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Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 60. (Read 60881 times)

sr. member
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October 03, 2023, 08:24:45 AM

It is like treating adults as either babies or slaves. Grow up, take your own responsibility and make your own mistakes! Is freedom so scary or all this is just to justify Putin?



Is adult Ukrainian free to oppose Zelensky, or adult Russian free to oppose Putin, or adult Snowden free
to expose his country crimes?

I thought so


On the home nations in UK ... belonging to UK is pretty much voluntary - as it should be everywhere.


Many in North Ireland would disagree
legendary
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Do not die for Putin
October 03, 2023, 07:43:50 AM
Branko, they want to try something else. They do not want Moscow and a group of kleptocrats ruling them by dictate... you know, bad experiences in the past with other leaders (Ruzzian or not) and the like. Little matters whatever map you show, people in Ukraine no longer accept being the serf / expendable meat / ready to be starved livestock of Moscovians.

It is not them Branko, it is you, they found a new friend and seem to be ok with hanging out for a while and perhaps marry later.


Nation is not biological but sociological construct..."people" rarely know what they want, its usually other factors
that push us in some direction, otherwise we would have much more countries, like Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland
and maybe even few more just on that single island

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2023/09/the_devolution_of_zelensky.html

So much stuff here to go over.

So, for you nations do not have much to do with people - how is that? a sociological construct that exists on thin air regardless of the ones that are actually living in it by some "outside" influence? A construct requires components, a sociological construct requires humans (you do not seem to like "people"??) with shared culture, values and beliefs to underpin it. e.g. Monarchy was a "construct" until some "people" decided to cut a few heads and remove it.

Overall, you deny people the ability to guide that social superstructure. On what basis? And if it is not going to be the people of a country guiding it, then it has to be some leader out there "that knows what is best for you, regardless of your own view"? which obviously implies that it is ok to use a gun, because "people do not know" and someone has to decide for them", quite convenient to justify a war - so Ukrainians are killed "for their own best interest", since "they do not know what they want".

It is like treating adults as either babies or slaves. Grow up, take your own responsibility and make your own mistakes! Is freedom so scary or all this is just to justify Putin?

And certainly, given a few choices, people do judge what they think is correct and do know what they want, and most of us can judge quite well how we want to move forward and if I or we make mistakes so be it, we still are free to correct them. I do not recognise someone else's general ability "to know best" (I do respect expertise and knowledge in a field, not "God given missions").

As I suspected, there is something more at play on this war than a few territories.

On the home nations in UK ... belonging to UK is pretty much voluntary - as it should be everywhere. The concept of nation nowadays is extremely blurry - there are different grades of belonging and union, all of them legitimate if that is what the humans (better?) living in there decide.




sr. member
Activity: 2506
Merit: 319
October 03, 2023, 04:32:07 AM
Branko, they want to try something else. They do not want Moscow and a group of kleptocrats ruling them by dictate... you know, bad experiences in the past with other leaders (Ruzzian or not) and the like. Little matters whatever map you show, people in Ukraine no longer accept being the serf / expendable meat / ready to be starved livestock of Moscovians.

It is not them Branko, it is you, they found a new friend and seem to be ok with hanging out for a while and perhaps marry later.


Nation is not biological but sociological construct..."people" rarely know what they want, its usually other factors
that push us in some direction, otherwise we would have much more countries, like Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland
and maybe even few more just on that single island

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2023/09/the_devolution_of_zelensky.html
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1590
Do not die for Putin
October 03, 2023, 04:14:30 AM

So, Ukraine gets invaded by Russia twice during WW1


Really? Can you show me on map where that invasions happened



Branko, they want to try something else. They do not want Moscow and a group of kleptocrats ruling them by dictate... you know, bad experiences in the past with other leaders (Ruzzian or not) and the like. Little matters whatever map you show, people in Ukraine no longer accept being the serf / expendable meat / ready to be starved livestock of Moscovians.

