Pages:
Author

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 20. (Read 6998 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
March 13, 2022, 09:09:06 AM
#7
Do you have estimation how much those materials and tools costs?

As Per Your request:

Cost Estimate for the complete setup:



Washers+Screw+ BoltEUR  3.00 (Sold By Weight)
BlockMit Jigfree
n0nce JigEUR 30.00
SledgehammerEUR 12.99
AnvilEUR 9.90
StampsEUR 28.79
Safety Labels 100xEUR  12.99
ContainerEUR  15.27
GlovesEUR  2.50
Duct TapeEUR 03.99
Microfiber Cloth EUR 01.00
Hot Glue GunEUR 09.50
Circle StickersEUR 00.90
Indelible MarkerEUR 8.13
GRAND TOTAL EUR 138.96

Well, this is actually more than I had expected.
It's true that a lot of materials are already in most houses, and a lot of materials could be replaced with cheaper ones, but I wanted to account everything (double jig included).
Also, buying a crypto steel, probably, you should also account an hammer or somewhere to punch letters...

Ah, luckily I hadn't necessity to use scissors, so they are in the picture, but I haven't used them.



hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
March 13, 2022, 08:04:50 AM
#6
If I wouldn't have read this is a phone number, I may have never guessed it. Adding a +country might help (but there's probably no "+" in the stamp set), or otherwise at least add the full word: "PHONE" or "PHONE NUMBER" (at the back).
You could use the I key twice (rotate stamp by 90 degrees).
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
March 13, 2022, 07:25:27 AM
#5

Telephone number printed on both sides of the washer, perhaps it would be better to add the country code!
If I wouldn't have read this is a phone number, I may have never guessed it. Adding a +country might help (but there's probably no "+" in the stamp set), or otherwise at least add the full word: "PHONE" or "PHONE NUMBER" (at the back).

If the phone number is intended to help out someone who doesn't know crypto, it might also be beneficial to add some washers with the name of the coins you (intend to) store using this seed phrase. That is of course annoying if you want to add another coin later, but it might save someone from having to search through hundreds of altcoins that could possibly be stored with that seed.

Quote
At this point, the block is ready to be sealed with hot glue on both ends
In my experience, hot glue sticks much better if you heat up the metal before applying the glue.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 1873
Crypto Swap Exchange
March 13, 2022, 07:18:20 AM
#4
Is it not better for this topic to sit in the Beginners & Help section of the forum?  The method of backing up a seed is crucial for any Bitcoin holder.  The more members see this, the more educated they HOPEFULLY are.

I have been having a lot of fun on my own creating seeds particularly to experiment with a specific method of backup and try destroying them later on.  Now, does anyone have any idea how to dispose of these washers?  Paper wallet disposal is easy, but what about steel?  The only ways I can think of is throwing away one washer at a time during a long trip on the road and melting the steel, which is safer and maybe better for the environment.  The latter is unless someone finds my washers a thousand years from now and I unintentionally created an amazing piece of Internet and Cryptocurrency history.

But for overly paranoid ones like me, throwing away one washer at a time could definitely come with consequences.  If you are being spied on, there is a chance someone will follow you and pick up your disposed washers one by one, exactly the same way you threw them away.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
March 13, 2022, 07:00:40 AM
#3
Do you have estimation how much those materials and tools costs?
As I described in my thread, the jig costs less than 5€ in material and should be around 10€ to have it printed. I myself, had mallets aplenty and used a large hammer as stamping surface. I also had stamping letters, so I only had to buy the washers and screw for 4€ per backup in total.
The letters had cost me around 20 in the past, though I wouldn't count the cost of them since you have to buy them with any type of steel (plate) backup, where often the plate(s) alone with shipping cost $20+. Those don't require a jig, but you can also stamp washers without jig if you want an unattractive result. Tongue

FYI, you could save some time if you only write first 4 character of each word. Although i'm not sure it's applicable for seed/mnemonic on different language which have different specification.
I'm pretty sure that it's a requirement for any language's 'seed alphabet' that the words need to be uniquely identifiable by the first 4 letters.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
March 13, 2022, 06:43:00 AM
#2

Do you have estimation how much those materials and tools costs?

I am going to add a price tag for every item in that picture.
Prices may vary greatly, and it also depends on the kind of tools already available. My immediate guesstimate of all the material in the picture is in the region of 90 euros.

FYI, you could save some time if you only write first 4 character of each word. Although i'm not sure it's applicable for seed/mnemonic on different language which have different specification.

