Author

Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 297. (Read 60618 times)

legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1653
Rêlêå§ê ¥ðµr MïñÐ
Criminal gangs formerly known as Russian military forces retreat while killing witnesses:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60967463
The Russian propaganda Telegram channel denies this accusation. Among other things, they refer to this video "Shocking footage of peaceful civilians in Bucha being shot by Rashists", claiming that the bodies are "moving" at 12 15 and 30 seconds. However, other commentators say that these are not "moving bodies", but the effect due to wet glass.



We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.
The Ukrainian and Russian sides are now both actively clearing the information field in the context of a military conflict. After February 24, many opposition channels in Russia that had been operating for decades were closed and Roskomnadzor by decision of the Prosecutor General's Office closed access to many Ukrainian and west media. In its turn, Ukrainian president banned pro-Russian parties in Ukraine and also united all national media on one platform.

... however in a Tzardom, at most they can be blamed for not revolting or being, mostly, apathic about it.
There is a popular expression that rebellion in Russia is senseless and merciless. Revolutions in Russia turn into a bloody massacre and a social catastrophe (Time of Troubles, Pugachev's Rebellion, Russian Civil War, etc). Russian riot sweeps everything in its path, so the Russians endure their rulers to the very end, that's why the Russian rulers so brazenly rob and humiliate people - rulers hope apparently that patience of people will not end during their lifetime. Revolutions in Russia are successful only when the Russian army supports the citizens.



If compare the Russian "Wagner Group" and the Ukrainian "Azov Battalion", the difference between them is that the "Wagner Group" is an unofficial private organization, while "Azov" is the official unit of the National Guard of Ukraine. US Congress recognized "Azov" as a neo-Nazi entity and banned the supply of weapons to them. According to The Economist the Wagner Group is called "Putin's private army", because the head of Ukraine’s security services called it that. But in addition to the words of a Ukrainian official, are there any evidence?



As you may know, Poland is now most active in helping Ukrainians, both defenders and refugees and civilians. Polish civilians are really concerned over russia's threats.
I wonder if Polish civilians see a threat to their own security that the Ukrainian government is persistently trying to make Stepan Bandera as a national hero, who is directly linked with the mass murders of Polish civilians during the Second World War. The fact that Bandera is a hero for some modern Ukrainians, the President Zelensky considers as "a normal and cool thing". In the present Ukraine streets are named after Stepan Bandera and torchlight processions are held with his portraits along the central streets of Kyiv, surrounded by the National Guard. Whether or not, some political scientists explain the activity of the Polish government (including the desire to use the peacekeeping contingent) by the wish to return control over the western regions of Ukraine, which in the past belonged to Poland.

a russian missile recently crashed in Ukraine 20 km from the border with Poland, ie NATO.
It should be clarified that these missiles hit the Yavoriv military base where foreign mercenaries were trained. If I'm not confusing anything, there were rumors before this strike that Russian troops were not going to attack the western part of Ukraine.
sr. member
Activity: 2506
Merit: 319

What you are doing is saying that Ukraine acted "as if" they wanted to be invaded, I do understand the statement and the wording, but it can be easily interpreted as a covered attempt of justification for the aggression so. My question, that you just do not answer, remains: Do you think they wanted to be invaded?


I gave you video of Zelensky advisor where he says they want Russia to attack them. But you don't watch videos, and
somehow my opinion is more important to you, than Zelensky's advisor.

Why is that? Do you think my opinion  more important to Zelensky than his own advisor?
copper member
Activity: 2100
Merit: 903
White Russian
Quote
Yes, this is discrimination based on nationality, a manifestation of Nazism. What collective responsibility are you talking about? I did not vote for Putin in the elections and I am not responsible for his decisions and actions. I am responsible for my decisions and actions, but I have no responsibility simply because I am Russian. I am human and you can treat me without national or racial prejudice.
Maybe you or some other people didn't voted for Putin, but still, he is elected by majority of votes. And according to surveys, over 60% of Russians support war in Ukraine. If they support it, I think they should be ready to accept consequences of it, one of it is banning Russian athletes from competitions. This is waht is collective responsibility. Yes, it's not compleely fair thing because people who aren't responsible fro it and don't support war is also suffering, but nobody haven't offered better solution.
Even if Europe does not have a better solution, this is not a reason to apply a bad solution, simply because they could not come up with anything better. Cultivating Russophobia and thereby encouraging the manifestations of Nazism in Europe is not very smart against the backdrop of the operation to "denazify" Ukraine. Europe should seriously consider its behavior towards Russia, given that Europe depends on Russia, it seems much more than Russia depends on Europe. Nazism did not fall on Ukraine from an unknown distance, Nazism was and remains the highest stage in the development of European philosophical thought - and this is a serious problem in Europe, because Nazism is unacceptable to Russia.
 