It is not them Branko, it is you, they found a new friend and seem to be ok with hanging out for a while and perhaps marry later.

sr. member
Activity: 2506
Merit: 319
October 03, 2023, 03:02:58 AM

So, Ukraine gets invaded by Russia twice during WW1


Really? Can you show me on map where that invasions happened

legendary
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October 02, 2023, 05:21:49 PM
Pre-war Russia had double per capita GDP than Ukraine...millions of Ukrainians went to work to Russia to make ends meet, not other way around
IMF, Americans and corruption devastated Ukraine even before war

Im sure it had nothing to do with the famine that Stalin intentionally caused, killing 3+ million Ukrainians by seizing all the grain in response to middle class of Ukrainians calling for independence from Russiain.  This was before the war where Russia and the Nazis made a secret deal to not get in each others way to each take half of Ukraine (Stalins story was that it was to stop the genocide of ethnic Ukrainian's lol).

Yes, I'm pretty sure, too

Also, Stalin was not Russian

Stalin became the leader of the Soviet union 15 years before the start of WW2.

He literally manufactured a famine that killed millions of Ukrainians because he saw the middle class calling for independence threatening.

So, Ukraine gets invaded by Russia twice during WW1, then goes through a famine that killed millions intentionally created by Stalin, then during WW2 gets tag teamed by the nazis and Soviets, spends the next few decades living under the iron curtain, finally independence in the 90s and now here you are trying to defend Putin blowing up whatever he can because the west is so evil...


legendary
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October 02, 2023, 04:32:22 PM
Eventually Russians would start to wonder "why can't we be like that?" and realize the answer was Putin.
No way that they would realize it. They rather would blame USA, EU and whole West in general for their problems. Like some time ago it even become popular joke to blame Obama for potholes on Russian roads or shit in children playground.




I'm not trying to say that there's no whataboutism going on in Russia, but it's hilarious that with plethora of examples you couldn't come up with anything better than the  Thanks, Obama meme

legendary
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Slava Ukraini!
October 02, 2023, 03:19:21 PM
Eventually Russians would start to wonder "why can't we be like that?" and realize the answer was Putin.
No way that they would realize it. They rather would blame USA, EU and whole West in general for their problems. Like some time ago it even become popular joke to blame Obama for potholes on Russian roads or shit in children playground.

legendary
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Merit: 1368
October 02, 2023, 12:32:42 PM
~

"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War

You got that right about Zelensky. Actually, I think he never stopped being a comedian. Ukraine is so dead, that it takes a comedian to pull off what Zelensky is doing.

Russia is planting landmines everywhere in Ukraine - https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-mining-everywhere-ukraine-explosives-fridges-toys-books-military-engineers-2023-8?op=1. The cost of removing them will be almost as much as the war is costing Ukraine. Much of Ukraine land is worthless simply because of this. Russians won't want the land, even after the war is formally over. And Ukrainians who left the country won't want to come back to this.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=russians+planting+explosive+mines+in+Ukraine+land&ia=web


2 Very Ominous Events That Are Going To Happen This Week



http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/2-very-ominous-events-that-are-going-to-happen-this-week/
This week, two "tests" will be conducted that sound rather ominous.  The first of these "tests" will happen in Russia on Tuesday.  Vladimir Putin has ordered the very first "nationwide nuclear attack exercise" in the entire history of his country, and that is making headlines all over the globe…

Russia will stage its first nationwide nuclear attack exercise across 11 time zones in preparation for potential nuclear war.

It is scheduled to take place on October 3 and will see Vladimir Putin's regime present the West as a nuclear aggressor.

If Vladimir Putin was entirely convinced that there is zero chance that a nuclear war will happen, he would not have ordered these drills.

Obviously he believes that there is at least a remote possibility that the conflict in Ukraine could spark a nuclear war.

It is being reported that this exercise will assume "that martial law has been introduced in Russia" and that a nuclear attack by the western powers would destroy "up to 70% of Russian housing"…

The one-day nuclear attack exercise, which has only ever been done region by region, will include preparation for the destruction of up to 70% of Russian housing stock and life support facilities.

It will assume the scenario that martial law has been introduced in Russia and that is has gone through full mobilisation.
...



