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Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 14. (Read 6990 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
November 23, 2022, 07:20:46 AM
Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.

That would be a good addition I think.
Even if I really can’t figure out a scenario where your seed is flooded with sulphuric acid (while I can understand why it could be exposed to 700°).

But it would be interesting to know it there is any data loss after a few days in the acid.
sr. member
Activity: 574
Merit: 467
November 23, 2022, 07:07:47 AM
Hi all, glad my work has been appreciated.
If you want, I can also try a long-lasting acid test. the short contact only creates a removable scult, in the long run it should only favor rust but I can easily do this test and publish the results.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
November 22, 2022, 08:55:01 PM
My friend @hymperion from the Italian Board:
made a hard treatment to the washers without any apparent effect:

(courtesy translation by me, original post in Italian)

~
Awesome! Merits given.

The images are pretty self-explanatory.
Also the 'POS SCHIFO'? Tongue Really liked that easter-egg.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
November 22, 2022, 06:48:47 PM
My friend @hymperion from the Italian Board:
made a hard treatment to the washers without any apparent effect:

(courtesy translation by me, original post in Italian)

here we are, I would say the blowtorch test passed!

The washers I used are DIN 9021, galvanized steel, hardness 140 HV

WASHER BEFORE:





DURING THE TORTURE: I held the flame for more than 1 minute, I believe it was around 700°at the time the picture was taken,  if not more, judging by the colour.



AFTER THE TREATMENT: afterwards, I also hit the washer with a hammer, but I couldn't see any significant damage




The images are pretty self-explanatory.

He also mentioned using acid as H2SO4 on the washers without any major effect still.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1341
September 22, 2022, 03:46:49 AM

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates.

Well that might be true because the washer itself might be cheap in some countries but differ in prices in the location. This made me to do some research on the price difference and I came to see that the prices are not the in different sites. I thought because of the size of the washers or the quality.

 https://racetechtitanium.com/product-category/fasteners/titanium-fasteners/titanium-washers/


Even the sites n0nce provided, the prices are not the same. That means different companies sell it with different prices. Therefore, in some wholesales and retails sell differently. And also that can not be compared to a close place with a distance location and to interior Hamlets.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
September 21, 2022, 06:33:11 AM
While I want to congratulate fillippone for this incredible article and for all the (physical) work he did for being possible to write it, this topic reminded me of something and I wanted to post these thoughts for a while now, but I keep forgetting to do it...


Thanks for the kind words, but when I got this notification on my hairy wiriest, I really hoped you had finally published your contribution to this topic!
Less words, more facts!
 Wink
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 6524
Fully-fledged Merit Cycler|Spambuster'23|Pie Baker
September 21, 2022, 06:28:15 AM
While I want to congratulate fillippone for this incredible article and for all the (physical) work he did for being possible to write it, this topic reminded me of something and I wanted to post these thoughts for a while now, but I keep forgetting to do it...

Seeing fillippone's enthusiams (and also the ones' mentioned in OP), this reminded me of modders. Do you remember the modders? Those enthusiasts which started, many years ago, to modify PC cases, to make exotic cable management, add lights and so on...? Those which did physical work to cut the cases in various shapes as their imagination drove them...?

Well, no matter how well designed a case was, modders' "credo" was this: "why not modify it if we can?" -- this being, of course, in contradiction to PC cases designers, which would say "why would you change such a beautiful case, since it's just perfect?" Smiley

Similar to the two credos mentioned above, nowadays we have many types of wallets, each competing with the others for attracting as many users as possible. But still, there are some enthusiasts, such as fillippone, which are willing to try new ideas, ideas also involving physical work, same as modders do. And also, most likely, having same question in mind: "why not change it (n.b. the "old-school" method of storing coins inside a wallet) if we can?".

And, as you see, from this mindset beautiful ideas may arise, including to actually use an anvil (!!!) for storing BTC / private keys...