#StopHatingRussians
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 2262
BTC or BUST
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Criminal gangs formerly known as Russian military forces retreat while killing witnesses:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60967463

Quote
Journalists entering a Ukrainian town which saw fierce fighting with Russian forces have found dead bodies of men in civilian clothes strewn on a street.

An AFP news agency reporter in Bucha, near Kyiv, counted at least 20 bodies. At least one man had his hands tied.

Minimizing civilian casualties I guess. Could have killed 2000 but didn't.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1590
Do not die for Putin
Polls and support in a country where the opposition is send to jail, there is a law that penalises with 15 years saying anything else than the "official truth" and, in general, has demolished systematically any dissenting voice means very little.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.
I agree with you. Putin destroyed free press and opposition. But even if don't beleive in polls, all things shows that majority of people support war in Ukraine. One reasons of it is that they see one truth on TV and media is washing their brain for few decades. They blame NATO and US for this war, or as @xandry said -  pindos and geyropa. And these who don't support it, they keep silent because they simply fear to ruin lifes for themselves and their families.

I am not sure what you consider all things in this context, despite that, there is a difference between a democracy and a despotic regime. In a democracy, the people of a country are to blame for unethical behaviours of their countries, however in a Tzardom, at most they can be blamed for not revolting or being, mostly, apathic about it.
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1338
Slava Ukraini!
Polls and support in a country where the opposition is send to jail, there is a law that penalises with 15 years saying anything else than the "official truth" and, in general, has demolished systematically any dissenting voice means very little.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.
I agree with you. Putin destroyed free press and opposition. But even if don't beleive in polls, all things shows that majority of people support war in Ukraine. One reasons of it is that they see one truth on TV and media is washing their brain for few decades. They blame NATO and US for this war, or as @xandry said -  pindos and geyropa. And these who don't support it, they keep silent because they simply fear to ruin lifes for themselves and their families.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1590
Do not die for Putin
...
Maybe you or some other people didn't voted for Putin, but still, he is elected by majority of votes. And according to surveys, over 60% of Russians support war in Ukraine. If they support it, I think they should be ready to accept consequences of it, one of it is banning Russian athletes from competitions. This is waht is collective responsibility. Yes, it's not compleely fair thing because people who aren't responsible fro it and don't support war is also suffering, but nobody haven't offered better solution.
...

Polls and support in a country where the opposition is send to jail, there is a law that penalises with 15 years saying anything else than the "official truth" and, in general, has demolished systematically any dissenting voice means very little.

We tend to forget that one of the pillars of a Democracy is free press. The fact that a candidate is "elected" means nothing when the electorate is kept in the dark.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 816
Top Crypto Casino
After the seizure of Crimea, strong anti-Ukrainian propaganda began.

And not only against Ukraine. The list of unfriendly countries is being actively supplemented by Poland and the Baltic States. As you may know, Poland is now most active in helping Ukrainians, both defenders and refugees and civilians. Polish civilians are really concerned over russia's threats. For example, a russian missile recently crashed in Ukraine 20 km from the border with Poland, ie NATO.

https://www.politico.eu/article/western-europe-listen-to-the-baltic-countries-that-know-russia-best-ukraine-poland/

https://cepa.org/the-baltics-should-be-worried/

https://www.ft.com/content/38b1906f-4302-4a09-b304-dc2ecf5dc771
staff
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4111
Crypto Swap Exchange
In Russia there is no Ministry of Truth, which indicates how to think.
No, there is. At the moment, this is not one organization, but several at once: the prosecutor's office, the Prosecutor General's Office, Roskomnadzor and other "power" structures. Even if we talk about the survey that many people refer to here... they asked the question "do you support a special military operation?". Even a complete idiot should realize that this is a technique for manipulating thinking and the results would be completely different if the question sounded like "do you support the war Russia with Ukraine?".
All censorship and silencing of information is the work of the Ministry of Truth. A huge part of the russian population is not even aware of the fact that Russian soldiers staged there and how big is corruption in Russia.

