Topic: Official Thread: AMT - page 255. (Read 678353 times)

This is certainly illegal in USA. You cannot force a customer to sell his order and act as escrow agent in his behalf to refund him.

@ gummybearsgirl, fill a small court claim against AMT as soon as possible and attach a copy of the text above. At this point that is the best course of action you can take.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0228-solving-consumer-problems

http://www.usa.gov/topics/consumer/complaint/legal/small-claims-court.shtml

*logs out as sirminesalot. Hands keyboard to Grumpybearsgirl*


Grumpy girl

Again, There has been many offers to buy your spot in line with more showing up by the hour. Why won't you accept or even respond?

It's becoming more and more suspicious as to your true motives.

I PM'd you to discuss things since you got ultra defensive about me and my questions, right off the bat. So much for having a rational discussion with you.

Does ANYTHING in my PM indicate me of foul play? Give me a break. You aren't even worth the time responding to Mr. Paranoia.

As for Grumpybearsgirl : I have no idea who this person is and have no relations to them, but she should probably chime in soon about offers to buy their pre-order if he/she wants to be taken seriously.

I sent this message to Grumpybearsgirl on Feb 1st, as you can see.  I got no response.

While following this thread it has also become clear that Sirminesalot has some kind of relation with Grumpybearsgirl.  The user's intentions are not as pure as they want you to think.  See the unsolicited message below:

It turns out that people are already experimenting with sample Bitmine A1 chips:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294235.320

In fact, you can buy the chips now is sample quantity:  http://bitmine.ch/?product=sample-coincraft-a1-28nm-asic

Once again you aren't being very clear  


You consider my #1 and #2 'reasons for a refund' pure speculation - but your counter points are pure speculation as well.

This whole 'bitcoin mining' thing is based on speculation, no one can for sure EVER say that certain hardware will or will not pay for itself during a course of time because the rules are constantly changing.

With that said, I want to ask this:

What DOES make for a valid refund request?

How about "my computer crashed, i lost all my BTC - and i'm getting out of the mining business" or "i found out that I cannot use this hardware with my existing configuration?" or "I just got arrested and am facing some heavy charges, i need the money back to hire an attorney".

If you have any other good reasons, please feel free to share. Personally, it sounds like they might feel any reason to get a refund is a bad one.

You know that KNC pays refunds, without pulling teeth. Don't be dishonest. It doesn't matter what the reason is, giving a customer a refund or return policy is good business. Companies that don't offer those shouldn't be considered decent. Most of what you say is bullshit. Apple will let you return ANYTHING, in fact, if you bought it in the few months before christmas they will let you return it until late january. Good companies do this. Microsoft doesn't sell the xbox directly, and if they did, they would give refunds and returns as well. Quit lying.

Some scammer posted an AMT 1.2 TH/s miner on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMT-Asic-Miner-1-2TH-s-Bitcoin-Miner-Advanced-Miners-Bitcoin-Miner-NEW-/181317735824?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a37611590#ht_1079wt_1152

He claimed that he had two "in hand".

You have to read the rule not the guidance.  The guidance is not explicit (and is subject to the actual rule, which is quoted in full below your text), but what the FTC means by "any option" is a clearly a reference to an option under 435.2(a) or (b).  Look at 435.2(b)(3) for example:

"Wherever a buyer has the right to exercise any option under this part or to cancel an order by so notifying the seller prior to shipment, to fail to furnish the buyer with adequate means, at the seller's expense, to exercise such option or to notify the seller regarding cancellation. "

This by itself does not give the buyer a right to cancel, but instead provides that it is a VIOLATION to refuse to cancel when the buyer "has the right" to cancel.  Section 435.2(c) similarly refers to "any option, renewed option or continuing option to cancel under this part" (meaning Part 435).

The only option to cancel is where delivery is not made on time, or where the seller has knowledge that delivery will not be made.  See Part 435(a) and (b).  

Section 435.2(b)(1) states:

"Where a seller is unable to ship merchandise within the applicable time set forth in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, to fail to offer to the buyer, clearly and conspicuously and without prior demand, an option either to consent to a delay in shipping or to cancel the buyer's order and receive a prompt refund. Said offer shall be made within a reasonable time after the seller first becomes aware of its inability to ship within the applicable time set forth in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, but in no event later than said applicable time"

This seems pretty clear to me that the seller must be "unable to ship merchandise within the applicable time limit" before (b) applies.  (b)(2) is not applicable as it deals with the situation where the time was revised (and the revised time was accepted by the consumer).  (b)(3) makes it a violation to refuse to provide a means to cancel the order when there is a right to cancel.

Note that your reading of the guidance (not the rule) would render (b)(1) superfluous.  Why would the FTC have a rule that provides for a right to cancel a pre-order when the seller fails to meet the time, when (as you would read it) the buyer can instead just cancel willy-nilly at any time?

There is also a right to cancel implied under (a) of the rule, but only when the seller learns that it is unable to meet a future commitment/delivery date.  That may have applicability to Black Arrow, but as far as I know AMT still believes it will make its dates.

