Thanks to Patrick Lancaster there does exist footage of the Chechen SF in action, and they are somewhat impressive. Decades of hard won experience behind most/all of their commanders and obvious high morale among the fighters. Well equipped for modern combat as well. That's a pretty tough combination to go up against.
I met early reviews of the DPR militias about the Chechen special forces at the beginning of the assault on Mariupol, they say these crazy people arrived with machine guns and began to conduct reconnaissance in combat. They were quickly taught how to use reconnaissance drones, and Kadyrov paid for and delivered a hundred drones to his special forces within a day. These people really feel like a fish in water in battle, the war is deep in their blood. Initially, the Chechen regiment was planned to be used to clean up and guard checkpoints (according to the regulations, they belong to the Russian Guard - this is a type of police or internal troops), but they turned out to be too good in the assault and they began to be actively used in the hottest areas on the front line. They seem to be very happy about it. 
Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 292. (Read 73604 times)
...
The real Chechens are fighting on the Ukrainian side:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tk67ss/chechens_from_sheikh_mansur_battalion_fighting/
Stopped Rashists on the Zaporizhian front.
Look to me more like ill equipped and poorly trained ISIS (CIA) rejects. Idlib escapees perhaps?
Putin's Chechens are TikTok bloggers, 3rd line groups, mostly involved in clearing areas, robbing, raping, and torturing.
So says the house reddittard.
Thanks to Patrick Lancaster there does exist footage of the Chechen SF in action, and they are somewhat impressive. Decades of hard won experience behind most/all of their commanders and obvious high morale among the fighters. Well equipped for modern combat as well. That's a pretty tough combination to go up against.
I don't blame the Nazi's for raising the white flag...it's more their boastful attitude when they were simply ethnic cleansing civilians in Donbass which makes me be not exactly crying myself to sleep when they get their just deserts. The smart POW's will figure out that they were simply being liquidated so they cause fewer problems for the West when the Poles take over Western Ukraine. Maybe their ticket out of captivity will be to arm up and head West when the real fighting starts.
Nice propaganda piece on the Chechen SF:
A brief view of Chechen and LPR command center
https://www.bitchute.com/video/92uEgNHBuJqQ/
Prop or not, I wouldn't want to be going up against these guys...and neither do the Ukrainian Nazis apparently as evidenced by the mass surrender in Azovstal. Seems like the surrender was to the DPR who took over once the Chechens drove the Nazis underground, but the Nazis clearly preferred surrender to the prospect of meeting these folks in the tunnels. Some people just seem to love to fight, and the Chechens seem to be among them. Allah Akbar!
However he managed it, Putin did good to get these people working for 'mother Russia' rather than against it.
The real Chechens are fighting on the Ukrainian side:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/tk67ss/chechens_from_sheikh_mansur_battalion_fighting/
Stopped Rashists on the Zaporizhian front.
Putin's Chechens are TikTok bloggers, 3rd line groups, mostly involved in clearing areas, robbing, raping, and torturing.
Nice propaganda piece on the Chechen SF:
A brief view of Chechen and LPR command center
https://www.bitchute.com/video/92uEgNHBuJqQ/
Prop or not, I wouldn't want to be going up against these guys...and neither do the Ukrainian Nazis apparently as evidenced by the mass surrender in Azovstal. Seems like the surrender was to the DPR who took over once the Chechens drove the Nazis underground, but the Nazis clearly preferred surrender to the prospect of meeting these folks in the tunnels. Some people just seem to love to fight, and the Chechens seem to be among them. Allah Akbar!
However he managed it, Putin did good to get these people working for 'mother Russia' rather than against it.
^^^ Russia doesn't need anything from outside. They can manufacture anything that they need. So, if nobody else wants Russian goods, who cares? They will develop Siberia for themselves, and outdo the other nations of the world.
All that messing with Russian finances by cutting off Russia from the world is for naught. Next time the world messes with them, we'll all see them in force.