Some reference links:
‘Don’t call it a war’ – propaganda filters the truth about Ukraine on Russian media
Ecли вepить гocyдapcтвeнным coцoпpocaм, бoльшинcтвo poccиян пoддepживaют вoйнy в Укpaинe. Ho мoжнo ли им вepить? Boт пять гpaфикoв, кoтopыe пoмoгaют oтвeтить нa этoт вoпpoc
Пpaвдa ли, чтo влacти пpoвoдят coцoпpocы c пoмoщью cпeцcлyжб? Учeный Гpигopий Юдин oтвeчaeт нa caмыe пoпyляpныe вoпpocы o poccийcкoй coциoлoгии

In Russia, it is not customary to glorify Nazism.
Wagner Group
Cyд в Mocквe пpизнaл плaкaт «Фaшизм нe пpoйдeт» диcкpeдитaциeй Boopyжeнныx cил PФ
Poccия: кceнoфoбия, pacизм, a тeпepь и пpoявлeния нaцизмa
Heoнaцизм в Poccии
Boйнa вышлa из пoдвopoтeн
Aнтифaшиcты в Poccии
Умep Maкcим Tecaк Mapцинкeвич. Кaк oн cтaл глaвным нeoнaциcтoм Poccии и мoг ли пoкoнчить c coбoй?
Myжcкoe гocyдapcтвo
Copaтники Bлaдиcлaвa Пoзднякoвa тpaвят вдoвy тeмнoкoжeгo cтyдeнтa, кoтopый yтoнyл, cпacaя дeвyшкy
Дёмyшкин, Дмитpий Hикoлaeвич

Yes, now skinheads no longer walk the streets and do not kill migrants, but this has turned into some part of the national idea: for many years, through federal channels, Russians have been inspired by how flawed Americans and Europeans are. For example, offensive statements like "pindos", "geyropa" are very common in modern Russia. After the seizure of Crimea, strong anti-Ukrainian propaganda began.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
it is wrong to claim that this block pursues "clearly defensive" goals.

The quibbling of what is "defensive" aside, that's not what I said. I said the expansion since 1990s was clearly defensive, i.e. new countries were joining because they didn't want the repeat of pre/post WW2 annexations and puppetry from Russia. You know, the exact thing that's happening right now with Ukraine. None of these countries had reasons to start a war with Russia, nor would they have been able to drag NATO into starting a war with Russia.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1653
Rêlêå§ê ¥ðµr MïñÐ
NATO nukes haven't moved closer to Russia in the last 30 years and there were no plans to do so.
Apparently, Moscow took very seriously the speech of President Vladimir Zelensky who said at the Munich Conference on February 19, 2022 that Ukraine is ready to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (the "Budapest Memorandum"). Zelensky also asked to announce the time frames for Ukraine's entry into NATO.

NATO expansion was quite clearly defensive and it would have remained so even if Ukraine joined NATO.
The purpose of creating NATO at the initial stage was to contain Soviet control in Europe, but even after the collapse of the USSR, the alliance still continued to move east. In 1999, NATO organized the bombing of Yugoslavia in violation of the UN Charter, so it is wrong to claim that this block pursues "clearly defensive" goals.

Despite Putin's delusions, the West wants a stable prosperous Russia to trade with, not a shithole to fight with.
However UK opposes now to early peace talks between Ukraine and Russia.

If they wanted to attack it they'd have done it in mid-1990s.
It is obvious that no one wanted to mess with Russia because of its nuclear weapons, which left in this country after the collapse of the USSR.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 6424
be constructive or S.T.F.U
I'm not a fan of US "peace and democracy" exports if that's your angle. That doesn't mean that small or large Eastern European countries - or any countries - should be just given to Putin.