I strongly advice against local language of BIP39 word list. They are poorly supported and implemented.
Also I know words are uniquely identified by the first 4 words, but I think the time save is not comparable to the increased risk in case of data loss: what if I print only 4 words, and a strange accident damages 2 letters of every washer?so I deliberately decided to print all letters.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
March 12, 2022, 07:21:33 PM
#1

Introduction

Custody of the seed is a topic that has always been close to my heart. For the first time, Bitcoin is a system that puts the responsibility of their financial sovereignty on the users' hands. This feature involves a complex balance of opportunities but also risks, given the intrinsic bearer nature of Bitcoin. The ownership of a bitcoin belongs to the person who can digitally sign a transaction with the corresponding private key—no other subject. Person, institution, or bot, whoever controls the private key, controls the bitcoins.
That means that the custody of bitcoin is of fundamental importance regarding the actual possibility of signing transactions and the possibility of adverse events, present or future, of a personal, social, or technological nature that every bitcoiner may encounter within a few years.
Technological, personal, and legal threats must be assessed when considering which storage option to select:



For a comprehensive guide on how to choose the way to backup your seed phrase, you can resort to this new article, again from Jameson:

How to Backup a Seed Phrase

Of course, the important thing is that Bitcoin enables the self-custody options ruled out in traditional finance. It is a unique feature that empowers bitcoiners in various adverse scenarios that will be, sadly, more and more common in a few years.
The problem is that self-custody is complex, and the amount of lost bitcoins is a warning for everyone who wants to go down this road: challenges take the most different shapes.
I have been researching this topic for a few years, and one of the first articles to spark my curiosity was:

Gifting satoshis to future generations


Quote
Recently, I've been tasked to gift some satoshis to a newborn baby, who is supposed to redeem them when he grows up, about 18 years from now. The challenge was trickier than initially expected, as there are many different ways to store bitcoin, each one with different trade-offs. At the same time, it's hard to predict the state of the Bitcoin industry two decades into the future.

Reading this article, I realised that the custody of a private key through a physical wallet had a few undoubted advantages:

  • independence from the technological development in terms of wallets/IT supports
  • security concerning the decay of the physical support
  • ease of use by the recipient of my gift.


Browsing the internet, I then found a page on Jameson Lopp’s website, a famous Cypherpunk and security expert, where he tested various Metal Seed Storage:

Metal Bitcoin Seed Storage Stress Test

In the first round of testing, one, in particular, caught my attention, as it was the first implementation of the idea of ​​printing the seed on washers by SAFU Ninja:
 
SAFU Ninja Review

The brilliant idea is described in the blog:

Cheap and Easy DIY Metal Bitcoin Seed Storage – Safu Ninja



The innovation is setting up the storage using pieces easily found in a typical hardware store to print the seed.

The most critical part of the work was stamping the letters on the washers, which turned out to be quite a long, tiring process, yielding not always perfect results when done freehand.
Therefore, a few tinkerers have developed a jig suitable for facilitating the correct orientation, separation, and correct printing of the letters.
The most famous jig is from Cryptocloacks.


This jig can accurately print the letters with correct spacing and positioning.

The n0nce jig is also available on bitcointalk.org.

n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig



The advantage of this jig is twofold: first of all, the project is modular. Therefore, it is adaptable to different sizes regarding the washers (the project was born precisely to print on more large size washers) and, above all, adapt to the various dimensions of the punches.
Secondly, n0nce created an improved design of the Blockmit jig, strengthening it in several parts and taking care of the invention with smaller tolerances to reduce the mechanical play between the components.

I will use the n0nce jig in the rest of the guide, but the operation is the same. Finally, in the appendix, we will analyse the differences between the two projects in detail.

As correctly pointed out by Federico Tenga, the BIP39 standard presents "risks of obsolescence" and, above all, risks due to the derivation path used. For this reason, he, in his test, used the WIF format.
Tough I understand perfectly and share his concerns, I decided to use the more usual BIP39 format instead of this project's first iteration. I believe that it presents a better risk/benefit balance on the practical possibility of recovery by the message recipient. Nothing prevents you from hacking the key in that format on the washers: it is a string of 51 characters so you would need only seven washers.

On the internet, the first to have described the whole process was econoalchemist:

Securing a Bitcoin seed phrase in stainless-steel washers (abridged)

What can I say? He is an über cool bloke. A complete test with a blowtorch! I don't aspire to that much, and I'll be content to print the washers' resistance to fire corrosion and pressure that I could potentially do. I am afraid it wouldn't differ significantly from the tests made by econoalchemist and Lopp.

[TOP]


Shopping List

As mentioned, the company's advantage is to use readily available pieces. This choice certainly helps to have some degree of security by obscurity, as no one will ever really know what you are doing. Indeed, as directly suggested in Safu's guide, if you have something suitable at home, use that, don't even buy it. If you know someone who already owns those punches, borrow them by saying you have to print keys rather than buying them (never mention bitcoin, of course).


So take these models as suggestions:

Washers
Washers with an outside diameter of 24 mm, inside diameter of 8 mm, and stainless steel are sufficient. They are found in any hardware store. Twenty-four washers are required for the key and four washers for the additional safety devices. Equip yourself with many extra washers to cope with trials and inevitable errors.


 
I recommend that they are made of stainless steel. The most corrosion-resistant steels are 304 and 321.

Bolt
We need a 60 mm bolt with a nut, a diameter of 8 mm (the most astute will have noticed that the diameter is the same as that of the washers!).



Also, in this case, the material to choose is stainless steel.

Sledgehammer
You need a sledgehammer. A hammer is not enough since the weight must impart enough force to stamp the washer correctly. Again, nothing too sophisticated.



Anvil
Who would have thought that your passion for Bitcoin would lead you to buy an anvil!
Given the strength needed to print the washers correctly, you will need sturdy support that won't get damaged by all the strokes. This small 1kg anvil, the smallest I have found, is the perfect fit for you.




Of course, bigger is better, but if you want to save these euros, you can use the smooth side of another club or a metal base. The important thing is that it is a sufficiently large surface to guarantee good stability of the jig and the force applied by the club—a matter of preference. However, I must say that I found this mini anvil very comfortable and suitable for work.

Stamps
Regarding the stamps set, I have chosen the following 6 mm punch set: it is a set of 36 characters, all letters, digits, and the “&” character. The quality is good, and the dimensioning of the punches is adequate. I found no defects during use, and the print quality did not deteriorate during the whole process.



Safety labels
These are adhesive labels that, once attached, break, leaving a mark on the surface.



To close the container, you will need safety labels that leave a trace when opened. They must be individually numbered to print the serial number inside the washers.

Hermetic container
We want to insert the seed in an airtight container for an aesthetic factor and verify its integrity. I found this in a lovely bitcoin orange. Among other things, the internal diameter is 25 mm, therefore ideally suited to accommodate our washers. If you decide to buy a different one, make sure that the diameter and length of the space available inside are sufficient to accommodate your seed.




At this point, the setup is almost complete.
Below is an overview of all the necessary materials.




Other miscellaneous material
  • A pair of gloves.
  • Hot glue gun and stick. To seal the washers.
  • Circular labels for security seals.
  • The private key in BIP39 format.
  • Indelible marker.


The following is an indicative recap of all possible costs (time excluded):

Washers+Bolt+NutEUR  3.00 (Sold By Weight)
Blockmit Jigfree
n0nce JigEUR 30.00
SledgehammerEUR 12.99
AnvilEUR 9.90
StampsEUR 28.79
Safety Labels 100xEUR  12.99
ContainerEUR  15.27
GlovesEUR  2.50
Duct TapeEUR 03.99
Microfiber Cloth EUR 01.00
Hot Glue GunEUR 09.50
Circle StickersEUR 00.90
Indelible MarkerEUR 8.13
GRAND TOTAL EUR 138.96

[TOP]


Stamping Verifying and Sealing the Seed


The procedure is straightforward. Insert the washer into the jig, covering the bottom of the jig with some duct tape. Using that tape immobilises the washer inside the support to not stop after each hammering.
In this way, you will avoid the letters being printed at different distances, but if you are not satisfied with how the letter is printed, you can try to reprint it, completely overlapping the signs. This is the main advantage of using a jig: doing everything freehand, it is easy for a letter to be poorly printed if the punch is hit in a non-optimal manner; with a jig instead, the printing process is rock solid, and if done correctly every letter is printed steadily and firmly into metal. Nevertheless, with a jig, the operation is straightforward and is well represented by the following gif:



The two upper notches are used to identify the correct order of the words, while the eight lower notches are used to print the terms. In the BIP39 standard, words have a maximum length of 8 letters, and the first four letters are sufficient to identify them uniquely. You won't have to worry about data loss if one or two letters aren't perfectly legible.

Place the jig on the anvil and deal a blow.
Proceed like this for all the letters and all the words.

One video, or rather two videos, are worth more than 100 words:

Outdoor workstation. Note the discarded washers in the foreground.
Pages:
Jump to:
© 2020, Bitcointalksearch.org