Topic: Official Thread: AMT - page 256. (Read 678353 times)

What a joke. Again, if you want to build a good reputation, refund their money. Contact them directly, DON'T POST A PERSONS REAL NAME ON A FORUM!!!! and work it out with the customer. How dumb can you be. Did they post their full name here? You really need to hire someone who knows how to respond to customers.

I agree that AMT should have no issue with issuing a refund.

The fact that you think "running this miner is guaranteed to get X amount of dollars over Y amount of time", shows me how delusional you are. There is no way to predict both the difficulty rise or the value of BTC in 6 months. For all you know the bubble can burst overnight and EVERYONE can lose their ass. Not to mention the cost of electricity (newsflash, KWHs do not cost the same everywhere). Don't act like some day trader that has some INSIDE information - you have NO information or facts to go on, just another hopeful investor who thinks he's going to see MASSIVE returns with his AMT miner.

Either way, this has nothing to do with them not getting their refund for an undelivered product. Trying to sell your device post delivery on the forums or ebay isn't a guaranteed way to get your money back either; let's not look for alternatives to AMT simply refunding a customer for an unfulfilled order. She shouldn't have to hustle to sell her miner because AMT deemed that her reason for a refund wasn't a good one. WHAT IS A GOOD REASON? My grandmother is sick and needs surgery? The money I used to buy the Miner was stolen out of my Mom's purse? My house just burned down, so even if I DO receive the miner, I won't even be able to run it? Get real.

Here's a few good reasons to ask for a refund:

1. AMT hasn't proven to me they are capable of running a business properly and I have serious concerns about the product as well as the warranties they offer on my product.
2. By the time I get my Miner it won't ROI and I'll be out my investment.

Your point about refunding BTC is moot, she paid with Wire Transfer.

Since you are so hell bent on defending AMT at every turn, buy her miner off of her now and put the matter to rest. Put your $ where your mouth is.

And bitfury dude in terms of power efficiency. We are not discussing prices at al

We already see where this is going with Tom Wilson's (gummybearsgirl) order. In order to avoid any confusion or possible fraud or hiccups that may occur, we will facilitate the transfer of  Tom's order to someone else. When there is an agreement in place, please let us know and we will take care of the rest. It is up to Tom if he'd like to sell his order, and if he finds a buyer we will act as an intermediary in this specific situation for the sole purpose of avoiding any possible conflicts that may arise from this situation. In general, we do not promote skipping the order que or paying extra for express service. We are not selling a spot in line, just trying to give Tom what he wants without going back on our refund policy.

If Tom sells it for the purchase price: 6,089 (5999 + 90 shipping) or less we will act as an escrow agent in this situation and collect from the buying party and issue the funds to Tom while transfer the order.

I agree here,  if you don't think you can recover the money by mining BTC, then sell the unit the moment you get your hands on it.   You will get more in return.

That is likely what I will also do.

See,  1.2 THs is state of the art,  the only thing better out there is Cointerra and KNC.  But you can't get those until March or April.

Isawhim, it really isn't up to you what a customer decides is a reason for a refund. ANY company worth a damn will refund a customer on an order that hasn't shipped, immediately. Your worthless opinions about the motivation of the customer aside, AMT wants to build a good reputation, they need to start with handling simple customer requests.

Thus, not a good reason for a refund...

You knew difficulty was going up... It has never gone down... period. Thus, the reason is truly that "you just want a refund, just because you don't think you will make as-much." Truth be told, it has actually gone up less-fast than ever projected. It is going up fast, these are faster miners!

However, difficulty is actually irrelevant to the situation. Since it applies to EVERY single miner being sold, being made, and in the future being thought-of. With every new THs model added to the network, there are thousands of GHs units removed from the network. We are near a technical limit here now. We used all available magic to create these things. They are not going to get much faster now. Until Aliens develop new technology for us.

