Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 287. (Read 60788 times)

And, by Russia, do you mean in Russia territory from before 2014, or somewhere in Ukraine or Belarus which has open internet?

Serious question, Westerners are led to believe news is Russia is very tightly controlled to support leaderships narrative, I would think the common Russian citizen is risking a LOT if they bypass the blocks on the control! 

Kind of saying, you might have government permission to post pro-Russian rhetoric?

As far as freedom of thought and speech, that does not reconcile with pictures we see of 80 year old women and others being arrested for holding blank pieces of paper.

RosKomNadzor selectively blocks some sites, including this one. Block bypass is technically simple and there is no punishment for it, because there is no corpus delicti.
Geographically, I am now in Russia.

So.. question, has Russia cut off internet access to the rest of the world?

Is so, how is Be's propaganda getting out?

If they have it would imply Be is not in Russia, despite the obvious distaste for western freedom?

As far as the rocket goes, Russia has acquired lots of Ukraine's weapons, Ukraine has a lot of Russian ammo left behind in vehicles running out of fuel, so it just comes down to the credibility, who is most likely to shell innocent people. 

Obviously Russia.

Maybe I'm missing something, but from what I can tell reading the internet....

A terrorist organization, Russia, got angry at Ukraine for overthrowing a puppet Russian government in 2014, and illegally invaded Crimea as a form of reprisal.  Crimea rightfully belongs to Ukraine today.

At the same time it appears that Russia funded two other terrorist organizations in  Donetsk and Luhansk,inciting them to cause trouble in a peaceful area of Ukraine.

Had Russia kept their nose inside of their own territory, there would have been peace in Donetsk and Luhansk.

So, looks like Ukraine has been fighting two Russia sponsored terrorist organizations in Donetsk and Luhansk as defense against Russian supplied terrorists.

It always seem to come back to Russia as the aggressor.

Lviv soccer fans at a game against Donesk
The Ukrainian banner reads "Bandera- our hero"


Gerhard Lindner general in the wehrmacht, Christian Lindner German politician (FDP)
German chancellor, Olaf Scholz grandson of SS general
Józef Tusk seved in wehrmacht was the grandfather of the former Prime Minister of Poland, Donald Tusk

Yes, Serbs lied a lot. So did us...I know, I fought on Croatian side

I think I explained in sufficient detail (maybe even too much) why this rocket could not fly from Shakhtyorsk, the question is whether you are capable of listening to reasonable arguments at all? In the previous message, I gave you another thread, by pulling which you can find out the truth - the amount of unburned fuel in the fuel compartment of the tail section. It's up to you what to do with it.

It's OK if you consider me a victim of Russian propaganda or a stupid bum from the couch troops of a slow selective response. I see no point in trying to dissuade you from this.

Donetsk and Luhansk are break away republics. Ukrainiens love them so much to attack them regulary.

I see. Well, since you do not feel you need to prove anything that you say, I guess it would be futile to ask you if you have any proof other than the statement from an interested party (a Russian Ministery) and the "magister dixit" argument (other people know more, so you are wrong).

You see, you have used a medieval argument without even know that existed. I hope that makes your reflect on your way of thinking.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(M)#:~:text=magister%20dixit,to%20Aristotle%2C%20precluding%20further%20discussion

Example:
Jokes apart, I am the kind of person that, provided an explanation, even if complex, can certainly understand it (even if it is rocket science - literally). You are simply failing to provide any support for assertions other than citing specs given by your controllers.

Again, if the Ukrainians would need to artificially create any Putinphobia, they would not hit a real strategic target. It is just stupid.

If the serial numbers do not mean anything, tell me why they are retouched in the reports of the Ukrainian media? The serial number of the tail section of the rocket was found out only thanks to the report of the Italian media.
The distance in a straight line between Shakhtyorsk and Kramatorsk is 105 km. The maximum flight range of the Tochka-U missile is 120 km. When flying to the maximum range, the fuel in the rocket burns out completely, the fuel compartment of the rocket tail from Kramatorsk burned out offhand by about a third - that is, the rocket flew to the target about 40 km (which is in good agreement with the statement of the Russian Ministry of Defense that the strike was delivered from a distance of 45 km).

Tochka-U cannot maneuver and flies along a ballistic trajectory. If the missile was not shot down by missile defense (and the missile from Kramatorsk was not shot down by missile defense), then by the relative position of the tail and the epicenter of the impact, it is possible to determine with an accuracy of 10-15 degrees from which direction the missile flew. In combination with the information from the previous paragraph, it is possible to determine quite accurately where the rocket was launched from, and this is not Shakhtyorsk.

Moderate your narrow-minded emotions, you just do not understand the issue and let's leave it to those who understand. If the rocket flew 105 km from Shakhtyorsk, the remnants of the tail section would be much shorter due to the burning out of more fuel, is that clearer? The provocation of Ukraine is absolutely ridiculous and is designed so that no one will seriously understand what happened, the main thing is to create a newsbreak.

