Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 16. (Read 5896 times)

Sorry, I meant creating the tool with a laser cutter. A small 30W laser cutter should be available for around $200, so it might even be cheaper than buying a 3D printer. But of course you can only do plywood cutting and cardboard with those weak diode lasers. In a pinch though, it would allow you to make a few disks and glue them together. In fact, even the original 'full stamp' design should be laser-cuttable in multiple layers with minor modifications.

As you mentioned, this would still circumvent the issue of not wanting to have the seed phrase in any sort of encoding on any sort of electronic device.

I can think of great ways to store seed phrases in steel plates with laser cutting, but I wouldn't assume it's cheap.
Example:


I could also think of a very nice storage design if you happen to have a CNC cutting machine. But even if you have access to very cool hardware, it brings the problem of wiping it's memory. That makes a pen or letter punch is much safer by default.

Wow, good job! I really like this idea.

I was about to say: One layer will be suboptimal, because (you'll notice this when you try with real stamps), you tend not to hold the letter perfectly straight without a jig, resulting in letters being deeper at the top than at the bottom for instance.
I've got an example picture here, and it's even harder with larger letters:

However, if you were to cut out like 10 of those disks and glue them together, it might hold the stamp straight enough (or help you hold it straight, since the cardboard would be easier to bend by hammering than bending the plastic).

In general it has to be tried out if there are any forces that apply to the jig which can't be taken up by cardboard, but if alignment is enough, it should work well, honestly!

Another option that is cheap and quick to manufacture (if you have the tool) is laser-cutting. Multiple layers of plywood glued together should work really well. And would give the lateral stability that I don't yet fully trust in when using cardboard.

I'm already heavily invested in the washer market! All these posts I'm writing are pure market manipulation.

The main difference I believe, is that re-stamping is hard without notches. I had to do it since my material was quite hard, the table I used was quite soft (absorbed a lot of the impact), and my letters are pretty large - so imprints weren't always deep enough for my taste.

So out of the 3 benefits of my jig, with more cardboard disks this should check all boxes but one (3):
1) Equal letter spacing (looks nicer)
2) Holding the stamp straight, giving a uniform letter (readability)
3) 'Re-stampability' (readability)

After reading this thread, I came up with the idea to simplify jig. Undoubtedly, n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig is convenient and useful, but there may be cases when there is no time to search or create jig. In this case, my downgrade (because the design is simplified as much as possible) can perform its function as a template for stuffing letters just as well.

Making. Minimalism at its finest.
1) Take the washer, apply it to the cardboard and trace it with a pencil along the outer and inner circles.

2)  After cut it out it will turn out something like this.

3) Apply the stamp with the back side (or something with the right size) and draw around the contour with a pencil. In 2 places. Choose an interval of your choice (this will allow to have equal spacing between letters). Cut out a hole in the shape of a stamp.

4) Glue small circles, large circles, and then large ones with small ones.


Usage. Even a child can handle it.
1) Insert stencil with a small circle into the hole in the washer. The picture is a rear view.

2) Put the stamp in a square cutout and beat with a hammer. We get a letter. (In my case, the letters are marked with a marker due to the lack of stamps).

3) Turn our template counterclockwise until the 1st embossed letter appears in the left square cutout. Align the position and again beat with a stamp in the 2nd empty field.

4) Repeat as many times as needed.

Nuances.
If there are difficulties with fixing the position of the stamp on the template, then you can use several layers of a large circle (gluing them) and / or using thicker cardboard (thin is easier to cut into shape).

Advantages.
Making from improvised materials, such as cardboard, glue, pencil, stationery knife and scissors. All this can be easily found in almost every home or bought at the nearest store for pennies.

Cheap. Fast. Easily. 100% anonymity (who would ever think to ask what these tools and materials are for?).

You can make a similar stencil on a 3D printer with variations to your choice.

In fact, my version is the inside of n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig.

I apologize for the quality of product, but I hope the idea was clear and useful to you are.

P.S. Sellers are surprised by the sudden demand and hype for washers. They say they are expected to be in short supply.

Perfect!
I bought my stamps on Amazon as my local hardware store didn’t sell any.
Regarding the total money spent, you are right. I bought all the possible item to show the “worst case”, but you were right spending the least possible amount of money!
Do not forget to let us know how you got your jig and of course take some picture of the whole process!

I have faith in people being stingy enough, that they'd rather use their own two hands attempting something, than spend their own hard earned cash. Nah, but in all seriousness, most of these items are common household items, and therefore the final cost is less than a hardware wallet. As suggested too, you don't even need to own these items, you could potentially borrow them, without actually revealing what you intend on using them for.

Also, while a hardwallet can only be used for Bitcoin, and potentially altcoins depending on the one you get. This method could be used for acting as a physical password manager. You could effectively use this for storing any sensitive data you want, as long as you keep them relatively safe from physical attacks. The convenience is lost of a password manager, but I could see some people preferring the physical approach.

Even if its not storing passwords, secret keys for physical security keys come to mind. Since, its not really recommended to digitally store those, but in case of damage or loss of the security key, a physical way of backing them up like this could benefit.

So, when you do compare hardware wallets to this method, the convenience definitely lies with hardware wallets, the security of each could be debatable depending on how its handled, but the potential diversity that this method offers definitely beats any hardware wallet, for typically less money, and a little bit of your time.

Very nice! Have fun stamping! The prices reflect roughly what I paid as well; $1 per backup means it's pretty cheap to introduce redundancy and / or multisig. Whereas buying 4, 5 'ultra special bitcoin seed plates' for $50 each would quickly get expensive. With this method, it'll be $5 instead.
Did you already print the jig / have it printed or do you intend not to use one? If there are any issues with the file please let me know.

I just bought the basic stuff needed from my local hardware store.  The cost was way lower than what fillippone has paid for their items.

Got the stamps for $20.  Definitely not the best quality, but they do their job.  12 washers + 1 bolt + 1 nut for less than $1.  Sledgehammer for $10, anvil for $10.  That is $45 for one seed and for every additional seed I increase the total by around $1.

I, for one, consider all the rest to be extra.  And in my case, I already had one sledgehammer, an anvil, some safety labels and gloves in my storage room.  That means my costs would have been $21 had I not wanted to buy an additional sledgehammer and a smaller anvil.  140 EUR seems very expensive.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Thank you for the responses, decided against encoding the passphrase. I'm not even decent with cryptography (sometimes I do "encrypt" texts with tools like cryptii) and considering my history with passwords, I might indeed be unable to decode it properly. Once I do get large enough funds I'd follow the steps in this thread, maybe cover it "starlite" as well.

First of all, amazing work on this thread fillippone. I can't even imagine how long that must have taken. Respect!

No offense to newbies, but most wouldn't be interested in securing their seed this way. We are still years away from people realizing the dangers of storing seeds in digital formats on your computer or cloud services. Some would probably not even understand what they are reading at all if they saw this thread.

Not necessarily. A good hardware wallet costs $100-200 these days. The fact that you have to spend a few hours to make it with your own two hands will put people off.

Initially I was thinking this is a bad idea but then I looked the content of euro coins ands they are made from at least 75% copper, and depending on banknote there are nickel and zinc in different percentage.
Now, copper has lower melting point than stainless steel but I still consider it a very good and cheap material alternative for bitcoin metal backup.
Note that some countries (with their own currencies) may be using different and lower percentage of copper in their banknotes.
Imagine one crazy thing... using silver coins instead of euro coins to increase value  

I am not following this account, but this is certainly trending in twitter for bitcoin related stuff

I have something similar on my wall, as a daily reminder for real value of fiat currency papers.
  

Lol, we all follow the same twitter accounts!



Maybe it's good idea to stock up on steel washers as I am expecting price of metal to go up more in future, and you can always use them in real life.


Please, I talking about bitcoin only. I don't store shitcoins.
Also, even if I do all correctly, they are going to be worth zero anyway by the time I want to move them out of cold storage.

My third post in the forum:




Abusing Fiat money is art: I have a 100 trillion Zimbabwean dollar banknote hanging on my wall, and I am seriously mulling the idea of hanging also a few US dollars.

