Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 13.

hymperion

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I'm back, sorry for the wait.

meanwhile I put 1 washer in normal water and 1 in h2so4 at 38%

the acid reacts with the zinc. let's see what happens in the long run.

instead for the test of several attached washers exposed to the flame here are the results.

I wrenched the nuts as tight as I could.

was in direct exposure for more than 5 min.

after letting them cool I unscrewed the nuts and some washers were attached, probably the impurities melt and cause this but it was enough to slam them on the counter to make them split. The incisions would not have been damaged under any circumstances.

fillippone

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Quote from: m2017 on November 26, 2022, 07:40:53 AM

The best place to hide something is the most visible place. Turn on fantasy and store seed phrases in the place where they will least search. Like in that movie, when the diamonds lay at the bottom of the aquarium among the pebbles and the glass.

if you want to hide them in plain sight, why not paint your words on a big painting and hang them on the wall:

prompt:

Quote

a matisse painting with the words "base","deer", "image", "close","depart", "bargain", "invite" ,"celery","brick","gap","able","caught"

m2017

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 26, 2022, 03:24:04 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 25, 2022, 03:17:40 PM

safe = attention getter

Here's another idea: let them waste time on your safe, and hide your seed words elsewhere

You can also put 2-3 seed phrases in the safe so that the attackers lose more time. Preferably, consisting of 24 words. In this case, every minute is precious and time works against them. If they check seed phrases on the spot, then the likelihood that someone will frighten (neighbors or residents) them increases, which means that the attackers will leave with empty wallets.

The safe can be used as a distraction and for storing small change (seed phrases with access to the minimum amount).

The best place to hide something is the most visible place. Turn on fantasy and store seed phrases in the place where they will least search. Like in that movie, when the diamonds lay at the bottom of the aquarium among the pebbles and the glass.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 26, 2022, 03:24:04 AM

I see no problems there: close the curtains, get the power tools. Give me 30 minutes, and another 30 minutes to securely verify the seed words before funding the wallet.

I do DIY all the time. All my neighbors would hear is a bit of banging and drilling (just like when I host a Foxpup party). I could easily just be putting up some shelves or building some new piece of furniture. No one is going to suspect someone is engraving a seed phrase every time they hear a bit of building working going on.

Quote from: LoyceV on November 26, 2022, 03:24:04 AM

I don't need seed words to be readily available.

I have some wallets which I haven't accessed a seed phrase back up once since I set them up many years ago, other than to check the integrity of my back ups. But if the words are engraved in a safe and bolted to my wall/floor, then I can be certain the integrity is just fine unless my home has been destroyed.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 24, 2022, 04:28:18 PM

Didn't you watch all the movies where thieves steal the safe deposit boxes because they can't open them quickly enough, than they could bring it home and examine it from all sides?

That's why I said "the key is there", so it's obvious there's no value in it.

Quote from: Welsh on November 24, 2022, 07:34:35 PM

I think most homes have safes, right?

Not where I'm living.

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 25, 2022, 03:17:40 PM

safe = attention getter

Here's another idea: let them waste time on your safe, and hide your seed words elsewhere

Quote from: fillippone on November 25, 2022, 05:53:31 PM

Engraving a list of 12 words on the back of a safe without no one around, and mounting that 30Kg box without anyone noticing the word list on the back of the safe, could be a tricky task, to say the list.

I see no problems there: close the curtains, get the power tools. Give me 30 minutes, and another 30 minutes to securely verify the seed words before funding the wallet.

Quote

Same thing for the recovery of the seed.

Like I said, that's intentional

I don't need seed words to be readily available.

fillippone

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 24, 2022, 02:10:12 PM

Quote from: n0nce on November 24, 2022, 01:59:23 PM

A physical safe is generally a good idea, too, especially when not using passphrases.

Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box.

Engraving a list of 12 words on the back of a safe without no one around, and mounting that 30Kg box without anyone noticing the word list on the back of the safe, could be a tricky task, to say the list.

Same thing for the recovery of the seed.

philipma1957

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 24, 2022, 02:10:12 PM

Quote from: n0nce on November 24, 2022, 01:59:23 PM

A physical safe is generally a good idea, too, especially when not using passphrases.

Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box.

Take it from me

safe = attention getter

Welsh

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 25, 2022, 01:43:48 PM

I don't think that's the case anymore since most people are living in tall buildings and flats, and I doubt each apartment has a safe.
People are still hiding their valuable things but they are mostly using hidden compartments or in walls, and some of them still trust the banks Tongue

I honestly don't know many people who publicly say they own safe deposits in their homes and I never saw it myself, but nobody is going to brag in public about that obviously.
Getting back to steel washers, most people do own some basic home tools and steel washers, so nobody would be interested in them very much Wink

Fair enough, maybe it's a cultural thing or location dependant or even a generational thing. I know quite a lot of older people who are totally against banks, and have cash stowed away. They were self custodial-ing before it was cool to do so.

A lot of the olders houses around the UK have built in safes, and they're big bastards. You aren't getting it out without a bit of a struggle, and a lot of noise. Times are changing those, we're moving to the digital money age, and therefore houses don't come with them any more. Honestly, I don't think these new timber framed houses could hold a safe of that weight up anyway.

Yeah, steel washers with your seed could potentially even be left out in a tool box (although probably shouldn't be stored with expensive tools). Since, not many people are going to think twice about that. Not my particular choice of method, but I could see the reasoning behind it. Basically, anyone breaking into your house is looking for electronics, jewellery, and likely a safe of some kind. Since people are creatures of habit, they tend to store these safes in the same places too.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Welsh on November 24, 2022, 07:34:35 PM

I think most homes have safes, right? Some houses used to come built with them in, and they were massive ones. You probably aren't going to be hauling that around, not far anyway. Most people put the deeds on their houses, and various other stuff in it. Unfortunately, they usually keep the key in the house, which obviously presents its own problems.

I don't think that's the case anymore since most people are living in tall buildings and flats, and I doubt each apartment has a safe.
People are still hiding their valuable things but they are mostly using hidden compartments or in walls, and some of them still trust the banks Tongue

I honestly don't know many people who publicly say they own safe deposits in their homes and I never saw it myself, but nobody is going to brag in public about that obviously.
Getting back to steel washers, most people do own some basic home tools and steel washers, so nobody would be interested in them very much Wink

Welsh

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 24, 2022, 04:28:18 PM

Didn't you watch all the movies where thieves steal the safe deposit boxes because they can't open them quickly enough, than they could bring it home and examine it from all sides?
If you have safe deposit at home it's obvious that you have something valuable to hide.

They're usually dumped not far from where the crime was committed, so you could potentially retrieve it again. That's if they didn't see the seed that is. However, I'd agree smash, and grab is far more likely than them taking the time or tools to get into a safe on site. Since, it either takes too long or makes a lot of noise.

I think most homes have safes, right? Some houses used to come built with them in, and they were massive ones. You probably aren't going to be hauling that around, not far anyway. Most people put the deeds on their houses, and various other stuff in it. Unfortunately, they usually keep the key in the house, which obviously presents its own problems.

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 24, 2022, 02:10:12 PM

Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box.

Than you don't need your laptop, you can use your National Supercomputer Snellius for managing Bitcoin and Electrum wallet, nobody is going to steal that Tongue

Quote from: LoyceMobile on November 24, 2022, 02:19:53 PM

It's a feature, not a bug. Who's going to steal a safe if the key is there and there's nothing of value in there?

Maybe not inside, but it's outside the box.
Someone who knows what you did (last summer) hammering that seed words on that steal box, could leak the information and someone could actually steal what is valuable.
Didn't you watch all the movies where thieves steal the safe deposit boxes because they can't open them quickly enough, than they could bring it home and examine it from all sides?
If you have safe deposit at home it's obvious that you have something valuable to hide.

Caught On Video: Burglars Steal Safe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6i06D5p7D4

LoyceMobile

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LoyceV on the road. Or couch.

Quote from: n0nce on November 24, 2022, 02:11:30 PM

Less convenient to work with / take out / move places

It's a feature, not a bug. Who's going to steal a safe if the key is there and there's nothing of value in there?