I am afraid that both of these statements are false. Even if there is a serial number, I have not seen anything linking that with Kramatorsk nor Ukraine. I have however seem a number of geolocated pictures of missiles launches from Shakhtarsk happening on a daily bases.

Re evidence and burden or proof, I am afraid you controllers would need to provide the world with evidence that that missile come from someone else. I know that your aim is to create doubt, but, on this case, the reason for hitting a train station, the fact that missiles are Putin's weapon of choice for strategic large targets and the fact that if Ukraine would ever choose a false flag would be a civilian target but certainly not a real strategic target that is critical to evacuate and send over reinforcements makes the case very clear:

Putin's army does not care if there are civilians or not - the will hit any target they consider necessary. It is more of a grinding machine than a human led army.

I can see bunch of psychopaths in Putin's war room deciding to shell a city, target a station, kill anyone of fighting age,... Mission first, humanity later Mein Führer Mr Putin.


That explains a lot of what your write.

You're the one claiming that mere similarity of the serial number to another serial number proves something. It doesn't, as can be seen above.

You have also lied about Tochka-U not being used by Russian forces for "several years", when it clearly was still in use as late as a few months ago, and likely in use during this war as well.

So while the Ukrainian government may lack definitive proof, the attempts by Russian propagandists to shift blame are riddled with lies and they're carpet-bombing the internet with contradictory and false information. You're like that boy who cried wolf and blamed the wolf for looting and killing civilians.


Nice job shifting those goal posts, comrade.

Let me guess, Russian propaganda will soon produce "factory" paperwork "proving" that the missile in question was delivered to Ukrainian SSR in 1980s.

It's the same rhetoric used by the Serbs in the former Yugoslavia, and probably by all the aggressors throughout history. Pathetic assholes.

I'm not a prosecutor, why do I even need to prove something? The burden of proof lies with the accusing party, in the event of this provocation, Ukraine falsely accuses Russia of launching a missile strike with a Ukrainian missile from the territory controlled by Ukraine into the territory also controlled by Ukraine. And Ukraine does not bother to provide any evidence!

Such complex products as a rocket consist of many nodes, assembled at the factory on the same numbers, and each internal node has this number, not painted, but stamped in metal (there are at least a dozen of them inside the preserved tail section). And at the Votkinsk Machine-Building Plant, where this particular rocket was made, the archive has paper accounting documents for each copy, including which military unit it was delivered to.

Except the number (or similarity thereof) doesn't mean much, as has been proven in similar situations before. Clinging so hard to this "proof" probably means you have no real proof that this was a Ukrainian missile.

https://youtu.be/7cV17MkoOsw?t=70
(in DNR, presumably Ukrainian)


https://youtu.be/37ZmIfyePd4?t=17
(in Syria, which is quite far from Ukraine last time I checked)

I did not expect that the serial number would come up so quickly, especially since the Ukrainian media diligently obscured it in their reports. But the Italian journalists showed the video without retouching, special thanks to them.

Shame on the Armed Forces of Ukraine to fire cluster munitions at their own civilians, this is the style and methods of the Syrian terrorists from ISIS (banned in Russia).

Looks to me like someone held the '6' upside down to make a '9' rather than using some different character set and style which seems to be what you are implying.  Even if there were some font differences, that would be relatively expected in a place where a lot of serial number painting is done and one has a lot of such work going on (factory, military, etc.)

Yeah it looks spray-painted with a template, nothing special.

The two "9" are very different. If I were to nitpick I'd say "579" was painted separately from "91" (thicker and not lining up). In the video from 2015 digits seem to be more uniform and the "5" is different from the 2022 version. I don't think this means much though given the low-tech method of painting it. Edit: on a second thought, it kinda deflates the idea that those missiles were made and delivered in the same batch, and then stored and launched by the same entity. Clearly made with different number templates at least.

2022:


2015:

Agreed, I am just saying that, in that picture, there is no context to link it to anything in particular, nor can be really validated as original. I have made an exception and saw the video, so yes that image is acceptable as belonging to the missile shown. The serial itself does not, insofar as public evidence I have seen, have any link to Ukraine's arsenal.

Now that I think of it, could a serial number be just faked? I mean, is not like you are changing the directional system, is just painting a few numbers??

Let's say I am a Putin's army strategist and want to create doubt about the origin of that attack, since I know there will be civilians there. I choose a crappy missile from the bottom of my about to expire-date weaponry, change the serial number and ... there it goes.

I am honestly very doubtful about the white markings translated as "for the children" though. The missile itself - that came from Shakhtarsk.

The serial number ending in 79 seems to be real - it can be found in TG La7 (Italian TV channel) video on Youtube.

But you're right about the rest of that "proof" is coming from Putin's mouthpiece (RIA) so it can't be trusted.

It was quite lovely though how our favorite Kremlintroll announced that a serial number would be the ultimate "proof" and sure enough, "proof" soon appeared.