Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 165. (Read 73721 times)

Quote from: TwitchySeal on March 24, 2023, 07:07:13 AM

It looks like another Yugoslavia is planned in place of Ukraine. A draft law on amendments to the Law on Ratification of the Treaty on Good Neighborly Relations and Cooperation between Romania and Ukraine has been submitted to the Senate of Romania. Romania wants to annex part of the territories of Ukraine, which it considers historically its own - this is, in a nutshell.

LOL, you really post this kind of stuff seriously? You're saying that Romania wants to annex part of Ukraine territory, when actually it's just one pro-Russian politician. She is only member of party in Senate, she is in opposition and her word doesn't have no weight. You can find such people in most of parlaments in Europe, but in most cases it's minority without power.
If you want to push agenda that Romania or Poland want to annex West of Ukraine, you have to try harder.

Today she is in opposition, tomorrow she will join the ruling coalition. In democratic states, there are pluses - for example, the periodic change of power.

montaga

sr. member

Activity: 608

Merit: 264

Freedom, Natural Law

Quote from: montaga on March 24, 2023, 01:56:12 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on January 24, 2022, 02:20:20 AM

...............
We are far to off-topic, so this is my last bit. Natural Law in my view is not a complete political choice and the "spectrum" here is quite simplistic and incomplete. The concept of natural law is extremely old, I do recall that even some old Christian theologists of the middle ages argued the existence of an absolute law embedded in the fabric of humanity, etc. But it is absolutely insufficient for modern complex societies.

If you chose to control your own life in full, then yes, you would need to live on your own... even in your own world, because the moment you live with others you have to concede part of that control to a set of rules of convivence. You may enjoy a great degree of self-determination, never a full one. In the extreme cases, all is ruled by the "great Leviathan".

Yes, Natural Law is the oldest Law and override all other laws.
Yes, Thomas Hobbes is very much the "Godfather" it.
No, you dont have to live on your own.
As ever thing is contract (and fact) based you need someone to have a contract with, social contract (marriage..) or otherwise. Contracts rule.

I thought the oldest natural law was based on physical strength and violence.

Well you thought wrong.
You may have heard of Thomas Jefferson Extract from Thomas Jefferson’s Argument in the Case of Howell vs. Netherland

Quote

Under the law of nature, we are all born free, every one comes into the world with a right to their own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at their own will. This is your personal liberty and is given to all of us by the Author of nature.

Natural law is the foundation upon which the U.S. legal system was built.
The Declaration of Independence—asserts that every human is granted unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and it was that assertion that formed the frame of the United States legal system.

Freedom and the right to self-determination is natural and lawful, inherent in all humans and does not regard a state of mind, condition, or national identity. Every human, by free will, is sovereign and can self-governing if he/she chooses to do so.

Natural law is at loggerheads with many as it claims that humans are born with a certain moral compass that guides behaviors.

Flydolphine

jr. member

Activity: 33

Merit: 1

I am surprised there haven't been any threads opened about this yet.

In recent months, Russia has massed hundreds of thousands of troops and other military equipment on the Russia-Ukraine border. It is well known that Russia wants Ukraine to be part of its county, however Russian dictator, President Putin, has claimed that the troop mass is part of a training exercise.

The US and NATO allies are sending military equipment to Ukraine to help repeal an attack, and there is some talk about possibly sending troops to the region.

Update 2/18/22:
It appears there may have been some kind of false flag operation in Dumbas, Ukraine, an area controlled by a separatist group, today, possibly involving an alleged bombing of the car belonging to the leader of the separatist group. It is possible this is part of some kind of false flag operation to create a pretext for an invasion.

President Biden today said he believes Putin has made the decision to invade and will start an invasion in the coming days.

Update 2/21/22:
It appears an invasion has begun

Update 2/23/22:
It appears there are some kind of bombings in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine

Same way he deployed hundreds of thousands of troops over a year ago with the so called aim "
demilitarize ukraine".president Putin had top most on his agenda toppling the government of Ukraine's elected president.he hoped to over run Ukraine effortlessly and seize the capital kyiv there overthrowing the president volodymyr zelenskyy but it's rather mission unaccomplished.thanks to the bravery of the Ukrainian soldiers and NATO for constantly resisting the Russian enemy forces

TwitchySeal

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Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Quote from: montaga on March 24, 2023, 01:56:12 AM

...............
We are far to off-topic, so this is my last bit. Natural Law in my view is not a complete political choice and the "spectrum" here is quite simplistic and incomplete. The concept of natural law is extremely old, I do recall that even some old Christian theologists of the middle ages argued the existence of an absolute law embedded in the fabric of humanity, etc. But it is absolutely insufficient for modern complex societies.