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: LoyceV on November 24, 2022, 02:10:12 PM

Quote from: n0nce on November 24, 2022, 01:59:23 PM

A physical safe is generally a good idea, too, especially when not using passphrases.

Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box.

Less convenient to work with / take out / move places, I guess, but yeah, you're not wrong. Cheesy

LoyceV

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Quote from: n0nce on November 24, 2022, 01:59:23 PM

A physical safe is generally a good idea, too, especially when not using passphrases.

Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: m2017 on November 24, 2022, 09:25:31 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 23, 2022, 11:32:05 PM

~snip

Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. Grin

I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice.

House fires actually get surprisingly hot; I was impressed myself when I first read about them.

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 24, 2022, 10:14:14 AM

I think it would do 575f for two hours.

Apparently, the ignition temperature of paper is around 500°F; however a house fire can go over 1500°F, so you'd need a bit more heat to test whether the temperature within all those layers can be kept below 500°, with an outside temperature of 1500°.

philipma1957

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Quote from: m2017 on November 24, 2022, 09:25:31 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 23, 2022, 11:32:05 PM

~snip

Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. Grin

I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice. By themselves, washers can withstand a fairly high temperature, and in standard cases this should be enough. Well, for those who have high risks of contact with fire, then you should think about the use of refractory materials. For example, those that can be bought at a hardware store. Or store in that part of the house (or other buildings) where these materials were used during construction.

I am tempted to test this with paper in my oven.

My oven goes to 575f

I have all the bentos.
I have the kevlar
I have the fire proof bags
I have the fire blanket.

I think the small bento and the small fireproof bag should be good enough.

But I would go
1)paper sheet.
2) fire leak proof bag
3) wrap with kevlar
4) small bento

I think it would do 575f for two hours.

m2017

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Quote from: philipma1957 on November 23, 2022, 11:32:05 PM

~snip

Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. Grin

I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice. By themselves, washers can withstand a fairly high temperature, and in standard cases this should be enough. Well, for those who have high risks of contact with fire, then you should think about the use of refractory materials. For example, those that can be bought at a hardware store. Or store in that part of the house (or other buildings) where these materials were used during construction.

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

how about stainless steel bento box

and heat bags.

outer bento box

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091Y6MNQZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?

inner bento

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJJX3VZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?

small fire proof

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085BL9XW2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?

large fire proof

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074S2H4H9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?

so (washers) in (small fire proof) in (small bento) in ( large fire proof) in ( large bento )

I would think this would withstand 1000f in an oven for quite a long time

but that the fire proof bags could melt

I also would say

washers wrap in kevlar cloth drop in small bento wrap in kevlar cloth in large bento

might work well .

I have a few yards of kevlar and a kevlar scissors.

it rates to 800 f

https://www.armorco.com/online-store/Kevlar-Fabrics-c23597470

is my supplier for kevlar.

this fire blanket is also good.

https://www.amazon.com/Fiberglass-Emergency-Suppression-Retardant-Fireplace/dp/B09H2H2KSF/ref=sr_1_7?

1022f. good price

fillippone

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 23, 2022, 05:00:00 PM

https://blog.lopp.net/tag/cold-storage/
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

I think I made a lot of references to Jameson Loop's articles in the OP and I even linked the guide to Bitcoin Storage.
So I think the moral tribute to JL is pretty clear on this thread!

Welsh

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Have you by chance tested storage options for the washers? I'm taking a look at the options out there, and while they all claim to be a certain grade of steel or whatever, I can't really verify their claims by looks alone. That's just sort of trusting their claims, without actually knowing its a certain grade. Seems to be something that would be easily said, and gotten away with too. Since, I suspect most people don't test the claims.

I might have to purchase a few, and test them out myself. I do like the compactness of the suggestions in the original post though. I'd just be concerned about if it were to melt, even if you put a spacer in between, is the melted metal going to get past that if it doesn't fit absolutely perfectly. I guess gravity acts as a seal somewhat between the washers with the seed on it.

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 13. (Read 7156 times)