019 CWC. And secondly, it was sort of comeback series for Steve Smith, after missing more than a year as a result of the ICC ban. In the end, it turned out to be a direct two-way fight between Smith and Stokes.

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