If you chose to control your own life in full, then yes, you would need to live on your own... even in your own world, because the moment you live with others you have to concede part of that control to a set of rules of convivence. You may enjoy a great degree of self-determination, never a full one. In the extreme cases, all is ruled by the "great Leviathan".

Yes, Natural Law is the oldest Law and override all other laws.
Yes, Thomas Hobbes is very much the "Godfather" it.
No, you dont have to live on your own.
As ever thing is contract (and fact) based you need someone to have a contract with, social contract (marriage..) or otherwise. Contracts rule.

I thought the oldest natural law was based on physical strength and violence.

montaga

sr. member

Activity: 608

Merit: 264

Freedom, Natural Law

...............
We are far to off-topic, so this is my last bit. Natural Law in my view is not a complete political choice and the "spectrum" here is quite simplistic and incomplete. The concept of natural law is extremely old, I do recall that even some old Christian theologists of the middle ages argued the existence of an absolute law embedded in the fabric of humanity, etc. But it is absolutely insufficient for modern complex societies.

If you chose to control your own life in full, then yes, you would need to live on your own... even in your own world, because the moment you live with others you have to concede part of that control to a set of rules of convivence. You may enjoy a great degree of self-determination, never a full one. In the extreme cases, all is ruled by the "great Leviathan".

Yes, Natural Law is the oldest Law and override all other laws.
Yes, Thomas Hobbes is very much the "Godfather" it.
No, you dont have to live on your own.
As ever thing is contract (and fact) based you need someone to have a contract with, social contract (marriage..) or otherwise. Contracts rule.

In other news, i kid you not, Putin uses a body double.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6U8KdjXsq8

Slovakia also disposing some military junk
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-03-23-23/h_9adf80477fea62e65721fecda5fdf4cc

BADecker

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Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: montaga on March 23, 2023, 01:09:32 PM

Quote from: montaga on March 23, 2023, 01:09:32 PM

---------------

The Anarchism and self-sovereignty is very appealing, but usually not realistic. We are social animals and would find it hard to survive alone.

Calling two out of nine U.S. Supreme Court Justices, anarchist is a strong statement.
U.S. Supreme Court justices Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch are proponents of natural law.

Self-determination: the process by which a person controls their own life.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-determination
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-determination

Why would you need to survive alone and cant socialize because of your free political choice?

As there is no party affiliation for Natural law, effectively all who abstain from voting or cast invalid votes are pro Natural law.

We are far to off-topic, so this is my last bit. Natural Law in my view is not a complete political choice and the "spectrum" here is quite simplistic and incomplete. The concept of natural law is extremely old, I do recall that even some old Christian theologists of the middle ages argued the existence of an absolute law embedded in the fabric of humanity, etc. But it is absolutely insufficient for modern complex societies.

If you chose to control your own life in full, then yes, you would need to live on your own... even in your own world, because the moment you live with others you have to concede part of that control to a set of rules of convivence. You may enjoy a great degree of self-determination, never a full one. In the extreme cases, all is ruled by the "great Leviathan".

Natural law is basically simple. It is, "Love other people as much as you love yourself." This law is often found in the words, "Do to others the things that you want them to do to you." This second rendition can be interpreted in selfish ways, however.

Before Jesus died on the cross, there was a second part that was more important than the previous paragraph. It was, "Love God above all things." The laws were combined when Jesus died and arose on the third day after. We are again children of God, and we have always been brothers and sisters of each other. Jesus-God has called us His brothers and sisters. We are relatives of God.

Cool

paxmao

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Activity: 2366

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Do not die for Putin

Quote from: montaga on March 23, 2023, 01:09:32 PM

---------------

The Anarchism and self-sovereignty is very appealing, but usually not realistic. We are social animals and would find it hard to survive alone.

Calling two out of nine U.S. Supreme Court Justices, anarchist is a strong statement.
U.S. Supreme Court justices Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch are proponents of natural law.

Self-determination: the process by which a person controls their own life.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-determination
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-determination

Why would you need to survive alone and cant socialize because of your free political choice?

As there is no party affiliation for Natural law, effectively all who abstain from voting or cast invalid votes are pro Natural law.

We are far to off-topic, so this is my last bit. Natural Law in my view is not a complete political choice and the "spectrum" here is quite simplistic and incomplete. The concept of natural law is extremely old, I do recall that even some old Christian theologists of the middle ages argued the existence of an absolute law embedded in the fabric of humanity, etc. But it is absolutely insufficient for modern complex societies.

