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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 273. (Read 845578 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 27, 2015, 12:07:29 PM
Philosophical explanation > scientific explanation 100% of the time.

ORLY? Care to take a punt at Dualism?

Philosophers, like theists, assume dualism to be a fact, then they spend forty years gazing at their navels and throwing word-salad around in the company of those eager to hear anything which even suggests that there might be a basis for dualism because, you know, souls-n'-shit.

Trouble is, there never has been a good reason to believe in dualism, other than wishful thinking and even then it throws up way more problems in the long run than it solves, which is conveniently ignored or, what's worse, used as 'evidence' of the Things-Which-Cannot-Evar-Be-'Splained!!!1!1!!!1!1

The idea that there exists things for which there can *never* be an explanation, is the founding platform by which philosophers and theists/creationists love to get together and pound out their we're-in-agreement love for each other because, hey, you can't prove love exists but we *know* it does, right?RIGHT? How do you explain the beauty of a sunrise? HMM? You can't explain that! Ergo. . .dualism. Or something equally vapid and 'woo'.


:epicrolleyes:





Dubious reply.

First, with regards to dualism, we already have a logical tautology to reconcile it.  The sameness-in-difference principle states that two or more relational entities must reduce to a common medium.  From that single tautology, we prove that dualism necessarily stems from monism and only constitutes topological differences between real phenomena.

The problem with science is precisely that it assumes dualism through its assumption that the Universe is Positivistic.  This is why science works as it does, controlling for the role of the observer so that some isolated phenomena can be objectively described in relation to some other isolated phenomena.

However, Philosophy in general does not make this assumption as you otherwise suggest.  The reason that classical physics and metaphysics have not yet been synthesized is primarily due to the fact that classical physics maintains assumptions that metaphysics does not.

Second, there are different types of explanations.  Empirical explanations are one kind, philosophical explanations are another.  Just because you don't have an empirical explanation for something doesn't mean there isn't a sound logical explanation.

Finally, to demonstrate just how necessary philosophy is, keep in mind that science is wholly incapable of exploring, verifying, or concluding upon its own assumptions.  The assumption of a Positivistic Universe is fundamentally required for scientific exploration, and yet 1) there is not a shred of evidence that such a Universe exists, and 2) the assumption itself is empirically unfalsifiable.

But if the assumption is empirically unfalsifiable (i.e. It's unscientific), why does science permit its use?  The answer is simple: science yields to Philosophy to justify the Positivistic Universe assumption by deferring to the rules and limitations of sound inference via inductive reasoning.

Again, philosophical explanations > empirical explanations 100% of the time.

This is entirely why the scientific method doesn't work when proving for God. The universe includes everything. But, because of Who God is, the universe might not include God. Or God might be both within and without the universe. Or God might fill the universe as well as being within and without.

There is no other meaning for "the universe" than "everything." So, science can't work with God the same as it works with the universe.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
April 27, 2015, 11:29:50 AM
Philosophical explanation > scientific explanation 100% of the time.

ORLY? Care to take a punt at Dualism?

Philosophers, like theists, assume dualism to be a fact, then they spend forty years gazing at their navels and throwing word-salad around in the company of those eager to hear anything which even suggests that there might be a basis for dualism because, you know, souls-n'-shit.

Trouble is, there never has been a good reason to believe in dualism, other than wishful thinking and even then it throws up way more problems in the long run than it solves, which is conveniently ignored or, what's worse, used as 'evidence' of the Things-Which-Cannot-Evar-Be-'Splained!!!1!1!!!1!1

The idea that there exists things for which there can *never* be an explanation, is the founding platform by which philosophers and theists/creationists love to get together and pound out their we're-in-agreement love for each other because, hey, you can't prove love exists but we *know* it does, right?RIGHT? How do you explain the beauty of a sunrise? HMM? You can't explain that! Ergo. . .dualism. Or something equally vapid and 'woo'.