Cool
legendary
Activity: 2833
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October 02, 2023, 12:06:32 PM
Some current news on the subject. Funny that republicans just want to separate Ukraine funding so it could be voted on separately instead of lumping it together with US budget, but of course it's being spun differently.  Think we all know that Ukrainian aid will pass in some form this time around, but of course its only a start and will have to repeat again in November/December and then every few months leading closer and closer to US presidential election

Pentagon makes last-minute push to save Ukraine aid as shutdown looms

Pentagon officials are making a last-minute lobbying push on Capitol Hill Saturday to prevent Congress from stripping aid to Ukraine from a funding agreement
[...]
 “Republicans are forcing us to choose between supporting Ukraine and averting a shutdown, and the administration is very concerned,” a congressional aide said.
[...]
 “They are willing, and they are able, to abandon our allies,” DeLauro said of the GOP. “Let us continue to support Ukraine’s fight for freedom.”

There are also elections in Slovakia

With Kremlin apologist leading the polls, Slovakia vote threatens country’s support for Ukraine

Slovaks have been voting in a knife-edge parliamentary election on Saturday that could radically reshape Slovakia’s approach to Ukraine and create deep rifts within NATO and the European Union.

The frontrunner, former Prime Minister Robert Fico, has made no secret of his affinity for the Kremlin during the election campaign. He has criticized the West for supporting Ukraine and adopted a strong anti-US message, even accusing Slovakia’s President Zuzana Čaputová of being an “American agent.” He has said that if elected, he would stop sending weapons to Ukraine and block Ukraine’s NATO ambitions.
[...]

And now to Serbia

NATO bolsters forces in Kosovo as US urges Serbia to withdraw from border

White House calls Serbian military deployment ‘very destabilizing.’
[...]

Of course there is also Africa, Armenia etc...

Soviet Union collapsed because they overestimated their strength, and had no mechanism to scale down, so the west just opened as many fronts as they could to smartly overextend the Soviets. Ironically i believe this is exactly what we're seeing now.

What is unclear is who those "fronts" may be playing in favour of. My guess is that Putin is trying some payback where he can harm European interests for a cheap price, but there is plenty of time for pay-back. One thing at a time, let's first continue to allow Ruzzia to self-demilitarise itself.

Regarding US funding, we all know there are many Republicans that are keen on allowing Putin to achieve something that could be interpreted as victory. Things sometimes are seen different once you are in government if they ever get there, but for now, Ukraine has enough to have the initiative.

RE Serbia, the "front" was already open, is not really that new. I guess Serbia is just checking how big may the appetite of the US to replay Balkans war II.

Regardless, the war in Ukraine requires an strategy shift. The best outcome at this point would be taking Tokmak, which would fall short of a more decisive outcome that could make Ruzzia rethink their plans.

My guess is that with sufficient aviation and the right munitions, the front dynamics could be changed, but that will not happen until Ukraine gets proper support, instead of timid packages.



For me it's quiet clear. Fundamentally, previously expansionism, colonialism, spheres of influences etc... were all decided by force (hard power). Then we got to the pinnacle of that with MAD, so military forces were pretty even on that front. Then US ingeniously realized that expansionism can still continue but instead of hard power which it didn't have much advantage in anymore, it can be achieved with soft power, taking cookies away from places that didn't matter Africa, south America etc... and strategically giving them out in places where they mattered the most, countries bordering their opponents, and places of conflict. China picked up on that and started playing on that field with their Belt and Road Initiative, Russia was too weak to play on that field so it couldn't do anything but watch NATO expanding to its borders with cookies (soft power). Russia was gutted to bare bones with only Russian speaking Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan left in its sphere, it realized that this was an existential threat and drew a red line indicating that they were willing to protect the remainder of the sphere in the only playing field it had a chance in, which was going back to the hard power. But as we know US ignored it, and democratic cookies still showed up in Ukraine and then Kazakhstan and Belarus. Of course Europe saw the soft power expansionism and didn't really cared much for it, but had little choice in the matter. Now essentially gloves are off, all sides will hit where it'll hurt the most and Ukraine is nothing but a small piece in this puzzle. Masses are conditioned to consume and live today by borrowing from the future, so naturally they're not willing to sacrifice short term for some long term gain, thus are more exposed to war fatigue . This is easily exploitable by populist and is less of a concert in a less democratic states, so it has little to do with Putin, just an easy way to get/stay in power for career politicians. Thus US elections shouldn't really be a surprise for anyone.