If you chose to control your own life in full, then yes, you would need to live on your own... even in your own world, because the moment you live with others you have to concede part of that control to a set of rules of convivence. You may enjoy a great degree of self-determination, never a full one. In the extreme cases, all is ruled by the "great Leviathan".

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

---------------

The Anarchism and self-sovereignty is very appealing, but usually not realistic. We are social animals and would find it hard to survive alone.

Calling two out of nine U.S. Supreme Court Justices, anarchist is a strong statement.
U.S. Supreme Court justices Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch are proponents of natural law.

Self-determination: the process by which a person controls their own life.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-determination
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-determination

Why would you need to survive alone and cant socialize because of your free political choice?

As there is no party affiliation for Natural law, effectively all who abstain from voting or cast invalid votes are pro Natural law.
https://ibb.co/DKs7N00
https://i.ibb.co/5ct5dbb/Untitled.png

Regarding the Supreme court...

These Justices have a difficult job. They act for a whole major nation regarding some of the foundational stuff in the nation... the basis for national law.

US law is built in 3 basic parts that all affect each other:
1. Statute Law;
2. Judicial law, sometimes called common law;
3. Real common Law, which supports and is supported by Natural Law.

The justices need to balance all these 3 (4) parts/kinds of law together. They can't use natural or real common law when the cases are brought to them through attorneys and representations. They can only use natural or real common law when people bring a case to them.. unrepresented, and without use of statute law.

Cool

montaga

sr. member

Activity: 608

Merit: 264

Freedom, Natural Law

---------------

The Anarchism and self-sovereignty is very appealing, but usually not realistic. We are social animals and would find it hard to survive alone.

Calling two out of nine U.S. Supreme Court Justices, anarchist is a strong statement.
U.S. Supreme Court justices Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch are proponents of natural law.

Self-determination: the process by which a person controls their own life.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-determination
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-determination

Why would you need to survive alone and cant socialize because of your free political choice?

As there is no party affiliation for Natural law, effectively all who abstain from voting or cast invalid votes are pro Natural law.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: montaga on March 23, 2023, 01:27:11 AM

~

Historically the southern Zakarpattia oblast (Berehove) was part of the Kingdom of Hungary since its foundation in the year 1000.
Later it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire until World War I. It was also part of the "West Ukrainian National Republic".
The "Transcarpathian Hungarians" want to be part of Europe, but are held "hostage" in Ukraine with the created artificial border.
There is a massive natural border the "Trans-carpathian mountain" range with only a handful or roads connecting with Ukraine.

Thats why i am a self-sovereign and govern myself.
If someone wants to be part of Jonestown cult, Covid cult or any other group he things he belongs to, so be it.

Thanks for the historical note, very interesting. I guess there is always a case to create a state or a new country and, in my experience of the world, there is always people willing to promote it - usually to take advantage of it. But still, I think that being in a state, empire or organisation should be just a matter or deciding what is best for people, by people.

The Anarchism and self-sovereignty is very appealing, but usually not realistic. We are social animals and would find it hard to survive alone.

Nobody can make a correct evaluation without having all the info. That's why we need each other... to supply info we don't have.

Thanks to both of you^^ for supplying info that we might not have otherwise.

Cool

paxmao

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Activity: 2366

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Do not die for Putin

Quote from: montaga on March 23, 2023, 01:27:11 AM

Quote from: paxmao on March 22, 2023, 08:19:57 PM

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 04:11:29 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 22, 2023, 08:19:57 PM

Supplying arms to country that you're planning to invade. It just doesn't makes sense. But it can be said about most of Branko posts.

Again, you have problem with reading...I never mentioned invasion

Also, what do you think, is it fair that former 2nd biggest Poland city of Lvov is now part of Ukraine thanks to Stalin?

As far as I am concerned, the decision to join and leave an state is to be taken by the current inhabitants of the place, be it a city, a region or any other. There is no reason why someone should govern you against your will - all this as a principle, it would not be practical to have a referendum every month or declare a state with 10 people.

Anything else is just medieval thinking - e.g. Guy XYZ gave this to this country... was it his to give in the first place? I think you are too used to liven under a leash.

Historically the southern Zakarpattia oblast (Berehove) was part of the Kingdom of Hungary since its foundation in the year 1000.
Later it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire until World War I. It was also part of the "West Ukrainian National Republic".
The "Transcarpathian Hungarians" want to be part of Europe, but are held "hostage" in Ukraine with the created artificial border.
There is a massive natural border the "Trans-carpathian mountain" range with only a handful or roads connecting with Ukraine.