:epicrolleyes:





Dubious reply.

First, with regards to dualism, we already have a logical tautology to reconcile it.  The sameness-in-difference principle states that two or more relational entities must reduce to a common medium.  From that single tautology, we prove that dualism necessarily stems from monism and only constitutes topological differences between real phenomena.

The problem with science is precisely that it assumes dualism through its assumption that the Universe is Positivistic.  This is why science works as it does, controlling for the role of the observer so that some isolated phenomena can be objectively described in relation to some other isolated phenomena.

However, Philosophy in general does not make this assumption as you otherwise suggest.  The reason that classical physics and metaphysics have not yet been synthesized is primarily due to the fact that classical physics maintains assumptions that metaphysics does not.

Second, there are different types of explanations.  Empirical explanations are one kind, philosophical explanations are another.  Just because you don't have an empirical explanation for something doesn't mean there isn't a sound logical explanation.

Finally, to demonstrate just how necessary philosophy is, keep in mind that science is wholly incapable of exploring, verifying, or concluding upon its own assumptions.  The assumption of a Positivistic Universe is fundamentally required for scientific exploration, and yet 1) there is not a shred of evidence that such a Universe exists, and 2) the assumption itself is empirically unfalsifiable.

But if the assumption is empirically unfalsifiable (i.e. It's unscientific), why does science permit its use?  The answer is simple: science yields to Philosophy to justify the Positivistic Universe assumption by deferring to the rules and limitations of sound inference via inductive reasoning.

Again, philosophical explanations > empirical explanations 100% of the time.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 1254
Thread-puller extraordinaire
April 27, 2015, 11:03:36 AM
Philosophical explanation > scientific explanation 100% of the time.

ORLY? Care to take a punt at Dualism?

Philosophers, like theists, assume dualism to be a fact, then they spend forty years gazing at their navels and throwing word-salad around in the company of those eager to hear anything which even suggests that there might be a basis for dualism because, you know, souls-n'-shit.

Trouble is, there never has been a good reason to believe in dualism, other than wishful thinking and even then it throws up way more problems in the long run than it solves, which is conveniently ignored or, what's worse, used as 'evidence' of the Things-Which-Cannot-Evar-Be-'Splained!!!1!1!!!1!1

The idea that there exists things for which there can *never* be an explanation, is the founding platform by which philosophers and theists/creationists love to get together and pound out their we're-in-agreement love for each other because, hey, you can't prove love exists but we *know* it does, right?RIGHT? How do you explain the beauty of a sunrise? HMM? You can't explain that! Ergo. . .dualism. Or something equally vapid and 'woo'.


:epicrolleyes:



Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
April 26, 2015, 03:55:53 PM
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
April 26, 2015, 02:35:28 PM
Someone claiming to be an inter-dimensional galactic commander is already clearly suffering from a delusional mind state.

How would you KNOW? I see that you have used an ad-hominem instead of responding to the content.

Well, at no point is there any evidence presented to support the assertion he is an inter-dimensional galactic commander and ALL cases so far of people claiming to be inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, gods, angels, demons, etc. etc. have also failed to be able to support their own claims and are usually the result of either inherent mental illness, or drug-induced psychosis, such as chronic amphetamine abuse, which is known to induce a condition called 'amphetamine psychosis'.

So, as far as 'how would I KNOW'? I think it is pretty fucking safe to say that, until your 'galactic commander' can actually offer up valid evidence of his inter-dimensional state of being, he's just another nutter.

STOP honoring evil

If you want to know GOD
You have a good chance of proving to yourself that God exists if you get married.
YES, You stand a good chance of proving to yourself that God exists if you get married!

Here is a guide!

http://marriagemissions.com/navigating-stages-of-marriage-marriage-message-255-2/

Pascal would suggest to you to get married so that you might become a Christian. LOVE is real, and anyone can prove that to themselves as well!