The U.S and Russia think alike somehow, they both can just invade any country they want and they both play their "national security" card to justify the invasion, luckily Russia isn't capable (yet) of invading countries on the other side of the planet, also luckily things did not end up well for the last a few U.S invasions, hopefully, this war ends soon and teaches both of these countries (and all the other countries with a history of invasion) to mind their own freaking business.

legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1338
Slava Ukraini!
I am based on data from the Russian Ministry of Defense. There are a lot of fakes on the Ukrainian side (including about 100 captured tanks), Russian data looks reliable. Putin has declared the west to be the "Empire of Lies", so Russians have to tell the truth in order to look like a knight in shining armor. Grin
Why do you think information from Russian defence ministry is reliable and they're not spreading fakes? Blindly believing in information given by one side is living in alternative reality.

They probably expect same respect as recently deceased USA politician who said that death of 500 000 Iraq children
was worth price to be sure that Saddam doesn't have WMDs.

let numbers sink to you for a while:

150 dead children in Ukraine, unprecedented sanctions
500 000 dead children in Iraq, nothing happens

Before you accuse me of Russophilia: yes, I think all wars are disaster, and I think Russia are in Ukraine
not only for geostrategic, but also economic reasons. But Ukrainian leadership played right into Putin
narrative, as if they wanted him to attack

Also, amount of American hypocrisy is staggering
I love when people start whataboutism and brings USA card. How it justifies war in Ukraine? And you really compare number of victims in war which lasted few years and war in Ukraine which started month ago. I'm not going to justify what US did in Iraq, but it's not a reason not to react in things which happening in Ukraine now.
And I don't see how Ukraine actions provocted Putin to attack them. Yes, they wanted to join NATO, but they wouldn't be accepted because of ongoing conflict in Donbass. So, there was no real threat for Russia. And can you answer me, does Ukraine need to be in NATO or NATO need to have Ukraine? I think all things show that NATO don't really want to have cUkraine in their alliance.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2047
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
What you are doing is

He's defending Russia and blaming Ukraine and US.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1590
Do not die for Putin
So, in your view, Ukraine cannot decide what to do because else Putin would not feel "secure" despite having a nuclear arsenal? Just think of it in in the opposite way: "Russian should demilitarise so that Ukraine feels secure". You see how absurd that is?

I'm not saying that we're living in a perfect world...but seeing USA/NATO track record since WW2, can you blame Russians?
Looking at Napoleon, Hitler, Genghis Khan and numerous other invasions, can you blame Russians?

I suggest you look for and watch Oliver Stone (lenghty) interview with Putin on Youtube

hell, USA was afraid of small Grenada and attacked state of 100 thousands people with almost no military

What you are doing is saying that Ukraine acted "as if" they wanted to be invaded, I do understand the statement and the wording, but it can be easily interpreted as a covered attempt of justification for the aggression so. My question, that you just do not answer, remains: Do you think they wanted to be invaded?

A few more questions, just so you have the chance to be clear on your points.

 Do you justify Putin on the grounds of Ukraine not accepting to do his will?
 Do you justify Putin's aggression on the grounds of "since the world is not perfect, Ukraine cannot make its own choices?" Before answering (or more likely, not answering which seems your style) consider that by using that argument nearly anything is justified (e.g. "since the world is not perfect", we can admit modern slavery in Saudi Arabia, children's prostitution in south east Asia, women's systematic assassinations and rapes in Ciudad Juarez, racial profiling,...)
sr. member
Activity: 2506
Merit: 319

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine

Not sure why you're bringing this up. I'm not a fan of US "peace and democracy" exports if that's your angle. That doesn't mean that small or large Eastern European countries - or any countries - should be just given to Putin.


As us American use to say "Might is right"

legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1103

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine
A good example of:



I am based on data from the Russian Ministry of Defense. There are a lot of fakes on the Ukrainian side (including about 100 captured tanks), Russian data looks reliable. Putin has declared the west to be the "Empire of Lies", so Russians have to tell the truth in order to look like a knight in shining armor. Grin
Can't say if you're trolling for fun or for profit.
Russian data reliable? I haven't seen so many lies being told in 1 month ever. Even North Korea and China aren't bullshitting as much as Russia is.
Just this one event when Ukraine was posting Russian losses and Russia wasn't posting anything or claiming there are no losses should make you think. About 2 weeks ago Russian news agency gave an estimate of Russian losses and it was taken down within hours, but not before people made pictures, so it's all to be found in the Internet.