US passed 45day stopgap budget without Ukrainian aid, so now if they want to send more money it'll have to be voted on separately, so everyone will have to reveal their position, which might carry liability for republicans who'll have to fall in line and get behind on the policy of their next candidate.

And A party headed by a pro-Kremlin figure came out top after securing more votes than expected in an election in Slovakia, official results show, in what could pose a challenge to NATO and EU unity on Ukraine...Speaking after his victory, Fico doubled down on his rhetoric, said he “will do everything” in his power to kickstart Russia-Ukraine peace talks...Fico has pledged an immediate end to Slovak military support for Ukraine and promised to block Ukraine’s NATO ambitions in what would upend Slovakia’s staunch backing for Ukraine...this will likely change under Fico, who has blamed “Ukrainian Nazis and fascists” for provoking Russia’s President Vladimir Putin into launching the invasion

Not a lot of good news for Ukraine, guessing to intersept the news headlines UK former Secretary of State for Defence decided to publishes this optimistic piece to raise the morale. It's filled with typical propaganda you'd expect out of former Secretary of State, except for this one piece.

Ukraine is winning. Now let’s finish the job
...
Ukraine can also play its part. The average age of the soldiers at the front is over 40. I understand President Zelensky’s desire to preserve the young for the future, but the fact is that Russia is mobilising the whole country by stealth. Putin knows a pause will hand him time to build a new army. So just as Britain did in 1939 and 1941, perhaps it is time to reassess the scale of Ukraine’s mobilisation.


So apparently Russia is stealthy mobilising the whole country Huh thus old man from another country demand more and younger Ukrainian blood to the front lines. Should Ukraine start conscripting 16yr olds now?

"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War
sr. member
Activity: 2506
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October 02, 2023, 05:14:31 AM
Pre-war Russia had double per capita GDP than Ukraine...millions of Ukrainians went to work to Russia to make ends meet, not other way around
IMF, Americans and corruption devastated Ukraine even before war

Im sure it had nothing to do with the famine that Stalin intentionally caused, killing 3+ million Ukrainians by seizing all the grain in response to middle class of Ukrainians calling for independence from Russiain.  This was before the war where Russia and the Nazis made a secret deal to not get in each others way to each take half of Ukraine (Stalins story was that it was to stop the genocide of ethnic Ukrainian's lol).

Yes, I'm pretty sure, too

Also, Stalin was not Russian

legendary
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October 02, 2023, 03:49:26 AM
Pre-war Russia had double per capita GDP than Ukraine...millions of Ukrainians went to work to Russia to make ends meet, not other way around
IMF, Americans and corruption devastated Ukraine even before war

Im sure it had nothing to do with the famine that Stalin intentionally caused, killing 3+ million Ukrainians by seizing all the grain in response to middle class of Ukrainians calling for independence from Russiain.  This was before the war where Russia and the Nazis made a secret deal to not get in each others way to each take half of Ukraine (Stalins story was that it was to stop the genocide of ethnic Ukrainian's lol).
sr. member
Activity: 2506
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October 02, 2023, 02:48:08 AM
Thats not the meaning behind my words...the meaning was "GET THE HELL OUT OF UKRAINE AND SOLVE YOUR POVERTY PROBLEMS, LET RUSSIANS
GET INDOOR PLUMBING INSTEAD BEEN FORCED TO GO TO WAR"

That's a new one... Ukrainians forced Russians to not have indoor plumbing? Does that qualify as biological warfare?

The same way USA was forced to threaten to nuke Cuba?
If I would be Putin, I'd again try to put nukes on Cuba, just
to show western hypocrisy

If Ukraine were to continue down the progressive road leading west and it became more like the Western countries that Oligarchs spend most of their time  (and money) and Russians went for vacation back when they were allowed...that would be bad news for Russia.

