Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 478. (Read 845809 times)

How does one come by "right?"
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Not sure I understand your question.  Are you commenting on how I said that God will look at their hearts and see if people want to do what is "right?" 

God's law is the truth and what is "right."  In a way, our conscience is what can often give us a sense of right and wrong as well.

But if you were to ask me to summarize what is "right" in a short sentence it would be to "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"  This is the greatest commandment is it not?

How does one come by "right?"

God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  

I understand and respect your Christian views.  With that, how do you explain the sometimes conflicting views of other religions?  Are the other 70% of the world’s population dammed to Hell because they don’t believe in your God? 

Well, there is the main question.  I often think that the problem many people have (including several in the scientific community) isn't so much about the question of if God exists, it is more about if He does exist, how could he allow such suffering?

I am sure you have heard the typical debates on this matter.  It becomes more a question about free-will vs. God's intervention.  

My thoughts on it are as follows:

God creates the world.  God creates man.  Give man (Adam and Eve) free will to choose.  Man chooses not to obey God (eating forbidden fruit) then man is given consequences for that choice.  Sin enters the world because of that choice.  With sin (and Satan's influence) comes death, sickness, suffering, hate, murder and all of the other painful things we deal with on a daily basis.  But God provides hope and way to be freed from this sinful world we are currently in.  He promises to send His son to pay the penalty for the choices we have made and offers us eternal life free from these things.  Basically we have a gift of our sentence being pardoned if we so choose to accept it.  This life is temporary.  Eternity is the main goal we should be focused on.

All that said, do I often wonder why God doesn't intervene more often?  Should he have a "smite button" that he presses anytime we, as humans, choose to do evil or make choices that go against Him?  If He did that, I would already be smitten.    Thankfully, He is patient and forgiving.  He can heal sickness and I have seen Him do so at times, but He is more concerned about our eternal well being than our present physical well being.  Why doesn't he heal all the time?  Do I understand God's ways?  Of course not.  I can't.  But I can understand that He loves me, loves you, loves the world so much that He gave His son as a ransom for our sins so we can have hope.  That is enough for me.  And if I had a sick child in the hospital I would still have hope.  I have suffered abuse but I know Jesus was there with me.  He understands our pain and suffering and we do not have to endure it alone.  This life is not all that there is.  To me, the thought that this evil and sinful world is all we have is the most depressing thought of all.  As a Christian, it is the closest to hell I will ever be and it keeps everything in perspective.  This is also why Christians can come across as so pushy and desperate at times to convince others to see things the way we do.  We know this could be the closest thing to hell we experience as humans and we hope and pray others will see this and understand this and humbly turn back to God instead of being angry with Him.  The flip side?  This is the closest thing to heaven people who do not accept Jesus will experience.  (For those that do not get a chance to accept Jesus because they have never heard, were born in the jungle, die as babies, etc.  I firmly believe that they will still be given that chance in Sheol, after death.  God is fair.  He puts fairness in our hearts.  However, the Bible is vague about what that looks like and it is not a commonly held belief.  I think the black and white, heaven and hell translations is a bit too simplistic but I digress here.)

As for the "image of God"  we have a mind, a physical body and a soul or "spirit."  I believe it is the eternal soul that differentiates us.  We also have the ability to see good and evil and understand these things.  That is what I think of when I think about being created in God's image.   Thankfully we were not created all-powerful.  I can only imagine what the world would be like then.  It might make for an interesting sci-fi movie though.

And yes, there are sinful people in churches doing evil things in God's name.  They will be judged harshly, more harshly than anyone else I believe, for doing these things when the final day of judgement arrives.  

Aliens.... Exist... and a much better bet then if god Exists....


If God Exists.... why does he let the innocent suffer so much...

Example a young 3 year old child sick in hospitals all around the world...

and we are all made in the image of god.. no way if I was made in the image of god I would have his power... and then no children would be suffering..


The only thing god is... is a money maker for the church... and do not get me started on that one...

If you want to believe in something.. believe in KARMA and YOUR INNER FEELINGS.... and oh yer ALIENSSSSSSSSSS......

The ONLY reason that there has never been a finding that is inconsistent with evolutionary theory, is that evolutionary theory essentially (if not straight forwardly) says that every finding is consistent with evolutionary theory. The question is, how do we make multitudes of findings that don't seem to fit with each other in evolutionary theory, or each other in any kind of theory, so that they fit? And how do we do it in the light of many (most?) of those findings fitting creationism and who knows what other theories, as well? The point is, in this exact way, evolutionary theory has virtually proven that it is not worthy of even being called theory, to say nothing about having any kind of chance whatsoever of becoming law. Of course, there are going to be all kinds of scientists that think or say it is law. And there are all kinds of political scientists who say it is law no matter what they think, for other purposes.

I'm not sure what you mean? There has never been a single finding that is inconsistent with evolutionary theory. It would only take one finding to destroy a theory. That is why in science a theory is a powerful idea.

I disagree that there are scientists that aren't trying to prove their own beliefs.  Many (not all of course) do throw out evidence that points towards intelligent design, for example.  They filter everything from that lens and are often close minded to anything that points towards that.  Also, they come up with their own theories, not based on an observable evidence, for evolution but this is based on "faith" too.  They have not observed the big bang have they?  But they believe it as fact, when indeed it isn't a proven fact.  It is even taught as a fact to students today in many schools and that, to me, is a travesty.  It needs to be taught as it really is, a theory!  The act of even questioning the big bang causes these scientist to look down with their noses high in the air like whoever would dare question that is an idiot.

As scientists are able to collect more and different kinds of evidence, much of the other evidence points away from evolution. Then there are those scientists who interpret the evidence in a non-evolution direction.

But pretty sure they won't be thinking 2,000 year old beliefs are LESS silly  


Scientists aren't trying to prove evolution. First, they don't have to, and second, that's not how science works. Christian "science" gets an idea or an assumption and tries to prove or disprove it. Real actual science doesn't start with ideas or assumptions. It tests and collects data, and makes conclusions based on that data, whatever those conclusions may be. So, for example, christian "science" will start with the assumption that the earth is 6,000 years old, and will look specifically for evidence to support it. Actual science will make no assumptions about the age of the planet, and will take all evidence into consideration, regardless of what it says about the earth's age. That's why scientists don't need to prove evolution. The evidence they collect just keeps pointing to it already.

Yes, but some people are going to keep on trying, just like some scientists keep on trying to prove something as silly as evolution.

That was 500 years ago. Five hundred years from now scientists will be amazed at the silly things scientists of the 21st century believed.

Hi! Yeah, definitely!

Adam's thread?

Not really a joke. If they are christian and believe in hell, then that claim will have meaning to them, even if it doesn't to me.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Within entropism (Limakasidian tradition), it is oft recommended that one submit themselves to that being exemplified by black hole. In easing this procession, it is recommended one first submit to that being of stone.

Are you really seriously thinking about suicide?  I saw your post in Adam's thread.   Bitcoin is so not worth it Kenji!  And if you are feeling overwhelmed and depressed about the current price just have a little patience.  It will rebound.  I have alot of money tied up in BTC too and these dips are very painful but I have seen how fast the price can rise and realize that it is a game of patience really.  When it does rise again,  make sure to cash some out so that you can handle the next drop, that will most likely happen.   It is a very volatile investment and can certainly lead to some depressing and on the other side euphoric episodes.  Not being over invested helps to ease the pain a bit.

Rassah!  Long time no see!  You don't seem to hang out on Adam's thread do you?  That is the hangout for many of us as of late.

I miss our philosophical discussions though.  I saw the title of this thread and it appears that I have missed out on hours of fun debates.

I figured anything I said might be said in vain though.   

Was that supposed to be a joke about "reposting lies and going to hell?" 

If there is no God there is no heaven or hell so how could anyone go to hell by reposting anything if there is no such a place? 

Suicide is murder. However, Suicide can be laying down your life for your friends, like dying to protect your buddies in war.

It depends on if the person has faith in the forgiveness that God provides through Jesus, or not. Not an easy way to answer this.

God dont punish suicide, it is their negative thoughts that provoking them. 

if a god exist do you guys believe he will punish a suicide?