End of the day, this miner will make close to 12-25 worth of BTC-value in two years, and again, it does not matter what the price is now. It matters what the price will be when you "cash-out". What will value be in two years? (That is when the reward switches from 25 coins per block to 12.5 coins per block, and this miner will possibly not make enough to cover operation costs at the time, but still produce coins for the future-value still.) On a safe estimate, that would be about $1200 x 2 = $2400. On a real estimate, price is closer to $6000+. On a hopeful-high, it is more like $12,000-$30,000 on a "modest trend".

Assume the worst... $900 per BTC x only 12 BTC = $10,800 Which would be about break-even with power consumption. (Now you know why BTC is so stable at about $900 now. For the new guys, that is about break-even, for the old guys, they can still go as low as $600 obviously. But now they have cashed-out. Which leaves... $900 as a realistic future value.)

Truth of the matter is... You see BTC low, and you would rather take that money back, to buy more BTC. Wouldn't it be interesting if they only gave you back your BTC as the return, since that is what you paid them with. (But I doubt they would do that.) That is exactly why they protected themselves from pull-out investors, the way they did.

You have a chance for a refund, and even gains now. Just got to sell the thing you asked them to create for you, when you made the purchase, after it is delivered. I am sure you can get $12,000 for it, once it is sitting in your hands. I see people have sold BFL's $1,000 units as high as $10,000. So anything is possible.

And now what? You're their knight in shining armor here to protect them from questions?

Do me favor and go climb back under the rock you came from and let AMT deal with the questions directed towards them. It isn't like you have the inside scoop at AMT and last time I checked you didn't work for them.

I didn't come here to get answers from fan boys that have nothing solid to go-on other than hopeful wishes. I want answers from AMT.

Grumpysbearsgirl: Sounds really professional...NOT! AMT, you don't need to PROVE anything to AMT because you changed your mind about this investment and want for a refund.

It sounds like they want you to wait for the device, run it for months, then get your ROI back + then some. I would really be cautious about letting them talk you into this, because if you go that route - you'll be taking a big risk. You will have gotten your device and used it and essentially squandered your chance for a legitimate refund. At that point you'll just need to hope you can mine that $ back. When you find you won't get ROI or profits, you'll just be out the initial investment without any real chance of getting a refund at that point because AMT could argue they fulfilled their end of the agreement.

You're best opportunity to get a refund is NOW. They have your cash in hand and you have no product as of yet. Think about it!

Perhaps ISHAWHIM and you should PM, and you consider taking his money for your pre-order since he has so much faith in AMT (and what sounds like quite a bit of disposable income).

If you want the money back so bad, why didn't you take ISAWHIM up on the offer to buy your spot?

It's been more than a few weeks, thank you lol. Try over 1 month. The point is, we don't want the hardware. Just our money back. And instead of acting like an irrate customer and flaming AMT, we have been nothing but nice about it.

On the phone, we talked with Jim. He kept trying to convince us that the machines were coming and that bitcoin was going to go up. He even likened our 'investment' to that of investing in a [IRA] CD. We kept pushing for the refund anyway and he said he didn't think it would happen but he would pass that along.

He kept asking why we wanted our refund and my fiance kept saying stuff about how fast difficulty is going up but the fact is we just made a stupid move by sending them the money. We just want it back.

As I've said before, we don't even want the hardware shipped out to us. We just want our money back.

We've tried to keep optimistic about this and like I said, polite, but so far, no refund.

