Scientific proof that God exists? - page 166.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: Astargath on July 15, 2017, 01:48:38 PM

Quote from: BADecker on July 15, 2017, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: Astargath on July 14, 2017, 12:30:29 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 10:36:27 AM

Quote from: BADecker on July 11, 2017, 09:01:10 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 04:11:26 PM

No, as you said, it just has to be more complex lol

Are you really trying to say that the universe and cause and effect are barely more complex than you are?

Try tossing countless numbers of electrons, protons, and neutrons into existence in a cause and effect "pattern" and producing intelligence thousands of years later. Do you even know how to start to do this? God did it. His complexity is way beyond that of the resulting Universe He made.

Cool

When did I say ''barely'' You said the thing that created the universe has to be more complex than the universe and I said, ok, then that thing only has to be more complex, that still doesn't show it's god, it just shows the thing that created it has to be more complex.

It seems that badecker has given up, do you admit that you can't prove the existence of God now badecker or are you just trying to ignore me now.

Silly boy. By your posts in Health and Religion, you accept that God exists. Yet you want to deny the scientific proof, even though any dny points you have, have been rebutted (they weren't really points at all). Are you operating on faith that you believe in God now?

Get into the Bible and find out about Him, to strengthen the little bit of faith you have.

Cool

You lost, just admit it. You said complexity proved god and you never explained how, you just said the creator has to be more complex than the universe, which does not prove god.

See what a nice guy I am? I just found it for you:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10718395
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16803380.

Cool

Flyyyy

full member

Activity: 195

Merit: 100

Who needs this evidence? People are already divided into those who believe in God and those who do not believe in God. And the opinion of scientists for these people is not important. I'm not sure that some atheist will read the report of the scientists and sharply change his mind. This has been developing over the years and does not change so quickly

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 15, 2017, 02:35:51 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 15, 2017, 07:44:31 AM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 14, 2017, 10:00:27 PM

Quote from: sirazimuth on July 14, 2017, 09:03:07 PM

telekinesis and ESP is the real deal cuz the CIA says so

The rest of your post is filled with red herrings attempting to BURY this one statement.
As a matter of fact, this document about the CIA's TK testing is 100% authentic.
You did not question the credibility of the CIA.
You have no issue with accepting their research at face value.
So what is the problem with this claim of mine? Why would you remain skeptical about TK with sources like these?
Perhaps you believe that if it sounds like woo and if James Randi did not test it then it was not a valid test? Cheesy

Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

Where is the school that teaches telekinesis if it's real? Why do you think scientists would dismiss it if it was real? The applications would be amazing yet we see no applications whatsoever. Where are all the people moving objects with their minds at?

Now wait just a minute!
What about the scientists who studied the gamma wave spike of the Israeli mentalist? Why would you question the existence of psychics when it was shown by these scholars? Did you find a hole in the methods? Did anyone find a big hole in the experimental methods? Why should there be doubt about the results that have proven TK? Also:
Why do you ask so many questions of me? Maybe it should be your own research project. None of these questions are hard to answer, and even if nobody could teach it then you would still have to admit that it was shown to exist (you can see more episodes of Superhumans for other examples of "gifted people"), I say that these questions are not hard to answer because I gave many varied sources already in my posts. If you want to know of a good psychic development course then I could give you my opinion in PM. A good place to start reading about some evidence from an academic perspective is the book Irreducible Mind.

Because if superpowers like those really existed everyone would know about them. Is not like scientists are purposely hiding it from people, it's just that it doesn't exist.

qwik2learn

hero member

Activity: 636

Merit: 505

Quote from: Astargath on July 15, 2017, 07:44:31 AM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 14, 2017, 10:00:27 PM

Quote from: sirazimuth on July 14, 2017, 09:03:07 PM

telekinesis and ESP is the real deal cuz the CIA says so

The rest of your post is filled with red herrings attempting to BURY this one statement.
As a matter of fact, this document about the CIA's TK testing is 100% authentic.
You did not question the credibility of the CIA.
You have no issue with accepting their research at face value.
So what is the problem with this claim of mine? Why would you remain skeptical about TK with sources like these?
Perhaps you believe that if it sounds like woo and if James Randi did not test it then it was not a valid test? Cheesy

Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

Where is the school that teaches telekinesis if it's real? Why do you think scientists would dismiss it if it was real? The applications would be amazing yet we see no applications whatsoever. Where are all the people moving objects with their minds at?