Thank you, @gazetabitcoin, for helping me sort out that monstrosity and making my posts even better.

Hihi, anytime! (Although I don't remember anymore what the monstrosity was Smiley)
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1296
Crypto Casino and Sportsbook
August 16, 2022, 01:51:33 PM
Titanium washers exist; not cheap, but not unviable.
I looked at your links and I will say yes, you are right, it is quite affordable (although I had the belief that it was too expensive), even with shipping included. If necessary, those who wish to obtain an ultra-reliable method of storing seed phrase can use titanium washers and it won't ruin them financially. Smiley

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Since you can do a 24-word backup on 12 washers, plus one to hide the first word when everything's screwed together, it will be between 20 and 40 bucks. Just in case anyone absolutely wants to do it for whatever reason.. Grin
Titanium washers will cost more than $20-40. And that's why:
https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ - in this link there are washers with an outer diameter of 15mm, which I consider very small and it will be problematic to put text on them. Also, the thickness of the washer seems to me too small - only 1mm. As a result, the dimensions and thickness of this particular sample will not allow you to write 2 words for each washer. With due skill and necessity, this is doable (despite the miniaturization of the text), but it is better to choose https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-washer-m12-28mm-od-form-c/ - washers with an outer diameter of 28mm and a thickness of 2.5mm at a price of 6.6£ each.

Let's calculate the costs:
12 words + 1 hiding the first word = 7 washers (if applied on 2 sides) = ~46£.
24 words + 1 hiding the first word = 13 washers (if applied on 2 sides) ~ 86£.
Multiply the price by 2 if only 1 word will be writed on each washer.

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.
Probably, after my preliminary calculations, it will no longer seem cheaper.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
August 16, 2022, 07:28:31 AM
Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.
OMG they exist already!  Cheesy
I am not sure why people would use titanium washers in real life, but maybe someone is using them in nuclear plants, or in places that need higher melting point.
For titanium it's around 1650 – 1670 °C (3000 – 3040 °F) and for stainless steel it's 1230 – 1530 °C (2250 – 2790 °F).
They are still cheaper than most stainless steel ready made products, but only thing I would be concerned if adding letters would be much harder, or if it's even possible to add them.

Titanium - The strongest metal on earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAR3allc7U
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
August 15, 2022, 06:27:44 PM
Maybe someone could send him regular stainless steel washers with random words for empty wallet, if he didn't test that already.
Problem is that not all washers are made equally, so it's important to note exact size and metal alloy.
He can simply state which alloy was used, in fact it's something he's already doing when speaking about plate-type seed backups:

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.
I don't know if anyone made titanium washers but they would be much more expensive.
Stainless steel washers are good enough, unless they are some cheap chinese alloy mix with aluminum.
Titanium washers exist; not cheap, but not unviable.

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Since you can do a 24-word backup on 12 washers, plus one to hide the first word when everything's screwed together, it will be between 20 and 40 bucks. Just in case anyone absolutely wants to do it for whatever reason.. Grin

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
August 15, 2022, 01:30:33 PM
So I guess he’s not done with testing rounds and reviews!
No he is not done yet, as long as people are making new stuff and sending him for stress testing.
Maybe someone could send him regular stainless steel washers with random words for empty wallet, if he didn't test that already.
Problem is that not all washers are made equally, so it's important to note exact size and metal alloy.

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.
I don't know if anyone made titanium washers but they would be much more expensive.
Stainless steel washers are good enough, unless they are some cheap chinese alloy mix with aluminum.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
August 14, 2022, 06:43:10 PM
A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

I had his KISS and privacy principles in mind when realising this guide.
Regarding 'A single solid piece of metal' as a requirement for a good seed backup; I am really curious about what he thinks about the washer backup technique, compared to the commercial solutions.
I know he tried it already, but it would have been great if that was included in this summary, as well.