All that messing with Russian finances by cutting off Russia from the world is for naught. Next time the world messes with them, we'll all see them in force.
Interesting documentary from inside Russia. Check out how "strong is the rouble" and how "everything is ok".
https://youtu.be/ZsjDSLgOMMc
Yep... that is the "best performing currency" and the new "petrorouble" that can either not buy what you want because the shop is closed or it will buy the stuff for nearly double of what other people pay outside the glorious Putin's Tzardom. Keep your roubles under the pillow... what could go wrong?
https://youtu.be/ZsjDSLgOMMc
Yep... that is the "best performing currency" and the new "petrorouble" that can either not buy what you want because the shop is closed or it will buy the stuff for nearly double of what other people pay outside the glorious Putin's Tzardom. Keep your roubles under the pillow... what could go wrong?
Or are we at the stage of the argument where you're calling wikipedia info as "Putin's fantasies with fake information and lots of fallacies"?
Re-read the dates again.
In other news, today Poland's president Andrzej Duda addressed Ukraine's parliament with all kinds of support for Ukraine and received a standing ovation. I'm getting a feeling that all this posturing from Russian propaganda about Ukrainians being nazis and supporting genocide against Poles etc is just bullshit. Don't you?
This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.
Do not die for Putin.
This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.Do not die for Putin.
Don't die for Zelensky.
This is for machine guns and hand grenades, sure
Quote
The US just deepened its commitment to Ukraine by $40 billion
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.
Sorry to tell you, but this knife does not cut both ways. Ukrainians are fighting for their right to not be governed from Moscow and for a future among the most developed nations in the world, Russian soldiers are dying for nothing - if not for the delusional fantasies of a 70 year old guy that just cannot tell reality from fiction.
Do not die for Putin.
Russian mothers, did you raise your sons and daughters to be sent to kill, rape and murder and then die a horrible death away from home?
I think you are very confused about who is getting nervous and trying to paint a picture that is simply not true, but I will make it a bit more clear for you:
- It is perfectly know that Russia runs conscriptions, and on this situation they can be send to die for Putin in Ukraine.
Rumor has it Russia is facing the possibility of losing Crimea.
Russia Could Actually Lose Territory Amid Ukraine War Disaster
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kyiv-crimea-putin-zelensky-donbas-1708149
Russia Could Actually Lose Territory Amid Ukraine War Disaster
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-kyiv-crimea-putin-zelensky-donbas-1708149
This is an illusion, and a very dangerous one for all parties.
Ukraine will not be able to regain Crimea under any circumstances, since Russia's nuclear doctrine states that it will use nuclear weapons if the Kremlin decides that the existence of the state will be threatened.
A few months ago we all thought we'd be waking up to news of Zelensky dead and Kyiev occupied by Russian forces. At the time, Russian failure and retreat within a few weeks seemed much less likely than Ukraine ultimately regaining some of it's land that was seized in 2014 today.
Crimea is a contested territory that belongs to Ukraine and is under Russian occupation. Even Putin understands the consequences of using any form of nuclear weapon.
The fact that he "declares" a territory "Russia" means that he would be drawn inevitably into a choice: Use nukes to defend it (with a corresponding response) or loose face. A third options is to be killed by his own circle.
It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people 
surely the irony cannot be lost here
[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
surely the irony cannot be lost here[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.
You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.
The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street?
this is beyond atrocious!
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street?
this is beyond atrocious!Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?
But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.
Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.
Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?
Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi. He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.
He was assassinated by the Russians.
You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?
Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.
Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:
Quote from: Banderites
Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
Quote
Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?
To summarize:
- 1929 Bandera joined OUN
- 1931 becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
- June 1933 became head of the OUN national executive
- June 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
- 1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
- Sept 1934 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
- Sept 1934 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
- 22 June 1941 Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
- 5 July 1941 Bandera is arrested in Germany
- 14 July 1941 After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
- Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
- Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
- 1946 OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
- Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
- Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
- 1959 Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
- 22 January 2010 President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.
Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland
EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;
And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU
Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?