Now wait just a minute!
What about the scientists who studied the gamma wave spike of the Israeli mentalist? Why would you question the existence of psychics when it was shown by these scholars? Did you find a hole in the methods? Did anyone find a big hole in the experimental methods? Why should there be doubt about the results that have proven TK? Also:
Why do you ask so many questions of me? Maybe it should be your own research project. None of these questions are hard to answer, and even if nobody could teach it then you would still have to admit that it was shown to exist (you can see more episodes of Superhumans for other examples of "gifted people"), I say that these questions are not hard to answer because I gave many varied sources already in my posts. If you want to know of a good psychic development course then I could give you my opinion in PM. A good place to start reading about some evidence from an academic perspective is the book Irreducible Mind.

Bagrras

jr. member

Activity: 57

Merit: 10

Okay, I'm reading it.
But, whatever people say, God exists in ourselves, in our hearts and souls. It doesn't need any scientific proof

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: BADecker on July 15, 2017, 11:19:31 AM

Quote from: Astargath on July 14, 2017, 12:30:29 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 10:36:27 AM

Quote from: BADecker on July 11, 2017, 09:01:10 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 04:11:26 PM

No, as you said, it just has to be more complex lol

Are you really trying to say that the universe and cause and effect are barely more complex than you are?

Try tossing countless numbers of electrons, protons, and neutrons into existence in a cause and effect "pattern" and producing intelligence thousands of years later. Do you even know how to start to do this? God did it. His complexity is way beyond that of the resulting Universe He made.

Cool

When did I say ''barely'' You said the thing that created the universe has to be more complex than the universe and I said, ok, then that thing only has to be more complex, that still doesn't show it's god, it just shows the thing that created it has to be more complex.

It seems that badecker has given up, do you admit that you can't prove the existence of God now badecker or are you just trying to ignore me now.

Silly boy. By your posts in Health and Religion, you accept that God exists. Yet you want to deny the scientific proof, even though any dny points you have, have been rebutted (they weren't really points at all). Are you operating on faith that you believe in God now?

Get into the Bible and find out about Him, to strengthen the little bit of faith you have.

Cool

You lost, just admit it. You said complexity proved god and you never explained how, you just said the creator has to be more complex than the universe, which does not prove god.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: Astargath on July 14, 2017, 12:30:29 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 10:36:27 AM

Quote from: BADecker on July 11, 2017, 09:01:10 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 04:11:26 PM

No, as you said, it just has to be more complex lol

Are you really trying to say that the universe and cause and effect are barely more complex than you are?

Try tossing countless numbers of electrons, protons, and neutrons into existence in a cause and effect "pattern" and producing intelligence thousands of years later. Do you even know how to start to do this? God did it. His complexity is way beyond that of the resulting Universe He made.

Cool

When did I say ''barely'' You said the thing that created the universe has to be more complex than the universe and I said, ok, then that thing only has to be more complex, that still doesn't show it's god, it just shows the thing that created it has to be more complex.

It seems that badecker has given up, do you admit that you can't prove the existence of God now badecker or are you just trying to ignore me now.

Silly boy. By your posts in Health and Religion, you accept that God exists. Yet you want to deny the scientific proof, even though any dny points you have, have been rebutted (they weren't really points at all). Are you operating on faith that you believe in God now?

Get into the Bible and find out about Him, to strengthen the little bit of faith you have.

