Topic: Police State? - page 12. (Read 25882 times)

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:33:20 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things. Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not? So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

No, I think that the distinction between "Rape" and "Statutory Rape" is a valid one, the latter being rape only because "we said so." "Rape" and "Forcible Rape," however, is a null distinction, since rape, by definition, is sex by force.

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Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 05:30:36 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:34:30 PM

...snip...

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

So its not true now but it could become true if you warn people.

Fair enough.

No, it certainly is true now. You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

EDIT: pictures of armed police on a street aren't necessarily evidence of a police state. It is however a sight that chills the blood of any who have been on the receiving end of politically motivated police violence.

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It doesn't matter how he sees it - it actually is a relative issue. Otherwise the term "police state" is meaningless.

What definition of "police state" defines it in relation to anything else?

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:29:02 PM

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Any country that doesn't throw its citizens in jail for a plant. Iraq under Saddam was freer than the US if using this metric but it was still a police state.

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Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 05:32:35 PM

Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:29:02 PM

Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 05:24:14 PM

Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 05:30:36 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail." Wink

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Like he said, he doesn't see it as a relative issue.

It doesn't matter how he sees it - it actually is a relative issue. Otherwise the term "police state" is meaningless.

Hawker

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Quote from: Hawker on April 23, 2013, 05:29:02 PM

...snip...

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

So its not true now but it could become true if you warn people.

Fair enough.

1m1nd

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 05:24:14 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail." Wink

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Like he said, he doesn't see it as a relative issue.

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Quote from: Severian on April 23, 2013, 05:24:14 PM

I've worked in Finland which is the free-est and the US; both for a year or 2. Its hard to argue that the US is so much less free than Finland that its repressive. If I compare either of them to China, then the words "repression" and "scary" come screaming out but its China that was horrible, not Finland or the US.

Does anyone really feel that Finland is so much more free than the US that the US rates are a repressive country to live in?

One can make the argument that every state is currently unjustifiably oppressive, and i'm sure that is the view held by most people who classify the USA as a police state.

Having personally witnessed the violent police repression of political dissent in the UK, it's hard for me not to view things like this.

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

Hawker

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:21:53 PM

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail." Wink

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Hawker

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I've worked in Finland which is the free-est and the US; both for a year or 2. Its hard to argue that the US is so much less free than Finland that its repressive. If I compare either of them to China, then the words "repression" and "scary" come screaming out but its China that was horrible, not Finland or the US.

Does anyone really feel that Finland is so much more free than the US that the US rates are a repressive country to live in?

One can make the argument that every state is currently unjustifiably oppressive, and i'm sure that is the view held by most people who classify the USA as a police state.

Having personally witnessed the violent police repression of political dissent in the UK, it's hard for me not to view things like this.

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things. Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not? So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

Severian

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Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail." Wink

Severian

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Does anyone really feel that Finland is so much more free than the US that the US rates are a repressive country to live in?

I don't think it's a relative issue. If my government is preventing me from engaging in consensual, non-violent actions or transactions through law or statute, it's repressive.

As the modern nation state and its attendant bank is defined by hyper-regulation and the negation of consent as method of governance, then repression seems to be the norm. The possibility of countering the economic and political repression of the modern bank/state is what drew me to Bitcoin and keeps me in it.

myrkul

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I've worked in Finland which is the free-est and the US; both for a year or 2. Its hard to argue that the US is so much less free than Finland that its repressive. If I compare either of them to China, then the words "repression" and "scary" come screaming out but its China that was horrible, not Finland or the US.

Does anyone really feel that Finland is so much more free than the US that the US rates are a repressive country to live in?

One can make the argument that every state is currently unjustifiably oppressive, and i'm sure that is the view held by most people who classify the USA as a police state.

Having personally witnessed the violent police repression of political dissent in the UK, it's hard for me not to view things like this.

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

Hawker

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Activity: 1218

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I've worked in Finland which is the free-est and the US; both for a year or 2. Its hard to argue that the US is so much less free than Finland that its repressive. If I compare either of them to China, then the words "repression" and "scary" come screaming out but its China that was horrible, not Finland or the US.

Does anyone really feel that Finland is so much more free than the US that the US rates are a repressive country to live in?

One can make the argument that every state is currently unjustifiably oppressive, and i'm sure that is the view held by most people who classify the USA as a police state.

Having personally witnessed the violent police repression of political dissent in the UK, it's hard for me not to view things like this.

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it? Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

1m1nd

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Quote from: myrkul on April 23, 2013, 05:12:20 PM

I've worked in Finland which is the free-est and the US; both for a year or 2. Its hard to argue that the US is so much less free than Finland that its repressive. If I compare either of them to China, then the words "repression" and "scary" come screaming out but its China that was horrible, not Finland or the US.

Does anyone really feel that Finland is so much more free than the US that the US rates are a repressive country to live in?

One can make the argument that every state is currently unjustifiably oppressive, and i'm sure that is the view held by most people who classify the USA as a police state.

Having personally witnessed the violent police repression of political dissent in the UK, it's hard for me not to view things like this.

Matthew N. Wright

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Quote from: wdmw on April 23, 2013, 05:10:09 PM

Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on April 23, 2013, 05:05:05 PM

How do you handle scammers in a non-police state? Just kill anyone you think is cheating for some reason? (That would end up with 1 person left standing eventually)

With respect, Matt, this deserves it's own thread. Putting it in here is just going to get it all dirty.

I think we're past worrying about dirtying up this thread. It will be entertaining to see this guy's reaction to voluntarism.

Oh no, not dirtying up this thread, quite the opposite, The conversation about handling fraud in a voluntary society shouldn't be subjected to this cesspool.

Oh sorry, misunderstood. I'll start another thread.

myrkul

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Quote from: wdmw on April 23, 2013, 05:10:09 PM

Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on April 23, 2013, 05:05:05 PM

How do you handle scammers in a non-police state? Just kill anyone you think is cheating for some reason? (That would end up with 1 person left standing eventually)

With respect, Matt, this deserves it's own thread. Putting it in here is just going to get it all dirty.

I think we're past worrying about dirtying up this thread. It will be entertaining to see this guy's reaction to voluntarism.

Oh no, not dirtying up this thread, quite the opposite, The conversation about handling fraud in a voluntary society shouldn't be subjected to this cesspool.

Matthew N. Wright

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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on April 23, 2013, 05:05:05 PM

How do you handle scammers in a non-police state? Just kill anyone you think is cheating for some reason? (That would end up with 1 person left standing eventually)

With respect, Matt, this deserves it's own thread. Putting it in here is just going to get it all dirty.

I know, but this:

Quote from: wdmw on April 23, 2013, 05:10:09 PM

I think we're past worrying about dirtying up this thread. It will be entertaining to see this guy's reaction to voluntarism.

Quote from: 1m1nd on April 23, 2013, 05:09:16 PM

Quote from: Matthew N. Wright on April 23, 2013, 05:05:05 PM

How do you handle scammers in a non-police state? Just kill anyone you think is cheating for some reason? (That would end up with 1 person left standing eventually)

In a situation where trade is happening..theoretically, both parties agree to submit to a privately operated judicial process to oversee whatever deal they wish to make. There is no monopoly on these systems.

That's the general idea at least. I don't have strong enough views on it to bother advancing the idea here.

So when Tom Williams refuses to submit himself to the private super happy funtime judicial "process" that is non-violent and doesn't force anyone to stop raping you and stealing your money, how does the non-police state handle it? Sending him an e-mail reminder?

wdmw

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