Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 71. (Read 845654 times)

You've stated your god does not have a cause. 

I wish I knew if you were a liar/troll, or just a fool.  :/

1) Everything has a cause.

2) The Universe began to exist.

3) Therefore, the Universe has a cause.

4) Conclusion: Therefore the cause behind the existence of the Universe was God

1A) Firstly this is just an appeal to intuition and intuition isn't always a pure pathway to truth (i.e. - intuition states that the Sun goes around the Earth). There may indeed always be a cause for anything and everything that has or ever will come into existence, including whatever came into existence at the Big Bang event (the postulated beginning of our Universe), but that cause isn't always evident. Some quantum physicists would in fact claim that there are uncaused things (i.e. - radioactivity).

1B) Whatever cause in itself that has come into existence has, IMHO, thus resulted from a previous cause, which had a previous cause which had a previous cause and that chain can be extended as far back as you wish. Stated another way, there is no such thing as a First Cause.

1C) Whatever thing that came into existence came into existence from a previous thing(s) which existed and which in turn came into existence from a previous thing(s) which in turn came into existence from yet a previous thing and so on as far back as you wish to go. Stated another way, you can only bring something into existence from a previous something. You cannot bring a material something into existence from pure nothingness or from anything immaterial.

2) Premise: The Universe began to exist.

2A) I need note here that the "Universe" is defined as the sum total of all the bits and pieces that collectively make up the, or our, "Universe". The "Universe" is just the label we give to all of those bits and pieces (particles, atoms, molecules, dust, rocks, planets, stars, etc.) that came into existence in-the-beginning or later emerged into existence out of simpler states (i.e. – molecules from atoms).

2B) The assumption here is that our Universe is the be-all-and-end-all of the Cosmos**. While that may be the case, it's not necessarily so. Just because you came into existence doesn't mean that others don't also exist. Our Universe could be one of many. There could be parallel universes or even a postulated Multiverse or Megaverse - maybe.

3) Conclusion: Therefore, the Universe has a cause.

3A) The effect (resulting from the cause) of the Universe coming into existence or coming into being is called the Big Bang event, so the cause of the Universe (i.e. - the cause of the Big Bang event) was something prior to the Big Bang event. If the Universe had a cause then that cause was obviously pre-Universe or before the Big Bang event.

3B) That's where the cosmological buck has to stop since we can't observe or measure anything prior to the Big Bang event.

3C) In context all we can say is that our Universe came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang event and that the Big Bang event had a cause. That says nothing about the larger context as suggested in 2B. It could be that our Universe popped into existence from within a larger Cosmos just like a baby pops out of the womb at birth.

4) Conclusion: Therefore the cause behind the existence of the Universe was God.

4A) Nearly all theists state that the cause of the Universe was due to an omnipresent (all-present), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), all-loving, perfectly moral, and perfectly benevolent Almighty Being (i.e. - God). However these traits along with an entity who is itself uncaused, beginning-less, changeless, eternal, timeless, and space-less; an immaterial all powerful being who is a personal agent, endowed with freedom of the will, aren't verified; aren't all mutually inclusive and logical, with many an inherent philosophical inconsistency as well as many being actually contradicted by Biblical chapter-and-verse passages (i.e. - God is hardly all-loving).

4B) But a supernatural deity with some or all of these traits is also a total fallacy even if for no other reason than that the Cosmos has to be eternal (temporally infinite) since as I noted above there can be no First Cause and because you can't, and not even God can, create something material from the immaterial. It's a logical contradiction to postulate the creation / existence of an absolute something from an absolute state of pure nothingness and even God has to conform to logic (i.e. - God can't create a spherical cube). If you can't create something from nothing then something has always existed. If the Cosmos is infinite or endlessly cyclic, an infinitely repeating causal loop where A causes B and B in turn causes A, then what need for a God? If therefore, as theists want, that the Cosmos is finite since infinities aren't possible (i.e. - they tend to throw spanners into theistic philosophies - see 4D), then God too is temporally finite, therefore had a beginning and therefore had a cause. That of course contradicts the concept of an eternal deity and raises the obvious question, what caused God? If God is eternal then God created the Cosmos and our Universe an infinite time ago which is clearly not the case.