You dipshit. I am not Ukrainian. Read my post.
Bandera is a Ukrainian hero and always will be because he fought for the independence of Ukraine.
What Russia did to all of Eastern Europe/Caucasus/Siberia over the years is not forgivable. They are animals.
The current Z-ombification of Russia should be of concern to any sane human being.
The Z Russians today are ready to commit genocides without thinking twice about it.
All this de-Nazification nonsense is for idiots like you. It is to turn away your attention from the fact that Z Russians are NaZZZis.
Ukrainians are killing Russians because the Russians invaded their country.
Russians are killing Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians.
BTW, can you list the mass killings of civilians committed by Ukrainians since 1991? Who is the Nazi now? LOL.
So from all of the facts that i provided that Bandera is a world wide condemned massacrist, your best rebuttal is that's he's still a hero just because he fought for the independence of Ukraine, as if that somehow negates all the murdering of innocent women and children as well as ethnic cleansings
I accept your switch to personal attacks as indication that you ran out of any coherent arguments and a total capitulation on said topic.I really hope that you're in minority, my next goal is to try and estimate how many Ukrainians actually approve of the massacres and see Bandera as a hero
Bandera was not near the massacres in Volhynia. You are attributing these atrocities to him instead of Mykola Lebed because you are a zombie who can only consume pro-Russian propaganda. Bandera was in the concentration camp when these atrocities were carried out.
I don't think you will find many Ukrainians today who would approve of the massacres of Poles during WWII. Of course, what happened was
deliberate, brutal ethnic cleansing. You will not find many Ukrainians today who are for the extermination of ethnic groups in Ukraine or elsewhere. That is just insane to suggest that the WWII massacres are somehow related to the invasion of Crimea and Donbas by Russia in 2014.
But on the other hand, Russian soldiers and Rosguardia have been given direct orders to annihilate the Ukrainian nation.
If you are truly against ethnic cleansing, you would be against Russians committing war crimes in Ukraine. You would be against this war.
Instead, you are supporting a genocidal maniac who turned Russians into Z-ombies who think that bombing schools, hospitals, and civilian infrastructure somehow makes Russia great again and is just.
All because Ukrainians consider Bandera their national hero? That is just insane. But I repeat myself.
That wedge that Russians were always trying to stick between Poles and Ukrainians will not work. Polish people hosted millions of Ukrainians
fleeing Russian tanks in THEIR homes.
Here is the Polish president talking about the Polish-Ukrainian relations, current and past:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpaz22R2WBw
Russians lost the social media war, lost the economic and political wars, and soon they will lose the military war.
...
A bit of time travel. And then teleportation?
You know what they say about extraordinary claims.
Perhaps you should have settled on "controversial" instead of trying to prove Putin's fantasies with fake information and lots of fallacies.
- 1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
- Sept 1939 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
- Sept 1939 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and
A bit of time travel. And then teleportation?
killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia
Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released
Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released
You know what they say about extraordinary claims.
Perhaps you should have settled on "controversial" instead of trying to prove Putin's fantasies with fake information and lots of fallacies.
Thanks for proofreading, i stand corrected, sorry for the typo, Bandera was clearly freed from prison and recruited by Nazi intelligence service Abwehr in 1939 about 2yrs before Germany attacked Soviet Union.
As far as extraordinary claims, fake information and lots of fallacies, i'm honored but i'm not as well versed in the subject matter as you put me out to be, and in no position to make such claims. All of this was shamelessly taken directly from wikipedia (that's what those blue links are, i suggest you click them and give 'em a read, they're very educational).
Quote
For his refusal to rescind the decree, Bandera was arrested by the Gestapo and on 5 July 1941 held under house arrest.[6] After January 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention.[7][8][9] In 1944, with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released in the hope that he would be instrumental in deterring the advancing Soviet forces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_BanderaOr are we at the stage of the argument where you're calling wikipedia info as "Putin's fantasies with fake information and lots of fallacies"?