So 20 chips on top means around 1500 USD i am wandering how many chips will they need  600Watts

Any way....I am still taking bets

Some info:

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863
Power usage of 0.35 W/GH in low power, 0.6 W/GH in nominal and 1 W/GH in Turbo mode
Supply voltage of 0.65V in low power, 0.765 V in nominal and 0.85 V in Turbo mode

Please note that while we took the highest possible care in doing accurate and conservative simulations, the real performances of the final product could vary by a +/- 20%

You know that  0.6 W/GH is at 0.765 V in nominal voltage right. Best case scenario  0.6w*1.15 (PSU loss 220v to 12V) *1.1 (DC/DC loss from 12V to .765 V i ) * 60 chips as you suggest * 20 GH each EQUALS TO 910 WATS  
And the above calculation does not take into account PCB losses at all. Then tell me about GOLD PSU, SUPER efficient dc/dc converters and so on
The beauty of it with each added chip they "increase the power efficiency" decreasing the performance of ALL chips
They can not do it or they can but they will be not able to cover their costs because of additional chips added and more complex design. Which means guess what

At 20GHs per chip,   they will need 60 chips.  So if they claim .6 W per GHs they are talking around 720 watts.

Dude,

1.2THs, running around 600Watts.


If the quoted 600Wats are at the wall (220V better scenario) I can make 10 BTC bet that they  will not make it!!! never!
I am talking about mass shipped units. If they put 300 chips (instead of 40-50) undervolted and underclocked there is a slight chance this to happen. But they will not do it on production units for sure because this costs a lot of money!

Just find a reputable third party person like john to hold our coins

Who has the guts to earn some quick money Anyone?

The best dreamed scenario will be arround 1.2 KW at the wall for 1.2T unit PERIOD!!!!!!!!

It is likely the 1.2 THs units will be around 1.1 THs instead of the published.

Cointerra TerraMiner IV was advertised at 2 THs and only delivered like 1.8 THs.   A 10% drop from original estimates.   

This of course depends if the manufacturer fixes the design to add more chips.  Cointerra has much larger chips so it is unable to adjust the design,  however bitmine and AMT have a lot of smaller chips, so if they add 10% more, they can hit their targets.

They don't have to reply here at all. Yet they do.

I fear nothing. I am not kissing any-ones ass. I complained and questioned them, just as everyone-else has. I got my answers, talked to them, and still have to read stupid crap like this in the forum.

What exactly are you looking for? You want a live video-feed from the shop?

They gave us an update. They are coming.

The forum is not where they conduct business. This was a courteous gesture, which was abused, and they rightfully abandoned the crazy troll-thread, initially. Then, they came back, with a PR guy. Who keeps communicating with us. (Then you came and starting trolling the same crap.)

Perhaps you should learn how to be a customer.

1: Buy/Pay
2: Wait
3: Get item

If 3 never happens, then you complain. There is no step between 2-3, where badgering them is a requirement to obtain step 3. Often, it has been my experience that if you do badger anyone, they tend to spit in your burger.

Again, if $6000 was that detrimental to your livelihood, then you should not have spent it on a "Pre-Order", of uncertain fate. It is your own fault if you waited until NOW to get your questions answered. Though, your questions have no real body to them, or they were already answered. Usually, before you buy something, or invest in something, you research it first, and then invest. Don't get mad at them because you didn't do your research and didn't know what you were getting into. (But I doubt that was the case. You seem to be a 100% troll.)

Do you have anything to show from AMT so far? If so, please share with us.

If you think your optimism is going to make this deal work out for you, that's your problem. Other people want updates and professionalism exhibited from AMT. I doubt most operate on blind hope like yourself, especially with thousands of dollars on the line.

And the mortgage payment remark was simply a reference to the kind of money at stake - although most people's monthly mortgage aren't to the tune of $6,000.

If you think the PR guy is doing a great job then you need a reality check. You obviously know nothing about proper business ethics and how to speak and address issues with customers. If anything, the communication coming from AMT (and lack thereof) on this thread have done more harm than good.

The truth is, you are a shining example on one of those people that think raising questions or complaining to AMT is going to make you lose everything invested with them in the end: and that's sad. I can only hope it all works out for you in the end and you don't lose money. If you want to attack others here with valid questions and concerns and ass kiss AMT - then that's your prerogative. To me, you're just another unwarranted AMT fan boy with loads of speculation and hopeful optimism that you'll get taken care of, or rewarded for your support.

