Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 229. (Read 68199 times)

you contradict to yourself from previous post, here:


So, evil government of Zelensky at first want to approve this law, but then it afraid of "an inadequate public outcry". Doesn't looks logic, isn't it? For example, russian government never retreat before voice of people if they really want to approve some laws. Like it was with pension reform in 2018. Despite it was VERY unpopular between ordinary russians, it created a lot of protests, russian govenment approved this reform. So this is how really shitty countries works. Unlike democratic Ukraine, where vox populi is a real power.


 


And more important question: If this proxy war, why russia will not strike NATO, because it's obvious that if such take is true, you need to fight with a cause, not symptoms


This is sad, but even in that example, sides will not be the same. As it was with a Third Reich against USSR/England/USA. TR had bombed London and invaded USSR later, so the vengeance from England (bombardments of german cities) and USSR (occupying german lands and also bombardments of german cities) were justifed. Because it was not they who started all of it.

The same situation here.

Of course... multiple scenarios. The problem is that "testing" the scenario costed plenty of RF casualties and exposed a severe issues with communications, logistics, discipline, moral, corruption... So you bought a ticket to win the lottery and failed. You are now worse off than you started and have demonstrated the world that you cannot really wage a decisive modern war.
That is without even counting the diplomatic backslash.


Assange was not an opposition leader, nor a journalist nor someone holding a white sheet of paper. He was an ex-agent that broke every commitment he had made to his country. I am not saying if he was right or wrong, I am just stating the fact that he violated laws that every civilised nation has for the people who have access to confidential information.



No thanks:

- Firstly, I am not fifteen.
- Second, I could not care less if you decide to leave the forum so your wage has zero value to me.
- Lastly, and in any case, I would rather not bet on people's deaths and countries destroyed.

However, if you are so sure of the qualities of the glorious RF and like high stakes, join the army, you can put your body were your words are. Send us a picture.

However if, as I suspect, you wish to keep "wallposting" and betting from the safety of your chair, you can see my sponsor below, great site, good prices and excellent reputation.

My objective is to let anyone in the RF that is considering joining the RF army to understand clearly what are they getting into and how stupid is to die for Putin. What I claim about the RF army is real. Undisciplined, unready, obsolete material... all claims but little result.

Will Ukraine retake Kherson before new year? I have no idea, but I think they have a better chance now that they understand the RF capabilities and the US is starting to trust their ability to use sophisticated weapons. And there is certainly something happening in the south that looks much more promising than it was a month ago.

So how exactly is this supposed to disprove what I said? Putin has been killing and imprisoning opposition, journalists, etc for years. Regardless if you think Navalny is "real" opposition or not, that's seriously fucked up.


You got it, I'm the idiot on this point and I can admit it. Doesn't mean the Kremlin regime is not fascist though. Someone not being in prison, or not having their property taken, etc, doesn't negate the authoritarian one-party system that eliminates opposition and invades other countries on made-up pretexts.


Not for holding a blank sheet of paper, that's for sure. You remind of this old Soviet joke. A Russian and an American discuss freedom of speech in their countries. The American says "I can stand in front of the White House and yell 'Reagan is an idiot' and I won't get arrested". Russian: "Same thing here. I can stand in the Red Square and yell 'Reagan is an idiot' and I won't get arrested".


That's a good one, I was wondering how you'll twist it. Well done. When and how did the proxy war start? 2014 Euromaidan? 1991? 1945?


Putin's army invaded Ukraine, it's very obvious who the bad guy is. When Ukrainian army surrounds Voronezh and bombs the shit out of it, I'll post the same thing about Russians not meeting Ukrainian liberators with flowers. Is that going to be sufficiently "objective" for you?


There's the fact that in 30 years most of "Warsaw pact" and some former USSR members have joined EU and/or NATO, or are fighting to do so.


An example of a "Ukrainian resource":

https://pikabu.ru/story/na_banknote_nominalom_15_rubley_budet_izobrazhyon_lakhtatsentr_8050822

I don't think Ukrainians give much of a shit 5 months into the brutal war whether Kremlin trolls are true believers or getting paid. It's more of a Russian internal dispute - is the population really so brainwashed like it seems in social media, or is it mostly troll farms.