It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people surely the irony cannot be lost here
[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
surely the irony cannot be lost here[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.
You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.
The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street?
this is beyond atrocious!Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?
But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.
Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.
Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?
Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi. He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.
He was assassinated by the Russians.
You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?
Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.
Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:
Quote from: Banderites
Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
Quote
Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?
To summarize:
- 1929 Bandera joined OUN
- 1931 becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
- June 1933 became head of the OUN national executive
- June 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
- 1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
- Sept 1934 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
- Sept 1934 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
- 22 June 1941 Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
- 5 July 1941 Bandera is arrested in Germany
- 14 July 1941 After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
- Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
- Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
- 1946 OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
- Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
- Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
- 1959 Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
- 22 January 2010 President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.
Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland
EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;
And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU
Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?
You dipshit. I am not Ukrainian. Read my post.
Bandera is a Ukrainian hero and always will be because he fought for the independence of Ukraine.
What Russia did to all of Eastern Europe/Caucasus/Siberia over the years is not forgivable. They are animals.
The current Z-ombification of Russia should be of concern to any sane human being.
The Z Russians today are ready to commit genocides without thinking twice about it.
All this de-Nazification nonsense is for idiots like you. It is to turn away your attention from the fact that Z Russians are NaZZZis.
Ukrainians are killing Russians because the Russians invaded their country.
Russians are killing Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians.
BTW, can you list the mass killings of civilians committed by Ukrainians since 1991? Who is the Nazi now? LOL.
So from all of the facts that i provided that Bandera is a world wide condemned massacrist, your best rebuttal is that's he's still a hero just because he fought for the independence of Ukraine, as if that somehow negates all the murdering of innocent women and children as well as ethnic cleansings
I accept your switch to personal attacks as indication that you ran out of any coherent arguments and a total capitulation on said topic.I really hope that you're in minority, my next goal is to try and estimate how many Ukrainians actually approve of the massacres and see Bandera as a hero
But you just said you would kill Ukrainians doing the same
Quote me saying that I would kill anyone, let alone kill Ukrainians for messing with price tags.
- 1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
- Sept 1934 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
- Sept 1934 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and
A bit of time travel. And then teleportation?
killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia
Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released
Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen
Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released
You know what they say about extraordinary claims.
Perhaps you should have settled on "controversial" instead of trying to prove Putin's fantasies with fake information and lots of fallacies.
It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people surely the irony cannot be lost here
[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
surely the irony cannot be lost here[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.
You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.
The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street?
this is beyond atrocious!Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?
But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.
Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.
Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?
Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi. He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.
He was assassinated by the Russians.
You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?
Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.
Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:
Quote from: Banderites
Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
Quote
Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?
To summarize:
- 1929 Bandera joined OUN
- 1931 becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
- June 1933 became head of the OUN national executive
- June 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
- 1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
- Sept 1934 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
- Sept 1934 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
- 22 June 1941 Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
- 5 July 1941 Bandera is arrested in Germany
- 14 July 1941 After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
- Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
- Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
- 1946 OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
- Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
- Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
- 1959 Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
- 22 January 2010 President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.
Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland
EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;
And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU
Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?
You dipshit. I am not Ukrainian. Read my post.
Bandera is a Ukrainian hero and always will be because he fought for the independence of Ukraine.
What Russia did to all of Eastern Europe/Caucasus/Siberia over the years is not forgivable. They are animals.
The current Z-ombification of Russia should be of concern to any sane human being.
The Z Russians today are ready to commit genocides without thinking twice about it.
All this de-Nazification nonsense is for idiots like you. It is to turn away your attention from the fact that Z Russians are NaZZZis.
Ukrainians are killing Russians because the Russians invaded their country.
Russians are killing Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians.
BTW, can you list the mass killings of civilians committed by Ukrainians since 1991? Who is the Nazi now? LOL.
This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.
Do not die for Putin.
This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.Do not die for Putin.
Don't die for Zelensky.
This is for machine guns and hand grenades, sure
Quote
The US just deepened its commitment to Ukraine by $40 billion
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.