Thats why i am a self-sovereign and govern myself.
If someone wants to be part of Jonestown cult, Covid cult or any other group he things he belongs to, so be it.

Thanks for the historical note, very interesting. I guess there is always a case to create a state or a new country and, in my experience of the world, there is always people willing to promote it - usually to take advantage of it. But still, I think that being in a state, empire or organisation should be just a matter or deciding what is best for people, by people.

The Anarchism and self-sovereignty is very appealing, but usually not realistic. We are social animals and would find it hard to survive alone.

montaga

sr. member

Activity: 608

Merit: 264

Freedom, Natural Law

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 04:11:29 PM

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 04:11:29 PM

Supplying arms to country that you're planning to invade. It just doesn't makes sense. But it can be said about most of Branko posts.

Again, you have problem with reading...I never mentioned invasion

Also, what do you think, is it fair that former 2nd biggest Poland city of Lvov is now part of Ukraine thanks to Stalin?

As far as I am concerned, the decision to join and leave an state is to be taken by the current inhabitants of the place, be it a city, a region or any other. There is no reason why someone should govern you against your will - all this as a principle, it would not be practical to have a referendum every month or declare a state with 10 people.

Anything else is just medieval thinking - e.g. Guy XYZ gave this to this country... was it his to give in the first place? I think you are too used to liven under a leash.

Historically the southern Zakarpattia oblast (Berehove) was part of the Kingdom of Hungary since its foundation in the year 1000.
Later it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire until World War I. It was also part of the "West Ukrainian National Republic".
The "Transcarpathian Hungarians" want to be part of Europe, but are held "hostage" in Ukraine with the created artificial border.
There is a massive natural border the "Trans-carpathian mountain" range with only a handful or roads connecting with Ukraine.

Thats why i am a self-sovereign and govern myself.
If someone wants to be part of Jonestown cult, Covid cult or any other group he things he belongs to, so be it.

paxmao

legendary

Activity: 2366

Merit: 1624

Do not die for Putin

Supplying arms to country that you're planning to invade. It just doesn't makes sense. But it can be said about most of Branko posts.

Again, you have problem with reading...I never mentioned invasion

Also, what do you think, is it fair that former 2nd biggest Poland city of Lvov is now part of Ukraine thanks to Stalin?

As far as I am concerned, the decision to join and leave an state is to be taken by the current inhabitants of the place, be it a city, a region or any other. There is no reason why someone should govern you against your will - all this as a principle, it would not be practical to have a referendum every month or declare a state with 10 people.

Anything else is just medieval thinking - e.g. Guy XYZ gave this to this country... was it his to give in the first place? I think you are too used to liven under a leash.

Branko

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Activity: 2632

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Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 07:17:21 AM

Supplying arms to country that you're planning to invade. It just doesn't makes sense. But it can be said about most of Branko posts.

Again, you have problem with reading...I never mentioned invasion

Also, what do you think, is it fair that former 2nd biggest Poland city of Lvov is now part of Ukraine thanks to Stalin?

LTU_btc

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Slava Ukraini!

Hey, who was talking about invasion? After Russia takes east part, they will annex west parts to "protect" them from "evil Russians". revert historical injustices and such

It's 391th day of invasion and Russia is still trying to take Western Ukraine without much success. If West wants to protect Western Ukraine from evil Russians by annexing it, they will have to wait for very long time because there is no sign that Russia will take eastern Ukraine anytime soon.

Quote from: paxmao on March 22, 2023, 08:16:20 AM

I am not sure, on Poland... well, they have been giving an incredible arsenal to Ukraine. Not exactly what you would do if you plan to "annex" territory from another country.

Supplying arms to country that you're planning to invade. It just doesn't makes sense. But it can be said about most of Branko posts.

Branko

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Quote from: paxmao on March 22, 2023, 08:16:20 AM

I very much doubt that Ukraine territory will be claimed from the west. Ukraine is a good ally, not like "a good friend" but more like a very good strategic ally.

Saddam was your ally too, look what that brought him

paxmao

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Do not die for Putin

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 07:17:21 AM

Quote from: paxmao on March 22, 2023, 06:54:40 AM

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 03:28:10 AM

Quote from: paxmao on March 22, 2023, 06:54:40 AM

It looks like another Yugoslavia is planned in place of Ukraine. A draft law on amendments to the Law on Ratification of the Treaty on Good Neighborly Relations and Cooperation between Romania and Ukraine has been submitted to the Senate of Romania. Romania wants to annex part of the territories of Ukraine, which it considers historically its own - this is, in a nutshell.