4C) Since science can't explain or actually identify the "cause" that caused the existence of our Universe, on the grounds that the cause preceded the Big Bang event and thus this cause can't be observed or measured, theists step into the gap and conclude that God is that cause. This God-of-the-gaps conclusion is also a fallacy since there are numerous other alternatives. The cause of the Universe could have been the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any deity or deities from any of the world's hundreds of creation mythologies. Maybe it was just a natural Big Crunch (a contracting universe) turning inside out at crunch time into a Big Bang; maybe an unknown and perhaps unknowable other natural cause we haven’t imagined yet; perhaps a quantum fluctuation; even perhaps (and this is my bias) a mortal, fallible, flesh-and-blood computer / software programmer fills the gap. God is only one hypothesis of many.

4D) Theists, even some cosmologists mistakenly say that there can't be an infinite Cosmos due to entropy (the state of useable energy available). An infinite Cosmos would have attained a state of maximum entropy an infinite time ago but that is not what we observe. I contend that at the moment of the Big Bang the clock was reset to time equals zero; the Universe was restored to original factory settings (including a state of minimum entropy). Consider this analogy. You only started ageing, started running down, and started increasing your entropy, at your conception. That's when your clock started. That state of conception was your original factory condition. What came before was irrelevant since as far as you are concerned, there was no before (although clearly there was). You had a cause therefore there was a state that existed before you. That cause was your parents and their state of entropy is an irrelevance as far as you (their child) is concerned at conception.

I believe that.  We'd have to throw "science" and "proof" out the window, and just rely on fairy tales.

Much like you do today, BD.

I was only copying you.     

Scientific theories is an important point. Scientific theories have little strength regarding what exists. They are only there to put forth ideas. The reason that they are not important regarding reality is, opposing theories can be made. In fact, this happens all the time.

If somebody wanted to make a literal scientific theory regarding God, that theory would destroy a whole bunch of other scientific theories, because it could be made to be way more logical. How? Anything that we didn't have an answer for could be attributed to God. A good portion of the reason why we have scientific theories is to get rid of God in our thinking, whether or not He is real.

Seems like a classic tactic when you are losing the argument but your delusion is too strong to accept it

The guys were watching a ball game rerun. I butted in and asked if they had any ideas how to respond to Astargath. One of them said, "Regarding what?" I said, "Regarding what Astargath posted in the forum. They reluctantly ambled over to the computer, eyes glancing back at the TV. I pointed to where you said, "prove that all machines have makers." They looked at each other for a moment, and then laughed their heads off. I said, "Come on, guys. I don't want to embarrass him. He's serious." They roared until the apartment shook. I'll have to reply to you later. Laughter is catching, you know.

Well I think this is a big misunderstanding. Almost no one in science is actively trying to prove that God does not exist. The problem is that we know so much about the world already and have a very comprehensive theory of it and there is not God needed in these models. Which means even the God of the gaps can only be some god, quite different from what people think of, when they think of God.

That's not really proving it, just like you can't prove that all things have causes yet you still claim these things.

When I was a kid, and went to the high school - and even grade school - basketball games, I always became embarrassed when the opposing team was losing by a big margin.

You know? Maybe we should hang this up. I'm becoming embarrassed for you

 

Hello shitposter.  You are doing god's work! 

I've not really come accross such a thing but i think there's

The onus is on you to prove your fable exists.

Science says it doesn't.





400 pages and nothing yet...  :/

Prove it, prove that all machines have makers.

Your point is well taken. BB doesn't even deserve to have a theory, since its theory was caused by people.

Machines have makers.

How does the big bang theory show that everything has a cause? Nowhere in the big bang theory is stated that everything has a cause.

'' the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed'' The greatness of complexity? By comparing it with simplicity it's designed? You are not making sense badecker.

This is good, that people realize for one reason or another, that God exists.

Scientifically minded people have simply attempted to prove that God doesn't exist, through science. Often they don't realize that their science doesn't go far enough. That's why they think science has proven that God doesn't exist.

Keep up the good work, and remain in your faith. But if you can, please find some science that shows scientifically that God exists.

there, you talk about god, I say god exists, and that is to my knowledge.

Oh come on! Now that we know that God exists because of:

- big bang theory shows that everything has a cause, but isn't complete enough to show that BB even exists, and

- entropy shows that there was a beginning, because there wouldn't be any complexity left if entropy had always existed, and

- the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed

Isn't anybody going to refute the fact that God exists... refute it scientifically, that is?