Eventually Russians would start to wonder "why can't we be like that?" and realize the answer was Putin.

Pre-war Russia had double per capita GDP than Ukraine...millions of Ukrainians went to work to Russia to make ends meet, not other way around
IMF, Americans and corruption devastated Ukraine even before war
legendary
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October 01, 2023, 10:07:07 PM
Thats not the meaning behind my words...the meaning was "GET THE HELL OUT OF UKRAINE AND SOLVE YOUR POVERTY PROBLEMS, LET RUSSIANS
GET INDOOR PLUMBING INSTEAD BEEN FORCED TO GO TO WAR"

That's a new one... Ukrainians forced Russians to not have indoor plumbing? Does that qualify as biological warfare?

The narrative is that Putin was "forced" to go to war. However it is still unclear how was that the only option left. That is, what would have been so terrible and devastating for Ruzzia is they had simply continued being a good commercial partner to Europe and an active responsible actor in the world.

My answer is that Ruzzia does not want to grow as other countries by growing the economy, improving productivity, creating markets, technology or specialising ... oh, or plumbing to avoid gonadic freezing injuries.

Ruzzia grows by grabbing. Thus, if they run the risk of not being able to kleptokrat Ukraine... they are "forced" to war. It is a systemic issue, it is far easier to "grab" a mine and get paid for the resources that actually develop anything useful for the world that someone would be happy to pay for. Just look at Ruzzias exports: Weapons, grain, oil, ... nothing that you have to "create".

Quote
Russia's main exports are: fuels and energy products (63 percent of total shipments, of which crude oil and natural gas accounted for 26 percent and 12 percent respectively); metals (10 percent);

does people realize that Wagner used to get paid a percent of the income generated from mines they were able to "grab" (in Africa or anywhere else BTW).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/06/25/where-does-wagner-get-its-money-how-russias-mercenaries-turned-rebels-earned-millions-from-contracts-and-mining-deals/

Quote
How Russia’s Mercenaries-Turned-Rebels Earned Millions From Contracts And Mining Deals.

This is Ruzzias "growth" model.

If Ukraine were to continue down the progressive road leading west and it became more like the Western countries that Oligarchs spend most of their time  (and money) and Russians went for vacation back when they were allowed...that would be bad news for Russia.

Eventually Russians would start to wonder "why can't we be like that?" and realize the answer was Putin.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1590
Do not die for Putin
October 01, 2023, 07:41:09 PM
Thats not the meaning behind my words...the meaning was "GET THE HELL OUT OF UKRAINE AND SOLVE YOUR POVERTY PROBLEMS, LET RUSSIANS
GET INDOOR PLUMBING INSTEAD BEEN FORCED TO GO TO WAR"

That's a new one... Ukrainians forced Russians to not have indoor plumbing? Does that qualify as biological warfare?

The narrative is that Putin was "forced" to go to war. However it is still unclear how was that the only option left. That is, what would have been so terrible and devastating for Ruzzia is they had simply continued being a good commercial partner to Europe and an active responsible actor in the world.

My answer is that Ruzzia does not want to grow as other countries by growing the economy, improving productivity, creating markets, technology or specialising ... oh, or plumbing to avoid gonadic freezing injuries.

Ruzzia grows by grabbing. Thus, if they run the risk of not being able to kleptokrat Ukraine... they are "forced" to war. It is a systemic issue, it is far easier to "grab" a mine and get paid for the resources that actually develop anything useful for the world that someone would be happy to pay for. Just look at Ruzzias exports: Weapons, grain, oil, ... nothing that you have to "create".

Quote
Russia's main exports are: fuels and energy products (63 percent of total shipments, of which crude oil and natural gas accounted for 26 percent and 12 percent respectively); metals (10 percent);

does people realize that Wagner used to get paid a percent of the income generated from mines they were able to "grab" (in Africa or anywhere else BTW).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/06/25/where-does-wagner-get-its-money-how-russias-mercenaries-turned-rebels-earned-millions-from-contracts-and-mining-deals/

Quote
How Russia’s Mercenaries-Turned-Rebels Earned Millions From Contracts And Mining Deals.