LOL, you really post this kind of stuff seriously? You're saying that Romania wants to annex part of Ukraine territory, when actually it's just one pro-Russian politician. She is only member of party in Senate, she is in opposition and her word doesn't have no weight. You can find such people in most of parlaments in Europe, but in most cases it's minority without power.
If you want to push agenda that Romania or Poland want to annex West of Ukraine, you have to try harder.

You forgot Hungary too...all 3 countries lost territories that Stalin stole after WW2 and annexed to CCCP, todays Ukraine

I am sure they are all jumping at the opportunity Branko. They have seen how easy is to take land from Ukraine. You just have to declare a military "operation", send over thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of people, support the international backlash, the tens of thousands of dead coming home in bags, be declared a war criminal, get other countries aligned against you... Who wants to be next?

Now, do I need to remind you that European democracies rarely go to war after WW II? Particularly, they have not waged war against each other for more than half a century.

Hey, who was talking about invasion? After Russia takes east part, they will annex west parts to "protect" them from "evil Russians". revert historical injustices and such

Oh, so that happens after the RF takes the west of Ukraine? Well, I guess we will wait to see if that happens. On Romania and their military might, I am not sure, on Poland... well, they have been giving an incredible arsenal to Ukraine. Not exactly what you would do if you plan to "annex" territory from another country.

I very much doubt that Ukraine territory will be claimed from the west. Ukraine is a good ally, not like "a good friend" but more like a very good strategic ally.

Branko

sr. member

Activity: 2632

Merit: 328

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 03:28:10 AM

Quote from: Branko on March 22, 2023, 03:28:10 AM

It looks like another Yugoslavia is planned in place of Ukraine. A draft law on amendments to the Law on Ratification of the Treaty on Good Neighborly Relations and Cooperation between Romania and Ukraine has been submitted to the Senate of Romania. Romania wants to annex part of the territories of Ukraine, which it considers historically its own - this is, in a nutshell.

LOL, you really post this kind of stuff seriously? You're saying that Romania wants to annex part of Ukraine territory, when actually it's just one pro-Russian politician. She is only member of party in Senate, she is in opposition and her word doesn't have no weight. You can find such people in most of parlaments in Europe, but in most cases it's minority without power.
If you want to push agenda that Romania or Poland want to annex West of Ukraine, you have to try harder.

You forgot Hungary too...all 3 countries lost territories that Stalin stole after WW2 and annexed to CCCP, todays Ukraine

I am sure they are all jumping at the opportunity Branko. They have seen how easy is to take land from Ukraine. You just have to declare a military "operation", send over thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of people, support the international backlash, the tens of thousands of dead coming home in bags, be declared a war criminal, get other countries aligned against you... Who wants to be next?

Now, do I need to remind you that European democracies rarely go to war after WW II? Particularly, they have not waged war against each other for more than half a century.

Hey, who was talking about invasion? After Russia takes east part, they will annex west parts to "protect" them from "evil Russians". revert historical injustices and such

paxmao

legendary

Activity: 2366

Merit: 1624

Do not die for Putin

It looks like another Yugoslavia is planned in place of Ukraine. A draft law on amendments to the Law on Ratification of the Treaty on Good Neighborly Relations and Cooperation between Romania and Ukraine has been submitted to the Senate of Romania. Romania wants to annex part of the territories of Ukraine, which it considers historically its own - this is, in a nutshell.

LOL, you really post this kind of stuff seriously? You're saying that Romania wants to annex part of Ukraine territory, when actually it's just one pro-Russian politician. She is only member of party in Senate, she is in opposition and her word doesn't have no weight. You can find such people in most of parlaments in Europe, but in most cases it's minority without power.
If you want to push agenda that Romania or Poland want to annex West of Ukraine, you have to try harder.

You forgot Hungary too...all 3 countries lost territories that Stalin stole after WW2 and annexed to CCCP, todays Ukraine

I am sure they are all jumping at the opportunity Branko. They have seen how easy is to take land from Ukraine. You just have to declare a military "operation", send over thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of people, support the international backlash, the tens of thousands of dead coming home in bags, be declared a war criminal, get other countries aligned against you... Who wants to be next?

Now, do I need to remind you that European democracies rarely go to war after WW II? Particularly, they have not waged war against each other for more than half a century.

Branko

sr. member

Activity: 2632

Merit: 328