A physical safe is generally a good idea, too, especially when not using passphrases.
Hammer the words into the back of the safe, then mount it to the wall. You don't need washers if you have a 30 kg steel box. 
Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 13. (Read 6990 times)
~snip
Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. 
I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice.I think it would do 575f for two hours.
Apparently, the ignition temperature of paper is around 500°F; however a house fire can go over 1500°F, so you'd need a bit more heat to test whether the temperature within all those layers can be kept below 500°, with an outside temperature of 1500°. 
~snip
Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice. By themselves, washers can withstand a fairly high temperature, and in standard cases this should be enough. Well, for those who have high risks of contact with fire, then you should think about the use of refractory materials. For example, those that can be bought at a hardware store. Or store in that part of the house (or other buildings) where these materials were used during construction. I am tempted to test this with paper in my oven.
My oven goes to 575f
I have all the bentos.
I have the kevlar
I have the fire proof bags
I have the fire blanket.
I think the small bento and the small fireproof bag should be good enough.
But I would go
1)paper sheet.
2) fire leak proof bag
3) wrap with kevlar
4) small bento
I think it would do 575f for two hours.
~snip
Looks like you're planning to store washers at the foot of an erupting volcano. I don't think most people will need that many layers of protection, although I admit that in some parts of the world it would make sense to take your advice. By themselves, washers can withstand a fairly high temperature, and in standard cases this should be enough. Well, for those who have high risks of contact with fire, then you should think about the use of refractory materials. For example, those that can be bought at a hardware store. Or store in that part of the house (or other buildings) where these materials were used during construction.
how about stainless steel bento box
and heat bags.
outer bento box
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091Y6MNQZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
inner bento
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJJX3VZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
small fire proof
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085BL9XW2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
large fire proof
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074S2H4H9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
so (washers) in (small fire proof) in (small bento) in ( large fire proof) in ( large bento )
I would think this would withstand 1000f in an oven for quite a long time
but that the fire proof bags could melt
I also would say
washers wrap in kevlar cloth drop in small bento wrap in kevlar cloth in large bento
might work well .
I have a few yards of kevlar and a kevlar scissors.
it rates to 800 f
https://www.armorco.com/online-store/Kevlar-Fabrics-c23597470
is my supplier for kevlar.
this fire blanket is also good.
https://www.amazon.com/Fiberglass-Emergency-Suppression-Retardant-Fireplace/dp/B09H2H2KSF/ref=sr_1_7?
1022f. good price
and heat bags.
outer bento box
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B091Y6MNQZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
inner bento
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CJJX3VZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
small fire proof
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085BL9XW2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
large fire proof
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074S2H4H9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?
so (washers) in (small fire proof) in (small bento) in ( large fire proof) in ( large bento )
I would think this would withstand 1000f in an oven for quite a long time
but that the fire proof bags could melt
I also would say
washers wrap in kevlar cloth drop in small bento wrap in kevlar cloth in large bento
might work well .
I have a few yards of kevlar and a kevlar scissors.
it rates to 800 f
https://www.armorco.com/online-store/Kevlar-Fabrics-c23597470
is my supplier for kevlar.
this fire blanket is also good.
https://www.amazon.com/Fiberglass-Emergency-Suppression-Retardant-Fireplace/dp/B09H2H2KSF/ref=sr_1_7?
1022f. good price
I think I made a lot of references to Jameson Loop's articles in the OP and I even linked the guide to Bitcoin Storage.
So I think the moral tribute to JL is pretty clear on this thread!
Have you by chance tested storage options for the washers? I'm taking a look at the options out there, and while they all claim to be a certain grade of steel or whatever, I can't really verify their claims by looks alone. That's just sort of trusting their claims, without actually knowing its a certain grade. Seems to be something that would be easily said, and gotten away with too. Since, I suspect most people don't test the claims.
I might have to purchase a few, and test them out myself. I do like the compactness of the suggestions in the original post though. I'd just be concerned about if it were to melt, even if you put a spacer in between, is the melted metal going to get past that if it doesn't fit absolutely perfectly. I guess gravity acts as a seal somewhat between the washers with the seed on it.
I might have to purchase a few, and test them out myself. I do like the compactness of the suggestions in the original post though. I'd just be concerned about if it were to melt, even if you put a spacer in between, is the melted metal going to get past that if it doesn't fit absolutely perfectly. I guess gravity acts as a seal somewhat between the washers with the seed on it.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.
Nice work testing steel washers!You could become European and Italian version of Jameson Lopp
If you don't know he tested and tortured many metallic seed cold storage backups and he wrote extensive reviews.
Maybe you can get some ideas for future testing by reading his reviews:
https://blog.lopp.net/tag/cold-storage/
https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/
exactly, a very important caution is not to expose the first word, you have to put another additional washer ahead so if the container were to melt due to a fire it would not stick to the engraving of the seed word.
I like where there are diverse talent on the forum! Who would have guessed you need chemistry notion to master bitcoin? As much as cryptography was easy, then you risk your hand securing your result of elliptic curve scalar multiplication!
I'm not sure it's needed. We're just nerd at heart 
, and therefore must overcompensate on everything when it comes to security. As you said previously, it's highly unlikely you get acid anywhere near these things, and if you did you'd probably have to question your security in the first place, and why you stored it close to potentially hazardous material. I do think though, any tests being carried out should be done as you intend to store them. That way you get a more accurate test. As was said above, storing them together then heating them up. Same as the acid should probably be tested with them stored how you're actually going to store them, as there could be something unpredictable in the way you're storing them.
I actually think the Hermetic container would probably be the weak point. Since, there's plenty for sale, but having one that is to the same grade as your washers is vital.
Thanks so much for the advice and concern.
I should already have a tank of acid diluted 40% with water.
I should already have a tank of acid diluted 40% with water.
I like where there are diverse talent on the forum! Who would have guessed you need chemistry notion to master bitcoin? As much as cryptography was easy, then you risk your hand securing your result of elliptic curve scalar multiplication!
okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.
Be careful! Mixing water and sulfuric acid is exothermic enough that it can make the water boil. And since water is less dense than sulfuric acid, any boiling happens on the surface of your container and so the reaction is prone to spit and splash acid all over the place.Instead add the sulfuric acid slowly to a container of water, so the sulfuric acid will sink through the water and the larger quantity of water will dissipate the heat without boiling.
Edit: Beaten by Marcel by 2 minutes!
okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.
Be very careful there! I don't know how you get pure H2SO4 in your house, but adding water releases a lot of energy > heat > splashing.
okay then I'll dilute it with water and see what happens.
Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.
Great work man and it's really nice to see members testing the extreme conditions that these washers can survive because we are talking about engraving our seed phrases over them.But yes the acid test would be giving more specific results and does it have any effect over it or not so will be good if you publish the results.If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.
I think steel is corrosive to diluted nitric acid with water but yes you can try it with diluted H2SO4 to see if there is any effect that can cause damage to the engraved seed over them or not.
Are you using acid diluted with water?
I'm not using it myself, but that's what I mean. I'd like to see the same test, but with multiple washers tightened together by a bolt. Can you still separate them after they've been red hot and cooled down?
What exactly did you use? Pure H2SO4 isn't very corrosive to steel, try diluted H2SO4
the temperature is not such as to cause a fusion and make them stick but I can also do this test without problems.
Are you using acid diluted with water?
DURING THE TORTURE: I held the flame for more than 1 minute, I believe it was around 700°at the time the picture was taken, if not more, judging by the colour.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.
What exactly did you use? Pure H2SO4 isn't very corrosive to steel, try diluted H2SO4
it will be done
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