Reply to suchmoon

I will respond to your comment point by point.

Navalny


Navalny is not an oppositionist, but a naive fool who thought that for his sake the Russian people would revolt. His arrival in Russia from Germany in January 2021 is the most idiotic act. Navalny is an inflated image of an "oppositionist", beneficial to the Kremlin for some time, such as showing that Russia has its own oppositionists. Real oppositionists (such as Alexei Kungurov, whom you most likely have never even heard of) are not allowed to speak on large state information channels. At the same time, Navalny, who was constantly invited to speak on the same "pseudo-opposition" channels, such as Ekho Moskvy, which was financed by the state-owned Russian company Gazprom-Media.
At Navalny’s request, opposition leader Maxim Martsinkevich (who was tortured to death in prison in 2020), was imprisoned. At Navalny's initiative, instead of marching towards the Kremlin, a "sitting strike" was staged and a protest on Bolotnaya Square was strangled in 2013. Navalny didn't campaign for the use of real means of counteracting the system, such as strikes, tax waivers, highway closures, and so on.
By the way, here is how Alexei Kungurov commented on Navalny's imprisonment


Kiselev


You are already acting at the level of instincts, not reason. I even specifically indicated the name and surname of the journalist Yevgeny Kiselev, you apparently still confused him with Dmitry Kiselev. Yevgeny Kiselyov is a journalist in Ukraine who moved there from Russia. You do not even have a superficial knowledge of Russian-Ukrainian relations, but you still climb everywhere to criticize. But this is nothing, the main thing is that something is deposited in your head.

Find 10 differences




Protesters


Tell me, in the United States and European countries, there are no such examples in relation to protesters? What is Julian Assange sitting for, can you answer?


Is this a war or a special operation


This is a proxy war between Russia and NATO with the help of manpower in the form of Ukrainian soldiers. Evidence links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5




Russian troops near Kyiv


Show me at least one quote from the Russian President, his ministers or the Russian General Staff that Russian troops were going to capture Kyiv. This news was trumpeted by the Western media, and then they themselves denied it, presenting it as an "unsuccessful plan of the Kremlin."
It's the same as publishing a fake everywhere that American astronauts are going to land on Mars next month, and then a month later also say that American astronauts failed to achieve their goals.
Russian troops launched a military group of about 15,000 people near Kyiv to contain the Kyiv troops so that they would not go for reinforcements to the eastern part. Russian troops were stationed there until, as a result of negotiations in Istanbul on March 29, 2022, a decision was made to remove the Russian group from that direction. It was after the negotiations that the Russian troops gone from the Kyiv region, which was then declared as "a great victory" for the Ukrainian military. By the way, how are the Ukrainian bayraktars doing there, about whom you were so worried? Something little news about them lately.


Conquered territories


How many cities were recaptured by Ukrainian troops or how many cities saw major uprisings of local residents against the Russian military?


Ukrainian nazis with flowers


You don't even try to be objective.
Of course, Ukrainian Nazis do not greet the Russian army with flowers, but many locals (who are not Nazis) greet Russian soldiers quite favorably.
I must say right away that, of course, not everyone is happy, but there are those who openly welcome the Russian army. According to the Ukrainian government, these are traitors and collaborators, who, by the way, Ukrainian soldiers can execute for treason. Therefore, it is even surprising that at least someone meets Russians at all, because it is mortally dangerous. These people are very brave.
As confirmation of my words, you can watch the video of the British TV channel Sky News. Timecode 03 min 45 sec
Or you can read an article on a French news site in the last paragraph, as French journalists report the words of the inhabitants of Lysichansk:
In addition, here are a couple of links for you to a video from Telegram, how Ukrainians meet Russian soldiers: 1, 2




Second language


The Russian language was abolished as the state language in countries such as Ukraine and the Baltic states, but was not canceled in Kazakhstan. In Russia, there are plenty of national regions where a second state language is adopted. In Ukraine, they refused to comply with the Minsk agreements and give autonomy to the Donetsk and Lugansk republics so that their Russian-speaking residents could study, work and speak Russian.