Now you are sounding like a rational human and fellow community member...

I agree with that whole (unclipped) post...

Another thing AMT lacks, is exactly what you outlined above... (Still, I blame that on being noobs themselves.)

Welcome home to the world of bitcoins friend! (Seriously, if you want post-purchase mining tips. I am full of all sorts of madness to help ensure you get a ROI fast.)

Yeah,  it is so weird that these folks don't even post photos of their real devices.   That could go a long way.   


It is as if it takes too much effort to upload photos of the product!!!

Being a new user, would you mind taking some good photos of the hardware you received; along with when your order was placed, and when you received it? Maybe even some reviews on the temperature and power consumption / video of it in action.

This would go a long way in helping keeping peace of mind for people awaiting their orders.

On a side note:

I don't think it's the buyers obligation to document their hardware and post it here. Good photos, specs, and data should of been posted by AMT (either here or on their website), since it's product they have manufactured and have sold. The website has poor photos of the internals and externals of these machines - something that can be easily remedied with a decent camera phone and 10 minutes.

http://advancedminers.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/

The 80, 128 and and 180gh models barely show the internals (boards and chips) and the pictures are overall of low quality.

The 220, 320, 520, and 1.2 Models aren't anything but CAD mock-ups (not the final product).

How does any of this instill confidence in a buyer? How does this relay that AMT takes themselves seriously, that they can't even provide the end-consumer with some good photos of the product?

A Troll is someone that is trying to get a rise out of someone for no good reason. I think everyone (including myself) that has posted questions and concerns are looking out for the community, other investors and ourselves. We all have money riding on this, so let's work together to support one another and make sure we don't all end up in a 'worst case scenario' situation.

We don't need to support AMT emotionally on this forums : we have already given support by ponying up the cash to them so they can produce the product.

Speculation is why we purchased the miners in the first place, so it has everything to do with the purchase and relevance.

My speculation is just that. Though an educated one, backed by facts and "previous results". This isn't a stock-market here, or a currency exchange. It is more like a commodity. Fact is, dollars constantly lose value, and commodities, in general require more dollars to obtain the limited supplies.

House on fire... Get fire insurance. Apple wouldn't refund you for the i-7 you pre-ordered either, nor would microsoft for the x-box, nor would your bank give you back a CD at the price you paid.

Your #1 is just an opinion, not backed by anything other than your own speculation.
Your #2 is just more speculation, obviously from an uninformed resource.

I did put my money where my mouth is. Twice, I might add.

For the record... "a few" is more than 2... There are only 4 weeks in a month. That is about 30 days. Like the above stated, buyers remorse is not a "valid excuse" for a refund. Especially on a known risk investment. In a few more weeks, as they stated, a refund would unquestionably be in order. But, as they also stated, the items are on the way. (Shipped and delivered are not the same thing, just in-case you try to argue that next.)

BTW, thanks for the actual law outline. I didn't have time to pull that document with the specifics. However, that actually pertains to "produced goods", not "investments and paid-productions". We paid them to build these for us. We didn't buy goods off the shelf. They also said "expected delivery", which is not a "stone clad shipping date", along with "announced public delays". But that is for a judge to make the final call on. That is how BFL and the other guys actually get away with it. Laws are just a guide, the judge is the final word. (Also on a case by case situation.)

Can we get back on topic now.

I don't defend AMT, I am simply protesting irrational responses in a forum I love to frequent and help. This is not AMT land, this is bitcoin-forums. It is you against the world here. You will never win that battle.

AMT even offered to facilitate the exchange. That is more than any other company has ever done, without pulling teeth. Such a simple and graceful solution to correct another persons buyers remorse. If I still had the money left, from the $24,000 I made off my $2,400 worth of GPU miners I built last year... I would still take that offer. However, I spent my speculations, like an idiot, on other things, after I purchased some THs miners. (Yes, I still mine with my GPU miners, that, at the time, would have been estimated to not ROI for two years. Amazingly, they ROI'ed and then-some, before a year. Just like it has done for the past 5 years, and it will do for years to come.)

That is why I kiss BTC's ass... AMT just happens to be between me and BTC at the moment. I commend them for what they have done, but I am NOT kissing AMT's ass. I don't swing that way. I paid full price, because I believe in supporting those who support us, by delivering. Which is also the reason why I stayed away from the other guys, except KNC.

Two offers have already been made but so far declined.

I have an order for a 1.2 TH/s unit, my order is #962.   A couple pages back, I got confirmation from AMT that I would get the unit around the 3rd week of February.  You likely would get yours sooner.

Hi, for any who are yet unconvinced of the legitimate status of AMT, I can attest to it. I ordered an 80GH/s model and got it already. However, I came on this thread to address the 1.2TH/s unit I have yet to receive. I have been keeping up with this thread and even communicating with a staff member, so I understand there have been delays. I will post a full review complete with photos when I receive the other unit in my order.