As of right now, a seed phrase backup 'product' would really need to be something extraordinary to move me away from washers. It's just so simple, so private, so unconspicuous and I love how you can easily re-stamp words if you messed one up.

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
August 13, 2022, 09:32:38 PM
A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design
Nice reading material from JL as usual!
Did you know he is working on testing new set of metal seed backup plates/devices?
I think he received some of them from forum members that found about Jameson Lopp in this place Wink
He made post about stress testing new devices few weeks ago (Secret Seed, Coinplate, Cryptotag, etc.):
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/lopp/status/1555683927502819334


I guess that article is not an end to his backup solution reviews, but rather a “summary” of lessons learned so far.
This is useful to both users assessing the quality of their storage solution and Producers, trying new design ideas.

So I guess he’s not done with testing rounds and reviews!
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
August 13, 2022, 06:07:48 PM
A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design
Nice reading material from JL as usual!
Did you know he is working on testing new set of metal seed backup plates/devices?
I think he received some of them from forum members that found about Jameson Lopp in this place Wink
He made post about stress testing new devices few weeks ago (Secret Seed, Coinplate, Cryptotag, etc.):
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/lopp/status/1555683927502819334
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
August 13, 2022, 11:10:20 AM
A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

I had his KISS and privacy principles in mind when realising this guide.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
change the letters into binary
That defeats the purpose of using words, and makes mistakes much more likely again.

At that point a would suggest the WIF format.
This is a good compromise between human readability and the risk associated with the slightly different implementations of the BIP39 standard (I.e. Word lists, derivation paths etc.)
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
change the letters into binary
That defeats the purpose of using words, and makes mistakes much more likely again.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 3150
₿uy / $ell ..oeleo ;(
Just an idea here, if you change the letters into binary then instead of buying a whole set of stamping letter you need two old screwdrivers one Philips and one flat one and you are done, you need just a bigger washers.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
On the other hand, I just realized an issue with CNC cutting, which is that you'd need to find a way to mechanically fasten the washers in place without the drill bit interfering with your fastening method.
While using a CNC cutting machine anyway, just start with a metal plate. Engrave the words, then cut out washers Cheesy

Quote
By the way, I'm certain a better stamping surface will make it much easier, since the rather soft workbench I use with a piece of metal on it, simply absorbs a lot of force. By using a nice anvil like fillippone, most of your energy will go into the letter.
Definitely! You shouldn't stamp on wood, even just a heavy hammer under the washer will do.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 5834
not your keys, not your coins!
From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300
I think the KISS principle applies here: a seed storage doesn't have to look good, because you can't show it off and you won't hang it on the wall. It's literally meant for your eyes only, so if a hammer and letter stamps can do the job, I wouldn't use a CNC cutter.
Totally agree with the looks not being as important, but from my experience so far, it gets a little exhausting doing a few backups in a day.
On the other hand, I just realized an issue with CNC cutting, which is that you'd need to find a way to mechanically fasten the washers in place without the drill bit interfering with your fastening method. So I'd say 'scratch that idea'.. Wink

By the way, I'm certain a better stamping surface will make it much easier, since the rather soft workbench I use with a piece of metal on it, simply absorbs a lot of force. By using a nice anvil like fillippone, most of your energy will go into the letter.

And the cheaper (although that's probably what you meant). E-mark machine, of course, is a cool thing, or even a laser, but a hammer and a stamps will cost less.
Absolutely!

The idea is inspired from econoalchemist's blog post Securing a Bitcoin seed phrase in stainless-steel washers. and it's very great:
  • Materials cost under 5 bucks (€, $, £, it's always the same ballpark). I paid around 3€ for 32 washers and maybe 1€ for the screw and nut.
  • No shipping cost since everyone has a hardware store nearby.
  • Anonymous since nobody knows what you use basic metal hardware for.
  • All stainless steel, quite durable, on par with commercial Bitcoin backup products.
  • Greater thickness than some commercial products
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