Pascal's Wager doesn't inform us as to which god we should be worshiping and, as we know, worshiping the wrong god can be catastrophic for your soul, amirite?!!! LOL. So the 'correct' response to Pascal's Wager is not to worship any of them.

BTW, I'm married, but we had a secular ceremony, does that mean I don't get to prove to myself that your god exists? What about all the people who get married through other religions, you know, the 'wrong' ones?


Philosophical explanation > scientific explanation 100% of the time.

Empiricism is merely a subset of philosophy.  Where empirical/scientific evidence contradicts itself, philosophy and/or mathematics is needed to resolve the contradiction.  Science has no built in mechanism for reconciling contradictory empirical data.   And more generally, Philosophy is entirely responsible for allowing scientific exploration in the first place.  Without philosophy, science is entirely useless (because it axiomatically wouldn't exist).
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
April 26, 2015, 12:13:31 PM
l's Wager doesn't inform us as to which god we should be worshiping and, as we know, worshiping the wrong god can be catastrophic for your soul, amirite?!!! LOL. So the 'correct' response to Pascal's Wager is not to worship any of them.

Precisely. Worshiping a god is extremely high risk and foolish. The risk you are unwittingly worshiping the devil in disguise is just too high.
The wise steer clear of any of that Russian roulette game.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 1254
Thread-puller extraordinaire
April 26, 2015, 08:29:42 AM
Someone claiming to be an inter-dimensional galactic commander is already clearly suffering from a delusional mind state.

How would you KNOW? I see that you have used an ad-hominem instead of responding to the content.

Well, at no point is there any evidence presented to support the assertion he is an inter-dimensional galactic commander and ALL cases so far of people claiming to be inter-dimensional beings, space aliens, gods, angels, demons, etc. etc. have also failed to be able to support their own claims and are usually the result of either inherent mental illness, or drug-induced psychosis, such as chronic amphetamine abuse, which is known to induce a condition called 'amphetamine psychosis'.

So, as far as 'how would I KNOW'? I think it is pretty fucking safe to say that, until your 'galactic commander' can actually offer up valid evidence of his inter-dimensional state of being, he's just another nutter.

STOP honoring evil

If you want to know GOD
You have a good chance of proving to yourself that God exists if you get married.
YES, You stand a good chance of proving to yourself that God exists if you get married!

Here is a guide!

http://marriagemissions.com/navigating-stages-of-marriage-marriage-message-255-2/

Pascal would suggest to you to get married so that you might become a Christian. LOVE is real, and anyone can prove that to themselves as well!

Pascal's Wager doesn't inform us as to which god we should be worshiping and, as we know, worshiping the wrong god can be catastrophic for your soul, amirite?!!! LOL. So the 'correct' response to Pascal's Wager is not to worship any of them.

BTW, I'm married, but we had a secular ceremony, does that mean I don't get to prove to myself that your god exists? What about all the people who get married through other religions, you know, the 'wrong' ones?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
April 26, 2015, 06:45:07 AM
This is what the old Jesus with his followers was like 2000 years ago.



If Jesus was born today instead of back then he would be LL Cool Jesus. He wouldn't have followers, he'd have a posse and tons of bitches n hoes.

newbie
Activity: 3
Merit: 0
April 26, 2015, 05:24:37 AM
no scientific! just god! )))
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
April 26, 2015, 04:58:59 AM
Such simple proof of no god or powerless god.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11199612
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 11:55:18 PM
STOP honoring evil

If you want to know GOD
You have a good chance of proving to yourself that God exists if you get married.
YES, You stand a good chance of proving to yourself that God exists if you get married!

Here is a guide!

http://marriagemissions.com/navigating-stages-of-marriage-marriage-message-255-2/

Pascal would suggest to you to get married so that you might become a Christian. LOVE is real, and anyone can prove that to themselves as well!