If AMT reads this, my order is #847. A response of any kind would be appreciated as I have not had contact in a few days now. I understand the difficulties of starting a new business venture, especially in a market like that of cryptocurrencies. I fully support AMT and their efforts in building a business in this field. Trolls and haters are everywhere, but people without that level of fear and insecurity will realize that someone pursuing their own interests should have no effect or impact on anyone else.

Just thought I would put my two cents in. Also I just wanted to reinforce that AMT is legitimate. I can photograph my 80GH/s unit when I have some time, but as I said I am waiting for the other unit to do a full review. And lastly, I just wanted to know the status or any updates on my order #847.

Hope all is well with everyone in the Bitcoin community.

Now you have two public offers to take over your spot. Why don't you accept and be done with it?

I am up for this.  Tom, please PM me if you are interested in getting your refund.  AMT's offer to essentially refund by allowing me to take your place seems very fair and will help you out at home.   I would love to have two of these but I ordered only one (and I already tried to buy another from AMT already on the hope they would ship both units at the same time as my first order, but they refused to allow me to jump ahead of queue for the second).   So everyone is happy!  Please PM me.

Everyone else should please keep quiet about legal matters that it is clear no one understands.  I AM a lawyer, so let me help out those of you who labor under misconceptions of (consumerist) grandeur.  

First, unlike BFL and Black Arrow, AMT appears to me to be PERFECTLY in compliance with the law regarding pre-orders, which is set forth in 16 CFR Part 435.  In a nutshell, Part 435 requires that (a) a seller must state a specific time within which a pre-order will ship, AND (b) the seller must have a reasonable basis to believe that shipment within that time will happen.  If there is a delay beyond that time, AMT must then (and only then) offer a refund.  Note that the "30 day rule" ONLY applies where the seller does not provide a specific time period for shipment (AMT has provides a very explicit one week window with my order, so it is clear they have a lawyer who read the FTC rule unlike everyone else here).

Here are the relevant parts of the rule:

In connection with mail or telephone order sales in or affecting commerce, as "commerce" is defined in the Federal Trade Commission Act, it constitutes an unfair method of competition, and an unfair or deceptive act or practice for a seller:

(a)(1) To solicit any order for the sale of merchandise to be ordered by the buyer through the mail or by telephone unless, at the time of the solicitation, the seller has a reasonable basis to expect that it will be able to ship any ordered merchandise to the buyer:

(i) Within that time clearly and conspicuously stated in any such solicitation; or

(ii) If no time is clearly and conspicuously stated, within thirty (30) days after receipt of a properly completed order from the buyer, Provided, however, where, at the time the merchandise is ordered the buyer applies to the seller for credit to pay for the merchandise in whole or in part, the seller shall have fifty (50) days, rather than thirty (30) days, to perform the actions required in § 435.2 (a)(1)(ii) of this part.

[snip]

(b)(1) Where a seller is unable to ship merchandise within the applicable time set forth in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, to fail to offer to the buyer, clearly and conspicuously and without prior demand, an option either to consent to a delay in shipping or to cancel the buyer's order and receive a prompt refund. Said offer shall be made within a reasonable time after the seller first becomes aware of its inability to ship within the applicable time set forth in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, but in no event later than said applicable time.

Hopefully that puts the LEGAL issues to rest.  I am not aware of any state laws that are more aggressive than the FTC rule; and the FTC rule has a $16,000 per violation penalty (!!) so it would be a pretty serious matter.  How Black Arrow and BFL get away with their shenanigans I have no idea (maybe they will claim not to be subject to U.S. law) but what they are doing clearly violates the FTC rule (and further, no contractual language can evade this, as it is a matter of U.S. federal law).  AMT has made a clear and conspicuous statement of when they will ship their orders.  I believe all AMT orders have a one week delivery period stated, so that satisfies (a)(1)(i).  To my knowledge, they have not missed any ship date (if they did, the refund provision would kick in, but not until then).  Unlike BA and BFL (and KNC for that matter), AMT has chips in hand, and is building the units.  That would seem to constitute a reasonable basis for believing they will hit their ship dates, which is the most fundamental requirement.

So what we have here is buyer's remorse.  As a matter of law, AMT is not yet under ANY obligation to offer refunds for buyer remorse.  As a matter of business policy, they have said they would allow someone (hopefully me) to buy out a pre-order for a customer with buyer's remorse.  You can argue as a matter of customer service (not law) that they *should* refund all orders at the whim of the ordering party, but very few made to order goods work this way.  Why?  Because if that was the rule then everyone would submit pre-orders with every company merely to hold their place in line, and then demand refunds when something better comes along (or when they have a mortgage payment past due, or a complaining spouse/sig other).  Businesses cannot operate with that type of uncertainty when they have to go out of pocket to buy chips, manufacture circuity boards, etc.  So far, AMT has been fully in compliance with the law (unlike their brethren) and has provided more info than anyone else on their status.  If they miss their ship dates, or if they pull a Black Arrow on us, I will be the first to be demanding refunds and filing FTC complaints.  Until then, there is nothing we can or should do.  

Jeff

No shit, I was thinking the same thing.

Ridiculous.