Police State? - page 11. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Severian

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:00:20 PM

Again, assuming you live in a democracy, that is disagreeing with a law that your own community created.

It's a Federal law. Police states are central government affairs.

Quote

Its not an example of police repression if the police are doing the job that they are paid for. So no - that does not make the USA a "police state."

So the Stasi, the NKVD, the KGB, the Gestapo...not police state entities?

Hawker

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 04:58:02 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:56:22 PM

Saying you live in a "police state" is an entirely different proposition.

If I can't freely engage in one of the oldest practiced human activities - agriculture - because the police will shut me down and throw me in jail for years, it's a police state.

Again, assuming you live in a democracy, that is disagreeing with a law that your own community created. Its not an example of police repression if the police are doing the job that they are paid for. So no - that does not make the USA a "police state."

Severian

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:56:22 PM

Saying you live in a "police state" is an entirely different proposition.

If I can't freely engage in one of the oldest practiced human activities - agriculture - because the police will shut me down and throw me in jail for years, it's a police state.

Hawker

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 04:54:57 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:49:05 PM

Wasn't there a cop killed in Boston recently?

Cops kill and injure far more citizens than cops are killed by citizens. I dislike seeing anyone losing a family member but the sad fact is, the risk of getting killed comes with being a cop. The risk of getting killed by a cop shouldn't be a function of citizenship.

Doing the work I've done in my life, I've known a lot of cops. About 40% of them made me glad they were cops as they exhibited traits one would expect in the classical ideal that all cultures share with regard to what a warrior is. The other 60%, not so much.

Agree though I think 40% is optimistic. But that is a criticism of the police. Saying you live in a "police state" is an entirely different proposition.

Severian

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:49:05 PM

Wasn't there a cop killed in Boston recently?

Cops kill and injure far more citizens than cops are killed by citizens. I dislike seeing anyone losing a family member but the sad fact is, the risk of getting killed comes with being a cop. The risk of getting killed by a cop shouldn't be a function of citizenship.

Doing the work I've done in my life, I've known a lot of cops. About 40% of them made me glad they were cops as they exhibited traits one would expect in the classical ideal that all cultures share with regard to what a warrior is. The other 60%, not so much.

Hawker

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Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:50:52 PM

Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 04:41:20 PM

Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:38:32 PM

You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

When I got my johnson grabbed by the fake cop at the airport a few years ago was my clue. I'm not sure what it takes for other people to see it.

Needless to say, homie ain't flying as long as the Feds are in charge of the gates at the airports.

Watching a cop bodily pick up a kid half his size and slam his head into a stone bollard sealed the deal. I vividly remember the sound of his skull cracking against the stone.

I've stood in court and seen a case against me dismissed as the police had forged the evidence and accidentally had different sets of signatures on the "carbon copies." But there is the world of difference between not trusting the police and in saying you live in a "police state." The latter implies that there are other states that are so much more free that your state is repressive.

myrkul

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:50:37 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:48:23 PM

...snip...

And yes, I'm arguing the minarchist case here. States can exist without being oppressive, though they typically don't long limit themselves that way.

So the question is, what state is so much more free than the US that you feel justified in calling the US in particular a police state while that state is not?

The US, circa 2000. Or any year prior, especially prior to 1791.

1m1nd

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 04:41:20 PM

Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:38:32 PM

You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

When I got my johnson grabbed by the fake cop at the airport a few years ago was my clue. I'm not sure what it takes for other people to see it.

Needless to say, homie ain't flying as long as the Feds are in charge of the gates at the airports.

Watching a cop bodily pick up a kid half his size and slam his head into a stone bollard sealed the deal. I vividly remember the sound of his skull cracking against the stone.

Hawker

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:48:23 PM

...snip...

And yes, I'm arguing the minarchist case here. States can exist without being oppressive, though they typically don't long limit themselves that way.

So the question is, what state is so much more free than the US that you feel justified in calling the US in particular a police state while that state is not?

Hawker

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 04:47:33 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:46:23 PM

However, they do provide a service we need and they are prepared to die providing it.

I have to disagree. They're willing to kill people and dogs to provide the service.

Wasn't there a cop killed in Boston recently?

myrkul

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:42:11 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:39:07 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:26:33 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:21:53 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:17:44 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things. Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not? So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

No, I think that the distinction between "Rape" and "Statutory Rape" is a valid one, the latter being rape only because "we said so." "Rape" and "Forcible Rape," however, is a null distinction, since rape, by definition, is sex by force.

"Statutory Rape" and "Forcible Rape" are both covered by the term "Rape."

Can you get back on topic now? Rape will be illegal in police states just as much as free states so lets not get sidetracked.

The point being, that if we reserve the term "police state" to mean "really bad police state," then we've just accepted that a state, in order to function, must be oppressive.

Quote from: Thomas Jefferson

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

And yes, I'm arguing the minarchist case here. States can exist without being oppressive, though they typically don't long limit themselves that way.

Viceroy

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:21:53 PM

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

Comparing the USA to rape is not successful, please try again. Does not compute.

Severian

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:46:23 PM

However, they do provide a service we need and they are prepared to die providing it.

I have to disagree. They're willing to kill people and dogs to provide the service.

Viceroy

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Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:37:12 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:34:30 PM

It doesn't matter how he sees it - it actually is a relative issue. Otherwise the term "police state" is meaningless.

What definition of "police state" defines it in relation to anything else?

a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures

Viceroy

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 04:24:14 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:17:44 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail." Wink

While this poster may be illiterate the definition remains:

a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures

which does not describe the US in any way.

Hawker

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Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:38:32 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:33:20 PM

Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:30:36 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:17:44 PM

...snip...

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

So its not true now but it could become true if you warn people.

Fair enough.

No, it certainly is true now. You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

EDIT: pictures of armed police on a street aren't necessarily evidence of a police state. It is however a sight that chills the blood of any who have been on the receiving end of politically motivated police violence.

All US police are armed. And when faced with organised crime, UK police are armed too and they shoot to kill with hollow point bullets.

I think what you are saying is that you had a bad experience with the police. That's because you come into contact with them

the nature of their work corrupts and many of them will lie through their teeth in court to get you banged up. However, they do provide a service we need and they are prepared to die providing it. I can't see why the sight of the armed police going to hunt an armed enemy would upset you.

Matthew N. Wright

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:42:11 PM

"Statutory Rape" and "Forcible Rape" are both covered by the term "Rape."

They shouldn't be. Statutory rape in one state/city/country is consensual sex in other states/cities/countries. Forcible rape is pretty universal.

Viceroy

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:17:44 PM

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

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Hawker

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:39:07 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:26:33 PM

Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 04:21:53 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 04:17:44 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things. Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not? So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

No, I think that the distinction between "Rape" and "Statutory Rape" is a valid one, the latter being rape only because "we said so." "Rape" and "Forcible Rape," however, is a null distinction, since rape, by definition, is sex by force.

"Statutory Rape" and "Forcible Rape" are both covered by the term "Rape."

Can you get back on topic now? Rape will be illegal in police states just as much as free states so lets not get sidetracked.

Severian

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Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 04:38:32 PM

You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

When I got my johnson grabbed by the fake cop at the airport a few years ago was my clue. I'm not sure what it takes for other people to see it.

Needless to say, homie ain't flying as long as the Feds are in charge of the gates at the airports.

Topic: Police State? - page 11. (Read 25908 times)