Stamping euros is a nice idea, but I would stick to something more resistant, both tho high temperature and to mechanical stress.

 

Yeah, easily. It was 4€ a few months ago at least, for the huge (and thick) 30mm washers I used and stainless steel screw & nut. So it's already 'inflation-adjusted' if you wish. Of course this means it would have been possible to do this for probably 2-3 bucks a few years ago!

Thanks for looking up some numbers; your place seems cheaper than mine. Maybe different material. But yeah; the idea is that a pack of 100 washers for <5€ can give you backups for as little as a few bucks each (e.g. if you use washers double-sided). It's supposed to be a cheap alternative to those steel seed plates, however in this and the other discussion thread we saw it even has lots of advantages other than price.

I love this! Just the visualization of (ab)using one currency, reducing it to its material value to store another, much better currency, would really be a piece of art honestly!

You are pretty safe unless they are deliberately exposed to a furnace or similar. The melting point of stainless steel is well in excess of the temperatures reached in a house fire or similar.

There's no point storing them together, just as there is no point storing your passphrase alongside your seed phrase. But given that there are more possible derivation paths (by many orders of magnitude) than there are potential seed phrases, it could be used as a "surrogate" passphrase, so to speak, where an attacker would need to know your seed phrase and derivation path. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

Fun maybe, but a quick Wikipedia search tells me the alloys which make up these coins have a significantly lower melting point and tensile strength than stainless steel, so probably not recommended.

€3,17 per 100! Or €6,10 to go a bit bigger. Or €3,83 if you settle for thinner rings. Cheap stuff

Another thought: how fun would it be to use euro coins to stamp seed words into?

Oh nice, there is still hope for Etna special edition
Are you sure it's still 4€ in all places?
I heard $5 wrench attacked is now renamed to $10 wrench attack because of inflation and price increase
Maybe it's good idea to stock up on steel washers as I am expecting price of metal to go up more in future, and you can always use them in real life.
I talked many times before and importance of derivation path especially if you are using hardware wallets with BIP39, some of them are totally different by default.
If you only use Bitcoin there is less chance of having issues in future, but add any other shitcoin and you could be having a lot of issues.
Best thing would be to add name of the wallet (also important if you used Electrum for seed generation) on one of the top washer.

Adding a non standard derivation is adding a potential failure to the system.
So, I am stamping the correct derivation on a wahser: “1875626591“ to stick to your example.

What is the point of storing this strange derivation together with the seed? He who control the seed, controls the deviation also.

But what happens if the washer with the derivation get damaged? 4 numbers become unreadable, because there was a mechanical failure at the store. How are you going recover the funds?

So no increased security, but greater exposure to failures.

As I said, it’s like protecting an HW in a safe box with a PIN: counterproductive.

If you use a non-standard derivation path, it doesn't hurt to hammer it into another washer. Or hammer the wallet name + version.

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This makes me wonder if some people use a very high derivation path to avoid someone stealing their coins: if you use for instance m/44'/44'/1875626591'/0 and even if someone gets your seed words, I doubt they'll ever find your (shit)coins.

Today I saw a tweet from @Alex Bosworth.



Of course he’s referring to the derivation path.

How this could be addressed in our case?

The first solution would be of using the WIF standard, as suggested by Federico tenga in his article.


Another one it would be to use a common wallet to generate the seed, so that funds are stored in a well known derivation.

I didn’t explicitly mention derivation path as I didn’t want to mess up things. Maybe it’s better to state the obvious? “Don’t use any fancy wallet to generate the seed? I should include a derivation washers”? Might be unintelligible  by the person who should get the Satoshi?

This is exactly my understanding: I wanted to be crystal clear about all the costs, this is re reason why I put that section (apart of being asked this very question in the comments). I went for the "full package", but really, much of the things (even the container) are not necessary, ultimately.


Agree also on this.
Do not overcomplicate things. Keeping things as linear and simple as possibile is an intrinsic safety measure.

I heard horror stories of people putting HW Wallets (without backup) in a safe box in a bank, then losing the backup and now they forget the PIN. Nice way to lose millions in BTC. Why should you protect with a PIN an HW wallet in a safe box in a Bank? So you can add a layer of disaster!