Search this text for 'wager' for a better understanding of Pascal's wager:
http://library.atgti.az/categories/philosophy/R.Sorensen%20-%20A%20Brief%20History%20of%20the%20Paradox.pdf

This site is for grieving parents, victims of spiritual and emotional trauma, and others struggling to understand this spiritual journey we call life.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Knowledge could but approximate existence.
April 25, 2015, 10:33:02 PM

Quote from: Kevin Williams. “Scientific Evidence Supporting Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife.” 2014. Web. 26 Apr. 2015. link=http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a23
Since matter is now seen as a form of energy, an energy body alternative to the material body could explain the NDE.


Energies do not have the traits of quarks (e.g., the up and down quark) and leptons (e.g., the electron) that (are generally known to quantum mechanics to) permit them the (at least, physical) constitution of a Homo sapiens sapiens.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
April 25, 2015, 10:11:33 PM
As long as you maintain science as your main god, you are going to have a hard time in understanding the real God.

God is so "great" that such a question can't apply. Asking such a question is expressing ignorance more than simply saying something like, "God is way beyond my understanding."

Again, how can something be understood yet be way beyond our understanding?

Don't bother trying to answer, you'll only be dishonest again.

When the thing being understood has explained itself in little tiny ways that we can understand.

Smiley

Tell me again how your deity 'explains' itself and why this explanation is a reasonable data set with which to formulate an hypothesis.

Or is it that you actually mean your subjective experience, coupled with fistfuls of bronze-age anecdotal tales?

Since you want to remain ignorant about God, I wouldn't want to take your ignorance away from you. In the event that there you have some slight sincere question, my info at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10718395 shows that God exists beyond anything that science without my info can show one way or another. If you really want to find out what it is all about, start reading the New Testament in the Bible, and finish up with the Old Testament.

Smiley

Oh badecker, how many times have you posted your shitty link? No one accepts that as proof yet you still want to post it

You're talking to someone who thinks an inductive fallacy is about poor electrical superconductors.

Just a friendly warning Smiley

...

Just curious, though. You have said in the past (if I didn't misunderstand) that you believe that God exists. Why do you believe? Or is it simply that you do, and the answer as to why isn't easy to say?

Smiley

I'll repeat myself for the one- or two-dozenth time:

I believe in God because I believe Intelligent Design is logically necessary.  In other words, I believe in God because I have reasoned that God exists inasmuch as Intelligent Design exists.

So, again, you and I share something in common, i.e. we both believe in God.

But again, I remind you and your goldfish-like memory that, despite the fact we generally both believe in God, your reasons for believing God exists are atrocious, inconsistent, contradictory, and generally do not make sense at all.  It's unfortunate that you dedicate so much time to wrongful thinking instead of trying to learn.   If you spent more time understanding why literally every person who reads your posts, regardless of whether they are an atheist or a theist, knows that you're completely full of shit, you wouldn't continue to embarrass yourself.

Every argument of yours sucks, and sucks hard.
legendary
Activity: 868
Merit: 1058
Creator of Nexus http://nexus.io
April 25, 2015, 10:04:11 PM
The point in which duality recognizes neutrality.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 07:38:14 PM


The only realistic answer to the question, 'What is God?,' is that 'God' is only an idea representing whatever people want it to mean. 'God,' as a concept, has so many different meanings to so many different people throughout history that it is really useless to talk about the idea of a God until empirical evidence for such a Supreme Being or Consciousness can be discovered.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 02:36:09 PM
Someone claiming to be an inter-dimensional galactic commander is already clearly suffering from a delusional mind state.

How would you KNOW? I see that you have used an ad-hominem instead of responding to the content.

I suggest you reference Journal 21, Chapter 3 and Journal 31, Chapter 13; I propose the straightforward idea that God has come to speak with you and I through these Journals.

My proposal is modest; if this thread would but read, the truth about man and god would be known.