This is Ruzzias "growth" model.
legendary
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https://bpip.org
October 01, 2023, 06:48:10 PM
Thats not the meaning behind my words...the meaning was "GET THE HELL OUT OF UKRAINE AND SOLVE YOUR POVERTY PROBLEMS, LET RUSSIANS
GET INDOOR PLUMBING INSTEAD BEEN FORCED TO GO TO WAR"

That's a new one... Ukrainians forced Russians to not have indoor plumbing? Does that qualify as biological warfare?
sr. member
Activity: 2506
Merit: 319
October 01, 2023, 06:30:11 PM

Quote

(coincidentally ~30 million Russians, the equivalent of the entire population of Texas, have no indoor plumbing).


That's about 10 million less than people who would starve to death in USA if not for food stamps

Love the answer.

In the 21st century we still shit into a hole in the ground when it's negative temperature outside, but you guys also have a problem with poor people!
Let's not try to deny nor fix the problem because someone in another part of the world has some problems too!

-Hey, dude, you still live in your mother's basement and watch porn all day at the age of 30!
-Yes, but people in Zimbabwe live in mud huts and run barefoot, so I'm not in the worst possible situation here.

Is Russian military plans are as well thought prepared as your arguments, you guys are done.

Thats not the meaning behind my words...the meaning was "GET THE HELL OUT OF UKRAINE AND SOLVE YOUR POVERTY PROBLEMS, LET RUSSIANS
GET INDOOR PLUMBING INSTEAD BEEN FORCED TO GO TO WAR"
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1103
October 01, 2023, 04:13:52 PM

Quote

(coincidentally ~30 million Russians, the equivalent of the entire population of Texas, have no indoor plumbing).


That's about 10 million less than people who would starve to death in USA if not for food stamps

Love the answer.

In the 21st century we still shit into a hole in the ground when it's negative temperature outside, but you guys also have a problem with poor people!
Let's not try to deny nor fix the problem because someone in another part of the world has some problems too!

-Hey, dude, you still live in your mother's basement and watch porn all day at the age of 30!
-Yes, but people in Zimbabwe live in mud huts and run barefoot, so I'm not in the worst possible situation here.

If Russian military plans are as well thought and prepared as your arguments, you guys are done.
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1590
Do not die for Putin
October 01, 2023, 02:17:00 PM

Quote

(coincidentally ~30 million Russians, the equivalent of the entire population of Texas, have no indoor plumbing).


That's about 10 million less than people who would starve to death in USA if not for food stamps

Whenever you post something I can't help but imagine you as the guy in this poster:

Loading...

But hey, if you aspire to poop in an outhouse just because 'murricans have food stamps, who am I to argue.

The issue here is that some people in this thread are somehow thinking of Ruzzia as the USSR - the soviet times. It is well said that the USSR was mostly dysfunctional, but it did have at least, in a very general sense, some level of interest in the wellbeing of Ruzzians. People will queue for potatoes, but they would mostly have at least one potato per person and a place to sleep, with another 4 of their family, but warm.

Am I may hear some ask how that can be "good", and my answer is that before they had the Tzars, which did not give much of a deer's excrement for the general population, so, believe it or not, an improvement.

Now, we have... Putin & Co. Which effectively do not give a deer's poo for the general wellbeing of the population, but have certainly kept the highly effective and non-at-all dysfunctional mass control systems of the communism. Kremlin tea or window fly experience are only for the chosen few, but filtration and torture are for the many. As o now, people may speak about the massive traffic jams or the closing of airports, but they dare not speak in public of the "SVO" as they may just get a first row ticket to the front of said event for doing so.

But still, some in here are still talking about "poverty" and comparing Ruzzia with US or the west as they were still talking about the Soviet Union in economy, influence and power. That is gone - as the stockpiles of Soviet equipment are now going to never be replaced.

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1368
October 01, 2023, 12:41:42 PM
If you want to see what is really happening in Ukraine, here it is. And it's about to slide over into the Western Hemisphere.

Douglas Macgregor - 750,000 Lifted in Ukraine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MGFX8I5W0M.

Cool
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