Russian influence


What official surveys and studies do you rely on in your statements?


15-ruble manual


About the 15-ruble manual is even funnier than about Kiselyov. In fact, it is on Ukrainian resources (which you allegedly do not need) that this term is very often used, so you gave yourself away with your ears.

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Reply to paxmao


You constantly talk in this thread about the future victories of Ukraine and how clumsily the Russian army is fighting. Apparently, you are very confident in the victory of Ukraine, then I offer you a bet with the following conditions:
- if Ukrainian troops manage to recapture any of these cities before January 1, 2023: Kherson, Mariupol, Melitopol, then I will leave this forum forever.
- if the Ukrainian troops until January 1, 2023 are NOT able to recapture any of these cities: Kherson, Mariupol, Melitopol, then you will leave this forum forever.
If you're not ready for this bet, then maybe you will stop your wishful talking?

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Reply to Waradlain


Russia was very reluctant to return the prisoners from Azovstal to Ukraine, which is why it exchanged 144 soldiers, including prisoners from Azovstal, for Russian soldiers. You are quoting some nonsense.
It amazes me that such primitive things have to be explained. Nevertheless, it is not surprising that so many people are ready to believe in the most diverse Ukrainian nonsense.

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Reply to TwitchySeal


As for Kyiv, I commented in this post above.

I also have a question for people here: Why this is bad? I mean in reality de-russification == de-colonization , so why this is bad? Im' living in Ukraine, and never seen that people were forbidden to speak russian. But yeah, new generations should learn their own language, not some imperialistic and colonial "языГ". So this is like: you are allowed to speak russian, but your children will be ukrainian speaker, if you don't want so you could leave to russia.


 


We're listening you, ms colonel of army  


Yep, because they had no intention of taking Kyiv, they attacked from the North and move all their forces as close to Kyiv as they could. Sounds legit


"just pack up and leave" nice sound but shitty in reality. I MYSELF seen a lot of dead russian soldiers on the street borders in Ivankiv, after de-occupation. So, in you mind this is just "pack up and leave". Let me fix you: "Lost a lot of tanks, ifv, helicopters, few thousands of soldiers and then just pack up and leave with washing machines and microwave ovens"


OMG 

'Media companies' that are an interegral part of the corp/gov system have no worries.  Individuals working within such entities are fine too if they stay within the confines.  Readers who limit themselves to the propaganda get what they deserve; a low-overhead brainwashing.

German citizen Alina Lipp is a poster-child for media which is not beholden to the aforementioned corp/gov conglomerate.  She's facing three years in German prison for going to Donbas and reporting to the world what she sees, and there are many in her same boat.  Now Ukraine has taken out contracts on people like her who report what Zelensky/Kolomoyski don't want reported...and people like you are still perfectly happy to clean Zelensky's asshole with your tongue because it's all that you know.


Funny enough, it is 'no different'; this is yet another thing you invented in your mind.  My position has been consistent: The temperature of the earth has been drifting higher since the last ice-age ended.  Go ahead and find something I said which conflicts with that if you want to waste your time.

Edit: https://www.bitchute.com/video/Jeo9JqycGmFr/

No, it has to do with who reports it, and who believes it.  If mostly westerners believe it, and it's reported by mostly media companies that don't have to worry about going to prison for reporting the news, that's really all the information you need to decide to act like it's not true.

No different than your Global Cooling argument.

Ignorant level 10.

'Putin' has nothing to do with it.  It's just an observation of the force structure and tactics applied.  Would apply to any conflict without regard to who is 'right' or whatever.  You are going to remain in a state of ignorance until you learn to separate hard cold analysis from whatever fantasy-land you want to live in.  If ever.  Most people remain ignorant and incompetent for life...which is actually pretty handy for people like me at times.

fyp

If you're going to act like you believe what Putin is trying to get everyone to believe, you gotta be more careful.

That 'part' only exists in the mind of people with a very limited understanding of warfare.

Even at the time it was obvious that the Russians had no intention of 'taking' Kiev.  At the same time, NATO had to divert resources to face the Russians in the area since they couldn't be allowed to roam about freely.  To many covert biological weapons laboratories and that sort of thing.  So, it sucked Ukrainian resources away from the defenses of what the Russians did intent to take and keep.