Sorry to tell you, but this knife does not cut both ways. Ukrainians are fighting for their right to not be governed from Moscow and for a future among the most developed nations in the world, Russian soldiers are dying for nothing - if not for the delusional fantasies of a 70 year old guy that just cannot tell reality from fiction.
Do not die for Putin.
Russian mothers, did you raise your sons and daughters to be sent to kill, rape and murder and then die a horrible death away from home?
As far as I understand, one of the side objectives of this operation is to demonstrate the power of Russian weapons and the Russian method of warfare in front of NATO weapons and combat standards. The demonstration is very impressive.
This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.
Do not die for Putin.
This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.Do not die for Putin.
Don't die for Zelensky.
This is for machine guns and hand grenades, sure
Quote
The US just deepened its commitment to Ukraine by $40 billion
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.
The Senate approved a massive military, economic, and humanitarian aid package.
Sorry to tell you, but this knife does not cut both ways. Ukrainians are fighting for their right to not be governed from Moscow and for a future among the most developed nations in the world, Russian soldiers are dying for nothing - if not for the delusional fantasies of a 70 year old guy that just cannot tell reality from fiction.
Do not die for Putin.
Russian mothers, did you raise your sons and daughters to be sent to kill, rape and murder and then die a horrible death away from home?
...
Totally not a fascist regime at all.
Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.
Totally not a fascist regime at all.
But you just said you would kill Ukrainians doing the same
No, he said that Ukrainians fighting for Russia would be considered enemy and be killed. Ukraine is at war with Russia, so Ukrainian nationals fighting under Russian orders are enemy combatants at best or, in my view, traitors in a legal sense, like in most countries in the world when you fight against your own people.
It scares me that you reached your pinnacle of cringe right on this topic. Person who yells WHATABOUTISM when i even slightly hint at a comparison (not a main rebuttal), blatantly doesn't answer a single direct question and just start discussing other people surely the irony cannot be lost here
[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
surely the irony cannot be lost here[...]
Osama bin Laden was also fighting Soviets before murdering innocent people (and was also sponsored by CIA), does that make him a controversial figure in your eyes as well? How about Osama bin Laden Avenue in Kyiv, it can run directly parallel to Stepana Bandery Avenue.
No, it's still you bringing in unrelated shit into this thread.
You brought up Bandera as one of the reasons Ukraine needs denazification (correct me if I'm wrong). I responded as to why that's absurd. If you can't make a coherent argument that's not really my fault.
The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000 and 100,000 deaths...the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street? this is beyond atrocious!
[...]
Controversial figure, right, something all of us could've done, just a silly mistake, perhaps wouldn't mind having an address on his street?
this is beyond atrocious!Not a fan of Stalin. Georgian' madman who indiscriminately killed his own people across all races/ethnicities (even his own Georgian republic suffered greatly "the exact number of Georgians executed during the Great Purges is not estimated, but some scholars suggest it varies from 30,000 to 60,000"). He did achieve his goal of rapidly industrializing USSR. I believe the argument largely comes from the cost/benefit analysis, where some people feel the loss of life is justified or couldn't be avoided under such circumstances. I tend to disagree and believe he went above and beyond on human suffering from what could be reasonably justified to industrialize USSR as quickly as possible. During the Soviet famine, percentage wise Kazakhs suffered the most 38 to 42 percent of all Kazakhs died from the famines during his rule. In absolute numbers including Russian famine of 1921–1922, the most died in Russia (~7mil). I surely wouldn't condone naming streets after him in 2016. Now any chance you could concede that the guy who did all the massacring and raping wasn't such a great guy and surely there must be other Ukrainian heroes who should get a street named after them?
But still Bandera streets in Ukraine - bad, Ukraine needs denazifying.
Stalin streets in Russia - nah, I just don't condone it.