Just some of the Russian lies summed up for you. I don't expect to change your mind about "reliable Russian data" but I'll at least try to expose how wrong you are.


We are not going to attack Ukraine.
We are conducting military drills and will leave the border when they're finished.
We are not attacking Ukraine but moving in to protect our people in newly formed republics.
We are not attacking civilian targets.
We are not attacking Ukraine, only nazis.
All attacks are made by precision weapons aimed at military targets.
There are no losses on our side, all claims from the Ukrainian side are false.
There are some wounded on our side, but nothing serious and all Ukrainian claims are false. We will not give any numbers.
We were shooting at the nuclear power plant because we wanted to secure it so that Ukrainians could not do a provocation by blowing it up.
We destroyed a maternity hospital because Nazis were hiding there.
We are not using conscripts, all soldiers fighting in Ukraine are contract military.
We are not going to force people into service and will only send trained soldiers into Ukraine.


Before the war
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-tells-u-s-no-ukraine-invasion-planned-tass-says
The Kremlin has repeatedly denied it intends to invade Ukraine, though Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded concessions from NATO while building up forces around the country, including tanks, artillery and other equipment.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60407010
Moscow says it is moving troops away from the Ukrainian border after the completion of military exercises.

Beginning of the war
Russia’s defence ministry said on Thursday that its air attacks on Ukraine were not targeting cities and posed no threat to civilians, the RIA news agency reported.
Ukraine said earlier that at least eight people had been killed and nine were wounded by Russian shelling.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/24/russia-says-not-targeting-ukraine-cities-kyiv-claims-8-killed

MOSCOW, February 24. /TASS/. The statements by Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valery Zaluzhny about Russia’s losses of aircraft and armored vehicles are false, the Russian Defense Ministry said on Thursday.
"The statement by the Ukrainian Army’s commander-in-chief Zaluzhny about the alleged losses of Russian aircraft and armored vehicles is an absolute lie," the statement said.

https://tass.com/politics/1409663


The Russian army on Sunday admitted that there were "killed and injured" soldiers among its troops in Ukraine on the fourth day of its invasion of the country, without specifying how many Russians had died there.

https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-russia-war-news-live-updates-will-be-catastrophe-for-world-if-russia-uses-nukes-on-ukraine-says-foreign-minister-10411881.html

Enemy losses as of Feb 27 have amounted to nearly 4,300 &over 200 taken as prisoners of war; Russia denies. Ukraine had opened a hotline for relatives of Russian soldiers who can't be contacted; over 100 calls from Russian mothers were received during the 1st hr: Ukraine at UNSC
Ukrainian Ambassador to UN, Sergiy Kyslytsya, at UNSC meeting on Ukraine, says, "line & dedicated website have been shut down (by Russia).
https://mobile.twitter.com/ANI/status/1498067960296271874

The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation denied the information about the participation of conscript soldiers in a special operation on the territory of Ukraine. This was stated by the official representative of the department Igor Konashenkov
https://hindustannewshub.com/russia-ukraine-news/russian-defense-ministry-denies-participation-of-conscript-soldiers-in-special-operation-against-ukraine-the-moscow-times/


Thousands of Russians are trying to dodge conscription into their army by fleeing to the US via Mexico to claim asylum, immigration lawyers have claimed.
Many are afraid Russia's invasion of Ukraine will leave Putin wanting more people to join up to bolster his troops.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10556775/Conscription-fears-grip-Russia-thousands-try-claim-political-asylum-US.html
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine

Not sure why you're bringing this up. I'm not a fan of US "peace and democracy" exports if that's your angle. That doesn't mean that small or large Eastern European countries - or any countries - should be just given to Putin.
sr. member
Activity: 2506
Merit: 319

It doesn't look like Ukrainians want to be "friendly" (aka Belarus) with Russia so yeah let's bomb them to rubble.

So once again, why USA invaded Grenada and Panama? They don't even share border, and
are pretty miniscule compared to, lets say, Ukraine
Jump to: