Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 293. (Read 60684 times)

Of course I do...he said he will have to attack Ukraine if they continue to cross what he called "red lines" ...and he did
Ukraine also said they will continue to provoke him, no matter what, and they did.
Both sides were on collision path, too bad there was no good will to back off, like during Cuban crisis

You clearly believe what he says, not what he does.


Sure.


I do not hold anyone to a particular standard other than not providing misleading information. It Putin is saying there are no crimes, I, with the information I have currently, disagree.

In so far as I am concern, US presidents and troops have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity and denied it. That does not give others the right to do the same.

From a practical perspective, the US is not threating Europe and, for me, Attacking a democracy is not the same as attacking a despotic regime.

As someone who's not from either side of war (although Croatia is part of NATO and looking at our mass media one could say we're actually in war,
as any info coming from Russia is suppressed and our media serves as part of Ukrainian PR machine), my main problem is that media is SO
one sided that any sane person at one moment starts to question everything, no matter what side its coming from.

There were so many Ukrainian fake PR stunts that it actually backfires, but since only few percent people actually use brain, I guess massive NATO
states brainwashing actually works.
So 90% people still thinks Russian tank magically teleported into Kiev few hours after invasion started and is overruning cars and civilians,
Ghost of Kiev just passed his 200th destroyed Russian plane and counting etc

Only sure facts are that Russia is attacker, Ukraine is defending itself, and USA and China are very happy with that (and EU is unhappy, but helpless)
And its war, and in war all sides do war crimes

I'm just wondering how you can be such a self-centered people to think that the world is just trying to find the most sophisticated ways to frame you. How do you explain such obsession of others with your country and your population? By your logic, Ukraine has been inventing all these horrible events all these 42 days, gathering millions of actors (I didn't have a high opinion of our cinema, really, but it turns out that no one can distinguish our "creativity" from reality), obviously using extremely expensive technology (again, I had no idea we had it) to create a fake of this magnitude to deceive everyone but you. Have you ever thought that the organization of such an action requires a perfectly honed system that would work smoothly. Do you know examples of such systems throughout human history? It is impossible to create it artificially, because there will always be a human factor that destroys such a system. Isn't it more likely that all these shots of dead, tortured, raped people are true? And that your propaganda system has spawned the monsters that do it all?

Did US sign it? Or you holding Russia to higher standards than US? Big powers are fighting, war is hell, innocent people that are stuck in the middle die. So far civilian deaths are relatively low for the war this size.

One side dominates control of the media, so huge efforts are extended to keep up the moral and try to manage surrenders. Top generals are sacked for treason, mayors declared traitors, videos of military police roughing up alleged saboteurs in civilian clothes, 500k Ukrainian refugees went to Russia etc... Who really cares what's proven true/false in few months, when you need to survive today. Ukraine needs more Russian Warship Go Fuck Yourself moments, just as Russia needs more videos of tictoc battalion doing cool things

The information in the Telegram channel "Bucha Live" can help to get some idea of how the population of Bucha lived in March 2022.
I looked through the posts from March 11 to April 1. Generally speaking, according to this channel, the evacuation took place in the city until March 21, but then it stopped. Also there were a lot of reports about looting and missing people. Before April 1, several messages about the shot Bucha inhabitants were published, but I didn't see posts with photographs or videos of the bodies lying on the road.
Next, I sorted the key information from the Telegram channel "Bucha Live" by date from oldest to newest.

12.03 - The video of dead citizens being buried near the church in a common grave. https://t.me/News380/5617
14.03 - Russian soldiers ordered residents to wear white armbands as an identification mark. https://t.me/News380/5729
14.03 - The mayor of Bucha has declared a humanitarian catastrophe. https://t.me/News380/5793
15.03 - The video from Bucha's streets. https://t.me/News380/5868
15.03 - The girl lost her arm. https://t.me/News380/5870
16.03 - The message that "orcs" and some locals are looting houses. https://t.me/News380/6027
17.03 - The story of Bucha resident about dead bodies all over the city, and also the lack of water and food. https://t.me/News380/6047
20.03 - Ukrainian counterintelligence identifies and kills saboteurs in territorial defense. The order was given not to leave anyone alive. https://t.me/News380/6512
21.03 - The report says that Russian troops steal and take out cars, household appliances and food. https://t.me/News380/6583
22.03 - The report that Russian soldier shot the father in front of his 14-year-old offspring. https://t.me/News380/6716
25.03 - The mayor of Bucha is called a fugitive. https://t.me/News380/7021
26.03 - Anonymous reports on social networks about the shot teachers. https://t.me/News380/7092
27.03 - A local resident was shot dead. https://t.me/News380/7231
28.03 - The video from Bucha's streets. https://t.me/News380/7338
29.03 - Marauders continue to operate in Bucha. https://t.me/News380/7467
31.03 - Reports that a fresh detachment of Russian soldiers entered the city. https://t.me/News380/7660
31.03 - Heavy fights. https://t.me/News380/7664
31.03 - Street photos. https://t.me/News380/7702 , https://t.me/News380/7726 , https://t.me/News380/7788
31.03 - The first news about Bucha liberation. https://t.me/News380/7741
31.03 - Rumors that Bucha is still under the control of Russian soldiers. https://t.me/News380/7774
01.04 - The city administration warns that it's still dangerous on the streets. https://t.me/News380/7839
01.04 - Ukrainian army in the city. https://t.me/News380/7887
01.04 - The mayor of Bucha officially announced the liberation of the city from the Russian troops. https://t.me/News380/7913
01.04 - The meeting of the mayor of Bucha with the residents. https://t.me/News380/7933
01.04 - The very first video with corpses on the road was published. https://t.me/News380/7944

You clearly didn't watch his interview

Are you suggesting that this cyclist was trying to attack a column of armoured vehicles an a number of soldiers on his own?

There are satellite pictures of independent sources that place the corpses there, there is footage,... As said, if you need further confirmation I suggest you travel there yourself. You have nothing to fear from Putin's troops right? They would not shoot you being a civilian right?


Geneva convention uh?


Who benefits the most? Certainly not the guy in the bike.

Don't get me wrong, I do know what propaganda can make, but if there is footage, independent satellite imagery, witnesses,... What do you exactly need to rekon? I guess the answer is that it does not matter what evidence is presented in this or any other case, you will ignore it or doubt it (they are actors, is a setup, my interpretation is different, it cannot be clearly seen,...). It must be so hard for you guys trying to force facts to fit into your beliefs.

Playing the sceptic is super-cool, you think you are smarter and see what others cannot and you can say "I told you" when you are right, and at the same time nothing happens if you do not. I encourage you to put your feet where your doubts are.

Putin is not a mad dictator, he is simply a guy from another age and a Russian supremacist, like our troll be.open here. He is not mad, he understands his acts and the consequences, it is his ethics and understanding of the world, that is still anchored on the cold war and Russian supremacy that are causing this.

During my time in uniform, we had few "cease fire situations", and both us and Serbs would sometimes break it for this or what reason. Not a single time
our or their side said "our forces broke cease fire", it was always THEM (from both sides mass media).
I remember one particular event when horrible crime happened to Croats by Muslim side in Bosnia, and I can tell you that any Muslim, civilian or soldier,
who would be unlucky to cross our path would not fare well. Few years later, I saw in a TV show that it was actually our (Croat) side that burned
bus full of Muslim civilians, filmed it and accused Muslims. Since then I'm very critical about garbage that we're fed with by mass media

And as be.open pointed out, one of main questions you should ask yourself after any such incident would be "who benefits the most"

I always laughed when Assad supposedly gassed civilians AFTER the battle, since he would obviously had to be idiot to do it AFTER he won, or
actually do it at all. But all my western friends blindly followed USA propaganda and would not believe even "corrupted UN officials" (their words)
who would find that rebels did it


Edit: also, whoever don't want to follow "mad dictator" narrative should watch Oliver Stone extensive interview with Putin to find (some) of the Russia motives

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBh-ivZ5C-w

its long, so whoever  find it easier to not use few brain cells, feel free to continue with "mad dictator" narrative

Your 'little war' accounted for a notable part of my confidence in 'the media' being adjusted in the right direction.  Back then I was a 'progressive' and a 'democrat' and while I didn't 'love' the Clintons, I did like and trust them and basically assumed that whatever Bill was supporting was basically the right thing.  Even then I could see that they would lie, but figured that it was for a good end-goal which I would/should agree with if I understood it better.

I remember one widely reported incident where one side was starving captured civilians in barbed wire prison camp.  A later analysis of the 'reporting' pointed out that the reporters were on the inside of the wire enclosure and they focused on a guy who had a congenital birth defect which gave him a sunken chest.  The science of fake news and crisis actors has developed a lot since then, and the incidence of it has mushroomed until now it is basically the standard for reporting and actual reporting on real information is a novelty for corporate media.

I was hanging out with a bunch of Croats because I was commercial fishing in Alaska at the time.  They were pretty fired up and radical (and fun to hang out and drink with.)  One of the American born 20-somethings was heading over to the old country there to fight right after the fishing season was over with full support of his family.  I don't have any reason to doubt that he followed up on his plan.  If so, I hope he survived.

I'm not trying to deceive anyone, I'm just asking questions, because my critical thinking has not atrophied under the influence of propaganda. And you?

Your question had a false premise.  The drone clearly wasn't following the soon to be murdered cyclist.  Who are you trying to fool?   

There are no Russian fighters in the photo here. From the point of view of a resident of Russia, these are representatives of the independent Donetsk People's Republic. From the point of view of a resident of a country that did not recognize the independence of the DPR, these are representatives of Ukraine. Oops.

I wonder what we have here? Do Russian fighters have Nazi stripes, or does it seem to me ?? Head of the Donetsk People's Republic Denis Pushilin visited Mariupol and presented state awards to servicemen of the People's Militia of the DPR directly at the combat position.


A video recording posted on Pushilin's Telegram channel shows an episode with the awarding of this fighter, on whose uniform two stripes are visible - a slightly modified version of the Nazi emblem "Totenkopf" and the Scandinavian symbol "Valknut", which is often used by modern neo-pagans and some neo-Nazis.



[1] https://zona.media/online/2022/04/05/41
[2] https://t.me/meduzalive/56618

You're trying to pull an owl on a globe by giving this video as evidence. I asked four questions about this video, and you essentially didn't even answer one. I hope you are sincerely mistaken, and not deliberately lying in this situation.

When investigating any crime, including a military one, the first question to find the culprit sounds like "who can benefit from this?" If you do not ask this question, then you automatically become, at best, just a victim of propaganda.

Nonsense. The drone operator doesn't seem to have noticed where the bicyclist went - at the end the camera was zooming and panning trying to find what the Russians were firing at. And about 30 of the first 90 seconds (before the shot) the bicyclist wasn't even in the frame. You seem to be just lying for no other reason than to waste my time trying to disprove the shit you make up.

Mariupol is a big separate story. Now Ukrainian marines are quite actively surrendering there, and Russian soldiers treat them within the framework of the Geneva Convention. However, in addition to the Marines, there are militants from Azov who play the role of barrage detachments, and they are not taken prisoner, and when they try to leave through the humanitarian corridor in civilian clothes, they are identified by Nazi tattoos and "denazified" on the spot. I think Azov still has about a thousand bayonets in Mariupol and they will all be destroyed.
You are wishful thinking. The drone operator follows the person on the bike, sometimes being distracted and giving a more general view of the column of armored vehicles.

I also want to remind you that martial law and general mobilization have been declared in Ukraine. Therefore, any man from 18 to 60 can be regarded by the Russian military as a combatant, as long as he has not clearly shown the absence of hostile intentions (for example, a white armband or a "press" inscription on a bulletproof vest).

I'm not trying to justify war crimes against civilians, that's disgusting and horrible. If there are those guilty on the Russian side of unmotivated violence and the killing of civilians, an investigation should be carried out by the military prosecutor's office and punishment from a military tribunal should follow.

The drone is clearly focused on the the vehicles, zooming in and out on them, and the bicyclist is in the lower right corner most of the time. Only after the shot did the camera zoom in on that location.

The rest of your bullshit is equally absurd. There is plenty of evidence of Russian forces shooting civilians for spurious reasons or no reasons, as well as robbing, looting, etc. "No motive"

For example: https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-60988371

This single episode with a cyclist does not fit into the overall picture of corpses neatly arranged in a checkerboard pattern with their hands tied. The armored vehicles in the video are probably Russian, several shots were first fired from an automatic 30-mm cannon of an airborne combat vehicle (BMD) and then another shot from a tank gun. There are a few questions below:
1. Why is the drone operator following this particular person, what is the purpose of his mission?
2. What kind of oblong object similar to a hand grenade launcher shoots this "civilian" from behind at about 0:49?
3. The first shot from an automatic 30-mm cannon of an airborne combat vehicle (BMD) was fired when this person had not even left the corner for line of sight at about 1:48, this person was shouting something and they opened fire at the sound ?
4. A few shots from a BMD cannon and a shot from a tank gun look redundant for one civilian on a bicycle, did the Russian paratroopers run out of machine guns?

If there is evidence here, it is not clear what exactly. Definitely not a mass execution of civilians by Russian soldiers. Maybe the Russians prevented a terrorist attack in this video (or I need a clear answer to my first question, because the reconnaissance drone is too expensive a toy with a short battery life to waste it on idle curiosity of the drone operator). You are trying to pass off as evidence something that is not evidence. The Russians simply have no motive to arrange executions of civilians in Ukraine. But for the Ukrainian side, this is beneficial for a number of reasons. And to blame the Russians, and to send a message to civilians in other cities not to cooperate with the Russian military. On April 2, the National Police of Ukraine on its official website openly wrote that in Bucha, after entering the city, a sweep was being carried out from "collaborators". Apparently, "collaborators" here mean everyone who received food and humanitarian aid from the Russians. Arranging demonstrative executions of civilians and blaming the Russians for everything is quite in style for the side that wanted to spit on the Geneva Convention and continues to torture and kill prisoners.

500,000 Iraqi children were not killed by Madeleine Albright, despite her clumsy statement, but by Saddam Hussein.
However, I do not see how that relates to the current situation in Ukraine. A crime is a crime regardless of who the perpetrator is and what justification is sought for it.