Sometimes I feel like your reading comprehension is on a 6th grade level. Let's try once again, I brought up Bandera because I came across CIA's operation Red Sox where in 1949 CIA also tried to back Ukrainian independence by sponsoring Bandera, and CIA operations chief flat out admits that they were sponsoring a group directly linked to Nazi atrocities, even worse they did the Nazi's 'dirty work' (Bandera). Everyone seem to agree that this guy massacred/tortured/rapped lots of people, yet Ukrainians felt that he was the most deserving from all Ukrainians to name a street in his honor in the capital of Kyiv in 2016. Now this is where i get confused, you claim that there are only few Nazis in Ukraine but no more than in any other capital ok, so if you'd say that some idiot somehow managed to find some loophole and rename a street in the city after the murderer but once people found out there were protests etc but for one reason or the other they cannot change it to someone more deserving, i'd understand. But you don't say that at all, what scares me is your allusions, changing topic to other people, and reluctance to condemn Bandera makes it sound like that's wasn't an error at all, and most people do in fact support a guy who massacred innocent people. Am i mistaken? Is Bandera a hero to you?
Bandera is a Ukrainian national hero who fought for Ukrainian independence. He was against the Soviet invasion of Ukraine, a staunch anti-
communist, nationalist but not a Nazi. He collaborated with the Germans, but later was arrested by them and imprisoned in the concentration
camp.
He was assassinated by the Russians.
You support Russians who committed and are committing genocides and war crimes. Who executed people in Katyn?
Santa Claus? Who killed innocent people across Europe during Soviet times?
Russians did. So shut the fuck up about your support for these animals.
Who killed innocent people across Europe? Easy, your hero Bandera. Here are some highlights:
Quote from: Banderites
Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that formed in 1929 as an amalgamation of movements including the Union of Ukrainian Fascists.[2][3] The union, known as OUN-B, had been engaged in various atrocities, including murder of civilians, most of whom were ethnic Poles.
...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banderites...
These massacres resulted in the deaths of 80,000-100,000 Poles and 10,000-15,000 Ukrainians.
..
The OUN-B (Banderites) formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans
...
To ensure maximum impact of the systematic ethnic cleansing campaign in the contested territory, OUN-B faction spread antisemitic, racist, and fascist propaganda among the ordinary peasants and other Ukrainians.
...
Bandera wrote a manifesto entitled "Ukrainian National Revolution" that called for the annihilation of so-called ethnic enemies.
...
included specific instructions about the killing of Jews, Poles, and Ukrainian opponents of fascism.
...
OUN leaflets...read: "Exterminate the Poles, Jews and communists without mercy. Do not pity the enemies of the Ukrainian National Revolution!
...
The first pogrom took the lives of at least 4,000 Jews... and the "Petlura Days" massacre of more than 2,000 Polish Jews by the Ukrainian militants.
Quote
Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists[1][2] (OUN), an organization responsible for ethnic cleansings also implicated in collaboration with Nazi Germany.
...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera...
largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[28] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine.
...
his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 100,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.[
Guy who was never even a citizen of Ukraine, kills 10k-15k Ukrainians (ignoring thousands of other women and children) that's your hero? Just cause he also killed Soviet people?
To summarize:
- 1929 Bandera joined OUN
- 1931 becoming the chief propaganda officer of the OUN
- June 1933 became head of the OUN national executive
- June 1934 assassination of Poland's Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki. convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment in Poland
- 1 Sep 1939 Germany Invades Poland.
- Sept 1939 Bandera is freed from prison, moves to German-occupied zone of Poland offers his services to Nazi Germany in exchange for ongoing financial and logistical support.
- Sept 1939 recruited before Operation Barbarossa during World War II into the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr for espionage, counter-espionage and sabotage.
- 22 June 1941 Nazi Germany invades Soviet Union
- 5 July 1941 Bandera is arrested in Germany
- 14 July 1941 After 9 days released from custody was required to stay in Berlin
- Jan 1942 Bandera was transferred to Sachsenhausen concentration camp's special barrack for high-profile political prisoners Zellenbau but kept in special, comparatively comfortable detention
- Sep 1944 with Germany rapidly losing ground in the war in the face of the advancing Allied armies, Bandera was released and settles with his family in West Germany
- 1946 OUN-B was re-formed in under the sponsorship of MI6. Organization had been receiving some support from MI6 since the 1930s. One faction of Bandera's organization...became more closely associated with the CIA
- Some American intelligence reported that he even was guarded by former SS men.