Cool

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 14, 2017, 10:00:27 PM

Quote from: sirazimuth on July 14, 2017, 09:03:07 PM

telekinesis and ESP is the real deal cuz the CIA says so

The rest of your post is filled with red herrings attempting to BURY this one statement.
As a matter of fact, this document about the CIA's TK testing is 100% authentic.
You did not question the credibility of the CIA.
You have no issue with accepting their research at face value.
So what is the problem with this claim of mine? Why would you remain skeptical about TK with sources like these?
Perhaps you believe that if it sounds like woo and if James Randi did not test it then it was not a valid test? Cheesy

Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

Where is the school that teaches telekinesis if it's real? Why do you think scientists would dismiss it if it was real? The applications would be amazing yet we see no applications whatsoever. Where are all the people moving objects with their minds at?

qwik2learn

hero member

Activity: 636

Merit: 505

Quote from: sirazimuth on July 14, 2017, 09:03:07 PM

telekinesis and ESP is the real deal cuz the CIA says so

The rest of your post is filled with red herrings attempting to BURY this one statement.
As a matter of fact, this document about the CIA's TK testing is 100% authentic.
You did not question the credibility of the CIA.
You have no issue with accepting their research at face value.
So what is the problem with this claim of mine? Why would you remain skeptical about TK with sources like these?
Perhaps you believe that if it sounds like woo and if James Randi did not test it then it was not a valid test? Cheesy

Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

sirazimuth

legendary

Activity: 3388

Merit: 3514

born once atheist

ya know i just had a revelation...
there's this invisible sky fairy that poofed everything into existence in 7 days ... (science proves he exists doncha know)
the earth is flat... (cuz that notbatshit crazy character says so and the youtube videos prove it so that's settled)
the moon landings were a hoax...
telekinesis and ESP is the real deal cuz the CIA says so (and Uri Geller ,so that proves it)...
bigfoot and the lochness monster really exist...
space aliens have visited and kidnapped people...
psychics talk to the dead and predict the future and help police solve crimes...
those water dowsers with the stick really work...
homeopathy pills work....no really they do...just ask james randi... he ate a whole bottle of em. !!
my horoscope describes me to the tea...
hari krishners levitate...
SO...have i missed anything?

oh btw my favorite drink...

A Woo Woo
vodka, peach schnapps, and cranberry juice. Cheesy

justingmorlang

newbie

Activity: 25

Merit: 0

A long time ago I saw a documentary that explained the death according to the theory of relativity, which said that our brain behaves according to these laws and that once dead this energy was released To the universe as a soul

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 10:36:27 AM

Quote from: BADecker on July 11, 2017, 09:01:10 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 11, 2017, 04:11:26 PM

No, as you said, it just has to be more complex lol

Are you really trying to say that the universe and cause and effect are barely more complex than you are?

Try tossing countless numbers of electrons, protons, and neutrons into existence in a cause and effect "pattern" and producing intelligence thousands of years later. Do you even know how to start to do this? God did it. His complexity is way beyond that of the resulting Universe He made.

Cool

When did I say ''barely'' You said the thing that created the universe has to be more complex than the universe and I said, ok, then that thing only has to be more complex, that still doesn't show it's god, it just shows the thing that created it has to be more complex.

It seems that badecker has given up, do you admit that you can't prove the existence of God now badecker or are you just trying to ignore me now.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: notbatman on July 12, 2017, 11:10:38 AM

If Earth looks something like the following then questioning the existence of a creator is a ridiculous proposition.

Flat Earth Model

That's kind of a silly thing to say.

The acceptance of or rejection of God doesn't have anything to do with the earth model. Why not? Because when a GE scientist gets done with his work in the observatory, he goes outside to get in the car to go home. That's when he sees the flat earth, even though he knows it's a globe.

If he happens to believe in God, he understands that God made it look flat by the immense size of it, but that when you get out and away in space, you can see the globe from that distance.

Cool

qwik2learn

hero member

Activity: 636

Merit: 505

Quote from: sirazimuth on July 13, 2017, 07:00:31 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 02:55:17 PM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

You keep mentioning the CIA and this makes it even more of a joke.

What is so unscientific about these trials? Empirical evidence was posted, you posted only your beliefs. You have no real reason to object to a finding by the CIA, and no plausible objection to the psychic experiments on camera.
Read more:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_denying_evidence

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

Yes, the CIA have once believed in telekinesis,

You think they no longer believe in it? Then why the report confirming it?
Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

It comes down to something very simple. If someone claims to have a cure for cancer, you would be seeing everyone getting cured of cancer. If people could fly you would see people flying all the time. If people could actually move objects with their minds, you would be seeing people doing it all the time in real life yet you don't. There are only stupid youtube videos and that's about it, just like there are videos about ghosts and other stupid shit.

sorta like the flat earth movement
you just cant make this shit up....