This is actually pretty basic stuff.  The Russians do seem to have had some hope that the entire country would collapse during the initial phases of the war and having control of some areas around Kiev in that situation would have been handy.  They also seem to have been prepared with plans for multiple different scenarios...a concept which is alien to low-functioning people.  For instance, if there were resistance in the North they would just pack up and leave, and that seems to be what played out.  Shrug.

Did you miss the part where the Russia tried to take Kiev and remove the government and ended up having to retreat?

Found some info regarding captives slaughtered by Russia in Olenivka.



Kudos goes to Thomas C. Theiner.

Well, predictably, it turns out that Russia is involved in the torture of the captive and the massacre in Olenivka, although it habitually denies everything.

"where were you when Ukraine bombed Donbas for 8 years" at it's finest.

Not a week goes by where some high ranking UA official SBU, ministers etc...doesn't get arrested, charged with treason, or accused of collaboration with RU. They have so many holes there that even planning something like this seems unreasonable.


Right, your position is represented under "Because that's just what orcs do"

Which civilized World? This one or this one or perhaps this one etc etc etc ...

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On 4 April, 2022 from UA embassy in Egypt
https://web.archive.org/web/20220714023412/https://twitter.com/UKRinEGY/status/1511047591533985817


Now on 29, July 2022
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-detains-russian-owned-ship-loaded-with-grain-at-black-sea-port/ar-AA106tVo

If I'm having a hard time tracking all of this, can't imagine a typical person trying to make sense of all of this.
Is there at least a consensus that time is on RU side? Or rather, RU stands to loose less dragging this into winter?

The recurrent threat from the RF to anything that is not just letting them kill people at their will is to go one step further in brutality and destruction. The problem with that "strategy" is that the degree of brutality and destruction is already extreme. Filtration, deportation and mistreatment of captives is already happening. Forced nationalization is ongoing.

I am right now watching the film "Mr Jones", it is about the Holodomor in Stalin times. I do not think that Moscow is doing anything better now nor intends to do anything different in the future. Moscow will use any captured part of Ukraine to spoil and buy the kleptocrat's a few more acres of land for the Dachas, as a burnable land in case of conflict and as population to be massacred and kept in check - so that they do not get politically influential ever.  

For now the destruction of schools, medical centres, shopping centres, this is a deliberate attempt to destroy everything that makes a country live and thrive is pointing in that direction (pure wanton destruction, of no use for the war objectives).

I am saying all this because I believe that Ukraine may need to endure, because unless they keep being an independent country, the lives of the people will simply by a tool for Moscow -  a dispensable tool that can be deported, killed by hunger, used as forced labour and politically cancelled. I can only imagine the sacrifices and courage of the people fighting and helping the fight in Ukraine, but without it, there is no future for the people and the future generations in Ukraine.

Unfortunately, and since this is already an armed conflict, they only route IMHO is to use all tools to the maximum efficacy to win the war. If you take a look at the RF army, the weaknesses that are evident come from:

- Corruption.
- Poor logistics
- Poor leadership
- Non-professional / disaffected / undisciplined / unseasoned soldiers.
- Population reluctance to join the army or support the war.

Russia will not run out of soviet era tanks and artillery, but HIMARS seem to certainly be making a difference on the ability to disrupt logistics. I do not give full credit to the British intelligence reports, but there seems to be a good chance on Ukraine actually being able to re-take the offensive, while the RF assaults seem quite stalled in the east.

This touches several of the weak points of RF and can make the war take a different perspective.

 

Come on... Navalny is in prison on fake charges, and many people related to him are under various degrees of repressions. Kiselev Ukrainian propagandist LOL, do you really think everyone's an idiot here.


Right. Bring up Strelkov while you're at it. Some people not being in jail doesn't negate the fact that an ordinary person can be beaten, jailed, fined, and possibly have criminal charges filed for a solitary "protest", which is technically legal but denied by all this "discreditation" bullshit.

Simple question: is there war in Ukraine, or "special operation"?