- Bandera reached an agreement with the BND, offering them his service, despite CIA warning the West Germans against cooperating with him.
- 1959 Bandera was assassinated in 1959 by KGB agents in Munich.
- 22 January 2010 President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.
Let's reiterate where everyone stands. On one side we have:
Russia
Israel
Germany - condemning crimes committed by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, in part under the leadership of Bandera, especially against civilians
Poland - declared Volhynia a genocide, and doesn't even allow cars with OUN (red black flag) stickers to enter Poland
EU - Deeply deplores ... to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;
And on another side we have:
Ukrainian neo-Nazis
and YOU
Right, so we all got your stance on Bandera. A follow up question, how do you feel about Hitler, he also fought against Soviets, so is he a hero to you too?
So the Azov suckes got done again.
Putins daugther (Katerina Tikhonova) boyfriends name is Zelensky.
This if to you, young Russian men: If you do not stop this you will be sent to die for Putin. He is 70, he does not care at all if you live or die and the leaders that will send you to your death know that you are inexperienced and will be facing an experienced and well supplied army that will do anything to defend their land.
Do not die for Putin.
This is for you, young and not very Ukrainian men: little depends on you - you will be sent to die for Zelensky. The people of Ukraine chose him as their president because he promised peace in Ukraine. He lied and now you are sent like cannon fodder to die in the Donbas, fighting with machine guns and hand grenade launchers against the elite units of the Russian army, with rockets, artillery, aircraft and tanks.Do not die for Putin.
Don't die for Zelensky.
~
All of the fallacies aside, locals who join the enemy forces will be killed just like the enemy. Attempts to twist this into some unfair hostility should be addressed to Putin - he started the invasion and all of this mess.
If he is guilty, he should be punished, better in Ukraine. There are hundreds of reports on the network about the atrocities of Russian soldiers. How many criminal cases have been opened and criminals named so far? None of the normal person will protect them. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies are required to publish complete information so that the thieves and rapists become known in Russia.
And they do that. But Russia isn't doing shit about it, and most likely Ukrainian law enforcement is not going to be able to arrest them. So what exactly is your problem here?
You often quote American and English magazines, apparently considering them indisputable authoritative sources, to accuse Russia. Even the most famous newspaper is not a judicial department to accuse anyone, because there is such a thing as "presumption of innocence". Remember this definition? The United States is the main sponsor of Ukraine's military operations and is the most active on its side, and it is unlikely that there are large independent magazines anywhere in the world that are completely outside the control of governments. For prosecution, an international independent investigation must first be carried out. I and any adequate person will not defend criminals, no matter what country they belong to, if their guilt is proven in an independent court. Articles in an American, English, German and any other newspaper can serve as an additional source of information, but in no way can be evidence of a serious crime, especially now, during the open information war between the countries of the West and Russia.
This is not a court of law. We share information from various sources and I put a lot of effort into reading Russian language sources so your allegation about "American and English" is ludicrously off base. I post links to English versions whenever possible because this is an English board, but most of the information originates in Russian. I try to add warnings if I post e.g. rumors from telegram, otherwise if it's a reputable source then it's up to the reader to decide what to make of it. Again, I don't understand what your problem is here. If Russian military isn't looking its best in these news reports, it's most likely because it's a looting gang of criminals and not because the reports are wrong.
It would be quite absurd to use heavily-censored and mostly Kremlin-controlled media in Russia as sources for anything other than a laugh.
Just warn people that a woman who is accused of changing the price tag in a store now faces up to 10 years in a Russian prison.
Totally not a fascist regime at all.
But you just said you would kill Ukrainians doing the same
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