AMT : What constitutes a valid reason for a refund? I'd really like to know, and I'm sure others would to. If you can please post photos of the first rigs off the line for us to look at that would be splendid.

I can vouch for AMT on this... They are trying to get their products out as fast as possible.  They know they would like to ship their miners even if their proper boxes are still being built in China.  So be patient and wait for your deadline... After the deadline, it will be shipped to them.  Pre-Orders are no longer in the wait.  Product is being shipped.  It takes time to build your product when other orders are in front of yours.

I had waited patiently and eventually they had shipped my product.  They are no KnCMiner (yet!) with shipping on time but Most Definitely they are not BFL. BFL had me tagged for a long time until I waited over 110 days for my product... did not get anything from BFL and reversed my charges on my CC.  I was NEVER, EVER able to get any answers from BFL.  At least with AMT, they did respond eventually (if you were swarmed with 1000+ emails a day, could you read and respond to all of them in the same day?)

Those who are thinking about refunds... my recommendation is wait patiently or call them weekly for an update... Give them some breathing room so they can build their products.

For AMT: I would recommend adding 3 more people to your staff (Daily rotations of 2 handling phone calls and emails when not on phone and 3rd person strictly with email (no phone).  This way, they can clean up the sales mailboxes and alleviate the A.D.D. for the countless emails available.  Can be minimum wage people handling the emails but it will get cleaned up.

Order #1196 isn't even due for delivery for another week... Asking for a refund before it is even due to be shipped, on a pre-order, is not one of those "situations", few would honor for a refund.

"asking for weeks"... That order is only a few weeks old!

"with our mortgage at risk"... What! That is a poor decision of yourself, if that is your action, buying a pre-order with the HOPE that it will make you money in time to pay a mortgage. You need personal priority adjustment. If you HAD issues with your mortgage, they existed before you made the bad choice to buy a miner. A miner, I might add, that has a break-even (at best), within two months after owning it. If your mortgage is at risk, having gains in the third month wouldn't help much.

But I digress... Don't blame others for your poor decisions, and then attempt to hold them accountable for your poor decisions. They offered us miners, we accepted the terms, and now we are getting our miners.

If you want "off the shelf" equipment, that choice has always been there. Now these will be "on the shelf", and then you can complain how they will not make you rich, and want refunds as bitcoins falls again, or as it rises, so you can get your coins back to trade for more money. That is why all these places NEED irreversible transactions. Because buyers continually try to defraud these places. Again, that was a risk you agreed to, once you hit that SEND or submit button, or made that wire-transfer.

The PR guy is doing a great job. However, he needs to stop replying to obvious trolls, who are demanding answers to stupid questions that don't pertain to him. We don't need you (the troll) speaking for us, we have our own mouths, and have gotten the answers we need. (Even if they are not the answers we want to hear.)

I offered to buy peoples orders directly. No-one took me up on the offer. They had a chance for an instant refund, and passed. So, they must not be too anxious for a refund.

Also, last time I checked, most laws state... "Within 30 days of expected delivery." That is for existing items, where delivery was implicitly stated as a "sure thing". Not for "pre-orders", where it is implicitly accepted that any statement of delivery is an "estimate of expected delivery", thus the term "PRE" before the word "ORDER".

They are not refusing refunds. They are refusing unreasonable requests for refunds, without some kind of valid reason. They have that right, as you have chosen to "give them" money to use, as an "advance", on the creation of an "order" to be "filled in a reasonable time". (Unfortunately, it is not YOU who determines what is "reasonable", it is the LAW. Which, I believe, in most countries, is 30 days beyond expected delivery. That is also in paypal's agreement, and ebay's agreement, and UPS's agreement, and FedEx's agreement, and even your CC's agreement. Which I believe CC's extend to 60 and 90, in some instances, but LAW of consumer-protection rules over most of those aforementioned contracts.)