You do not have a rebuttal for these tests, neither do the other skeptics here. I ask you again: prove that you are rational and give a logical rebuttal.
Where is the explanation for why these tests are "just as unscientific as flat-earth experiments"? You must think that you can just say whatever you want about these experiments, but that is not how science works!

Flying Hellfish

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1756

Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!

Quote from: notbatman on July 12, 2017, 11:10:38 AM

If Earth looks something like the following then questioning the existence of a creator is a ridiculous proposition.

Flat Earth Model

Does the pole need maintenance? Has it ever broken down? whats it made of? How are the Sun and Moon attached to it? Is the sun hot and why doesn't it burn the pole it's attached too?

Lastly, does Santa Claus know he has a big giant fucking pole in his back yard?

sirazimuth

legendary

Activity: 3388

Merit: 3514

born once atheist

Quote from: notbatman on July 12, 2017, 11:10:38 AM

If Earth looks something like the following then questioning the existence of a creator is a ridiculous proposition.

Flat Earth Model

i think my eyes just rolled outta the back of my head....

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 02:55:17 PM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

You keep mentioning the CIA and this makes it even more of a joke.

What is so unscientific about these trials? Empirical evidence was posted, you posted only your beliefs. You have no real reason to object to a finding by the CIA, and no plausible objection to the psychic experiments on camera.
Read more:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_denying_evidence

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

Yes, the CIA have once believed in telekinesis,

You think they no longer believe in it? Then why the report confirming it?
Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

It comes down to something very simple. If someone claims to have a cure for cancer, you would be seeing everyone getting cured of cancer. If people could fly you would see people flying all the time. If people could actually move objects with their minds, you would be seeing people doing it all the time in real life yet you don't. There are only stupid youtube videos and that's about it, just like there are videos about ghosts and other stupid shit.

sorta like the flat earth movement
you just cant make this shit up....

qwik2learn

hero member

Activity: 636

Merit: 505

Quote from: Horacewoodwood on July 13, 2017, 02:57:28 AM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

You keep mentioning the CIA and this makes it even more of a joke.

What is so unscientific about these trials? Empirical evidence was posted, you posted only your beliefs. You have no real reason to object to a finding by the CIA, and no plausible objection to the psychic experiments on camera.
Read more:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_denying_evidence

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

Yes, the CIA have once believed in telekinesis,

You think they no longer believe in it? Then why the report confirming it?
Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

An institution who believed killing goats by staring at them is possible is not quite a proper candidate for scientific research over telekinesis. There is no real report confirming anything, you can contact the CIA and show them the links, see the answer. However, considering you posted a link found in the conspiracy section from reddit, you should see how this becomes highly pathetic. As for the 'unscientific' part, you are either retarded or lack the knowledge to properly read something due to your 'cherrypicking' technique: telekinesis is not about psychology. It would include physics, neuroscience, chemistry, biology. These fields are not researched for telekinesis, so that research that you are talking about are mildly serious and do not confirm absolutely nothing.

It is not upon me to confirm that this report is no longer valid since it appears valid on its face, a government report summarizing the trials of the CIA scientists. Why exactly is this report invalid or unscientific? It is pathetic of you to attack the messengers: CIA scientists, Reddit users, and me, for bringing these two proofs to your attention.
I did also submit a report that incorporated neuroscience into its methods, but you missed that entirely!
Could you kindly explain once again exactly how or why these studies are unscientific? You said there were holes in the science, meaning there are methodological issues. I disagree, these are rigorous tests, I have not heard an atheist explain why this evidence is so unreliable, it comes from elite researchers, that should be enough to warrant a closer investigation.

Horacewoodwood

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 103

https://primedice.com/?c=WINFREEBTC

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

You keep mentioning the CIA and this makes it even more of a joke.