HATONN LIES
Readers, I and my secretary are continually called liars and bigots and every other bad name you can conjure. How so? Because I bring you that which is offered about your globe?? I don't have to go forth into the "universe" to find invisible stories to lay on you--if these be LIES--WHOSE LIES ARE THEY?? I AM BUT AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER!! SO BE IT.

A rehash of other's opinion and interpretations is worthless. This is precisely why I give none of my scribe's opinions and always can back up statements with facts.
Excellent opportunity to get our material forth, however, for controversy of evil with truth is excellent for Aton does not often become faint at heart!

Why do you send correspondence and messages to me (and you did so), unless you want a response? Further, did you expect me to sit and feed you back the lies simply because you assume "THIS RECEIVER" TO BE UNINFORMED AND PLAYING THE SAME OLD GAME OF "DUPE THE PUBLIC"?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 01:56:09 PM
Someone claiming to be an inter-dimensional galactic commander is already clearly suffering from a delusional mind state.

How would you KNOW? I see that you have used an ad-hominem instead of responding to the content.

Cryptodevil, please consider Nagel's assertion that materialism—the idea that everything can be explained (eventually) in terms of physics—actually fails to do just that. Nagel always backs up his assertions; how about you?
Nagel insists that we know some things to exist even if materialism omits or ignores or is oblivious to them . . . It doesn’t explain, for example, why the world exists at all, or how life arose from nonlife. Closer to home, it doesn’t plausibly explain the fundamental beliefs we rely on as we go about our everyday business: the truth of our subjective experience, our ability to reason, our capacity to recognize that some acts are virtuous and others aren’t. These failures, Nagel says, aren’t just temporary gaps in our knowledge, waiting to be filled in by new discoveries in science. On its own terms, materialism cannot account for brute facts. Brute facts are irreducible, and materialism, which operates by breaking things down to their physical components, stands useless before them. “There is little or no possibility,” he writes, “that these facts depend on nothing but the laws of physics.”
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 01:30:50 PM
1) If our brains are only a high-tech computer-like lump of tissue which produces our mind and personality, why does it bother to create illusions at the time of death?

Even color is a hallucination: it is begotten, in part, of the collapse of the probability waves of light quanta.

NDEs correspond with the "quirky" principles found in physics.
The transcendent nature of minds in NDEs corresponds with physics,
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 01:22:08 PM
So where is YOUR non-god explanation for the afterlife?

There is no afterlife.  It was made up by people who don't understand or are scared of death.

so what you believe if there is no afterlife? on me afterlife is there.

Where is your evidence for an afterlife? I don't think NDEs would count as the person is not even dead yet - therefore they are still a product of life and not afterlife. Just like people wou take drugs and hallucinate are still alive but still seeing weird things.
Even if NDEs do not count, you can see the evidence for past lives in Stevenson's research and the Eisenbeiss case, among others:
http://www.aeces.info/Top40/top40-main.shtml
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a39

NDEs do count as evidence; NDEs are different from hallucinations;
There is no reason to believe that NDEs are the result of psychiatric pathology or brain dysfunction.
People have been clinically dead for several days.
NDEs change people unlike hallucinations and dreams
NDEs cannot be explained by brain chemistry alone.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
April 25, 2015, 01:15:33 PM
Someone claiming to be an inter-dimensional galactic commander is already clearly suffering from a delusional mind state.

How would you KNOW? I see that you have used an ad-hominem instead of responding to the content.

A delusional being would speak falsely, so where is the being speaking falsely? You have not yet given an adequate reason for rejecting the existence of God's messengers, so your argument is unsound.

I provided links to reputable academic journals which support the idea that "life is more than just complicated chemistry", and also pointed you to AECES top 40, where serious academic observations are recorded. Furthermore, you can replicate Dr. Stevenson's study all by yourself, as I have pointed out to Vod. Therefore, you will please go and respond to each of these points before calling my assertions dishonest.

Also,
Skepticism of psychic phenomena is based more on a religion of materialism than on hard science. That is why you use an ad-hominem attack against both Hatonn and I.
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