I was talking about the first month. Which also included a hasty retreat from Kyiv. And the latest news around Kherson aren't good for Putin. Apparently taking territory is easier than actually holding it, who could have known. Damn Ukrainian nazis not greeting Russian soldiers with flowers, is that what this is?


I don't need "Ukrainian propaganda", I've seen the consequences of pyccкий миp first hand. The bullshit about not prohibiting second languages etc is laughable to non-Russians in the former USSR. Ethnic cleansing has been part of Russian imperialism for centuries and still is. There is a reason why most of Eastern Europe wants to get as far from Russian influence as possible. Not something you could possibly understand even if your belief in the benevolence of Putin and other Russian tzars is genuine, and not pasted from a 15 ruble мeтoдичкa.

About the fascist Kremlin regime is from the same opera as about corruption in Ukraine.
When a Dutch journalist asked President Zelensky about corruption in Ukraine, he reacted sharply that only those who lived in Ukraine could talk about corruption in Ukraine.
One of the hallmarks of fascism is the rigid dictatorship of society. The devil is in the details. It is unlikely that you know that applicants for journalism at the Moscow State University, quite recently, could be denied admission due to the fact that they support Putin's policies - this is according to Russian political scientist Sergei Chernyakhovsky. In the Russian Federation there is such a university, the Higher School of Economics, and so there, the post of scientific director is occupied by Konstantin Sonin, who called for the hanging of President Putin, as well as Russian ministers Shoigu and Lavrov, and instead of prison or a fine, he was awarded a scientific award.
In Russia, the property of Ukrainian propagandists, such as Dmitry Gordon and Evgeny Kiselev, is not seized, and the property of Navalny's FBK employees is not touched, at least for now.
Evgeny Roizman, the Russian ex-Mayor of Yekaterinburg, who is constantly branding the Russian army on social networks, is not being jailed. They do not open criminal cases against many famous people (Sobchak, Shevchuk, Makarevich, Galkin, Khamatova, Bi2) who condemn the Russian army. There are many such examples. If this is totalitarianism, then some kind of ridiculous. This cannot be compared with Ukraine, especially after SBU agents admitted in March that they had killed Denis Kireev, a member of the negotiating delegation, for treason.


Read the latest news. Russian troops took Kherson, Melitopol, Lisichansk, Severodonetsk, the entire Luhansk region, a significant part of the Donetsk region, as well as part of the Zaporozhye and Kharkov regions.

Why is this comparison between Putin and Hitler, have you re-read the Ukrainian propaganda again? So know that Russia is a multicultural country, which, unlike Ukraine, does not prohibit second languages ​​in national areas. You're looking in the wrong direction. Modern Hitlers sit in Washington, I'm not talking about Biden, but about the American leadership as a whole, which spits on the independence and interests of other states, putting their own interests above all else. "Defenders of democracy" who have already killed 20-30 million people since WW II, that's who the real terrorists are. And hypocrites are all those who say that NATO is only for protection.

The video of torture and further killing on camera over the captive is obviously a Ukrainian fake, but for some reason one of the main persons there was interviewed by the russian state media. This looks rather strange. Need to figure out how it happened.
Very strange.

Any thinking person will by this time assume that anything coming from Ukraine is almost certainly fake.  They are compulsive liars and fabricators and do it even when there is no compelling reason to.  And the Western mainstream media has a similar compulsion to pick up the garbage and run with it.

The Russians are not strangers to 'playing with reality' and could easily leverage the 'automatic fakery' perception of the Ukrainians to frame them in a slightly-above-par psy-op if they wished.  e.g., deliberately putting in a lot of the evidence that you called out.  Likewise, the Ukrainians probably could do a decent job inventing fake shit if they wished (albeit on a more limited scale using higher-skilled personnel) but for some reason they just don't wish to.

Something still stinks in all of this, and I just have a gut feeling that there is a level of cooperation at certain levels, or in certain veins, between elements within the Ukrainian side and the Russian side.  I'd bet money that some deal or wink/nod handshake understanding has been struck, but I'd also bet that it is not known at almost any level.

If it was withdrawn before they had chance to vote, thats dictatorship...someone above their parliament, or maybe even some foreign PR company
or secret service decided that "it caused "an inadequate public outcry""