What is so unscientific about these trials? Empirical evidence was posted, you posted only your beliefs. You have no real reason to object to a finding by the CIA, and no plausible objection to the psychic experiments on camera.
Read more:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_denying_evidence

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

Yes, the CIA have once believed in telekinesis,

You think they no longer believe in it? Then why the report confirming it?
Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

An institution who believed killing goats by staring at them is possible is not quite a proper candidate for scientific research over telekinesis. There is no real report confirming anything, you can contact the CIA and show them the links, see the answer. However, considering you posted a link found in the conspiracy section from reddit, you should see how this becomes highly pathetic. As for the 'unscientific' part, you are either retarded or lack the knowledge to properly read something due to your 'cherrypicking' technique: telekinesis is not about psychology. It would include physics, neuroscience, chemistry, biology. These fields are not researched for telekinesis, so that research that you are talking about are mildly serious and do not confirm absolutely nothing.

qwik2learn

hero member

Activity: 636

Merit: 505

Quote from: BADecker on July 12, 2017, 04:04:12 PM

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 02:55:17 PM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

You keep mentioning the CIA and this makes it even more of a joke.

What is so unscientific about these trials? Empirical evidence was posted, you posted only your beliefs. You have no real reason to object to a finding by the CIA, and no plausible objection to the psychic experiments on camera.
Read more:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_denying_evidence

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

Yes, the CIA have once believed in telekinesis,

You think they no longer believe in it? Then why the report confirming it?
Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

It comes down to something very simple. If someone claims to have a cure for cancer, you would be seeing everyone getting cured of cancer. If people could fly you would see people flying all the time. If people could actually move objects with their minds, you would be seeing people doing it all the time in real life yet you don't. There are only stupid youtube videos and that's about it, just like there are videos about ghosts and other stupid shit.

Not necessarily true. The world is quite large. Even with today's communications abilities, there might be loads of people who never find out about it and become cured.

There are others who would not believe the cure, and still others who are simply stubborn. I mean, I show you the cure for death through faith in Jesus salvation, but you don't believe it, and you are stubborn. Why not other people with the cure for cancer?

If anyone is looking for one of the many cures for cancer, simply listen to Rick Simpson Youtube videos.

Cool

You can test RSO as a cure for cancer, and there are testimonies of healing. So far so good.
How can you test the idea of Jesus Salvation? If this is "salvation through faith", then we are talking about receiving a benefit from merely believing that someone has made atonement on your behalf, that kind of belief is an example of "magical thinking", and according to the latest research, this was not even a teaching that was endorsed by Jesus:
https://www.amazon.com/Christs-Ventriloquists-Event-Created-Christianity/dp/0615573010/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

qwik2learn

hero member

Activity: 636

Merit: 505

Quote from: Astargath on July 12, 2017, 02:55:17 PM

Quote from: qwik2learn on July 12, 2017, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

You keep mentioning the CIA and this makes it even more of a joke.

What is so unscientific about these trials? Empirical evidence was posted, you posted only your beliefs. You have no real reason to object to a finding by the CIA, and no plausible objection to the psychic experiments on camera.
Read more:
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/skeptical_misdirection#skeptical_misdirection_denying_evidence

Quote from: Horacewoodwood

Yes, the CIA have once believed in telekinesis,

You think they no longer believe in it? Then why the report confirming it?
Sources:
On-Camera test: http://eegym.com/can-eeg-tell-if-telekinesis-is-a-magicians-trick-2/
Test by the United States CIA: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/66xy95/zhang_baosheng_confirmed_cia_psychic_ability_to/

It comes down to something very simple. If someone claims to have a cure for cancer, you would be seeing everyone getting cured of cancer. If people could fly you would see people flying all the time. If people could actually move objects with their minds, you would be seeing people doing it all the time in real life yet you don't. There are only stupid youtube videos and that's about it, just like there are videos about ghosts and other stupid shit.

Your explanation is not as simple as using the scientific method to answer these questions. What exactly is unscientific about these tests? You simply do not want to address the research or inquire into the facts because it is in conflict with your belief system (BS).

Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 166. (Read 845582 times)