Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 15.

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Quote from: n0nce on August 15, 2022, 05:27:44 PM

Titanium washers exist; not cheap, but not unviable.

I looked at your links and I will say yes, you are right, it is quite affordable (although I had the belief that it was too expensive), even with shipping included. If necessary, those who wish to obtain an ultra-reliable method of storing seed phrase can use titanium washers and it won't ruin them financially.

Quote from: n0nce on August 15, 2022, 05:27:44 PM

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Since you can do a 24-word backup on 12 washers, plus one to hide the first word when everything's screwed together, it will be between 20 and 40 bucks. Just in case anyone absolutely wants to do it for whatever reason.. Grin

Titanium washers will cost more than $20-40. And that's why:
https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ - in this link there are washers with an outer diameter of 15mm, which I consider very small and it will be problematic to put text on them. Also, the thickness of the washer seems to me too small - only 1mm. As a result, the dimensions and thickness of this particular sample will not allow you to write 2 words for each washer. With due skill and necessity, this is doable (despite the miniaturization of the text), but it is better to choose https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-washer-m12-28mm-od-form-c/ - washers with an outer diameter of 28mm and a thickness of 2.5mm at a price of 6.6£ each.

Let's calculate the costs:
12 words + 1 hiding the first word = 7 washers (if applied on 2 sides) = ~46£.
24 words + 1 hiding the first word = 13 washers (if applied on 2 sides) ~ 86£.
Multiply the price by 2 if only 1 word will be writed on each washer.

Quote from: n0nce on August 15, 2022, 05:27:44 PM

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.

Probably, after my preliminary calculations, it will no longer seem cheaper.

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Quote from: n0nce on August 15, 2022, 05:27:44 PM

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.

OMG they exist already! Cheesy

I am not sure why people would use titanium washers in real life, but maybe someone is using them in nuclear plants, or in places that need higher melting point.
For titanium it's around 1650 – 1670 °C (3000 – 3040 °F) and for stainless steel it's 1230 – 1530 °C (2250 – 2790 °F).
They are still cheaper than most stainless steel ready made products, but only thing I would be concerned if adding letters would be much harder, or if it's even possible to add them.

Titanium - The strongest metal on earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAR3allc7U

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 15, 2022, 12:30:33 PM

Maybe someone could send him regular stainless steel washers with random words for empty wallet, if he didn't test that already.
Problem is that not all washers are made equally, so it's important to note exact size and metal alloy.

He can simply state which alloy was used, in fact it's something he's already doing when speaking about plate-type seed backups:

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 15, 2022, 12:30:33 PM

Quote from: n0nce on August 14, 2022, 05:43:10 PM

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.

I don't know if anyone made titanium washers but they would be much more expensive.
Stainless steel washers are good enough, unless they are some cheap chinese alloy mix with aluminum.

Titanium washers exist; not cheap, but not unviable.

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Since you can do a 24-word backup on 12 washers, plus one to hide the first word when everything's screwed together, it will be between 20 and 40 bucks. Just in case anyone absolutely wants to do it for whatever reason.. Grin

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.

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Quote from: fillippone on August 13, 2022, 08:32:38 PM

So I guess he’s not done with testing rounds and reviews!

No he is not done yet, as long as people are making new stuff and sending him for stress testing.
Maybe someone could send him regular stainless steel washers with random words for empty wallet, if he didn't test that already.
Problem is that not all washers are made equally, so it's important to note exact size and metal alloy.

Quote from: n0nce on August 14, 2022, 05:43:10 PM

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.

I don't know if anyone made titanium washers but they would be much more expensive.
Stainless steel washers are good enough, unless they are some cheap chinese alloy mix with aluminum.

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Quote from: fillippone on August 13, 2022, 10:10:20 AM

A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

I had his KISS and privacy principles in mind when realising this guide.

Regarding 'A single solid piece of metal' as a requirement for a good seed backup; I am really curious about what he thinks about the washer backup technique, compared to the commercial solutions.
I know he tried it already, but it would have been great if that was included in this summary, as well.

As of right now, a seed phrase backup 'product' would really need to be something extraordinary to move me away from washers. It's just so simple, so private, so unconspicuous and I love how you can easily re-stamp words if you messed one up.

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 13, 2022, 05:07:48 PM

Quote from: fillippone on August 13, 2022, 10:10:20 AM

A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

Nice reading material from JL as usual!
Did you know he is working on testing new set of metal seed backup plates/devices?
I think he received some of them from forum members that found about Jameson Lopp in this place Wink

He made post about stress testing new devices few weeks ago (Secret Seed, Coinplate, Cryptotag, etc.):
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/lopp/status/1555683927502819334

I guess that article is not an end to his backup solution reviews, but rather a “summary” of lessons learned so far.
This is useful to both users assessing the quality of their storage solution and Producers, trying new design ideas.

So I guess he’s not done with testing rounds and reviews!

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Quote from: fillippone on August 13, 2022, 10:10:20 AM

A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

Nice reading material from JL as usual!
Did you know he is working on testing new set of metal seed backup plates/devices?
I think he received some of them from forum members that found about Jameson Lopp in this place Wink

He made post about stress testing new devices few weeks ago (Secret Seed, Coinplate, Cryptotag, etc.):
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/lopp/status/1555683927502819334

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A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

I had his KISS and privacy principles in mind when realising this guide.

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Quote from: LoyceV on July 14, 2022, 11:59:31 AM

Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on July 14, 2022, 11:37:22 AM

change the letters into binary

That defeats the purpose of using words, and makes mistakes much more likely again.

At that point a would suggest the WIF format.
This is a good compromise between human readability and the risk associated with the slightly different implementations of the BIP39 standard (I.e. Word lists, derivation paths etc.)

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on July 14, 2022, 11:37:22 AM

change the letters into binary

That defeats the purpose of using words, and makes mistakes much more likely again.

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Just an idea here, if you change the letters into binary then instead of buying a whole set of stamping letter you need two old screwdrivers one Philips and one flat one and you are done, you need just a bigger washers.

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Quote from: n0nce on July 13, 2022, 06:22:17 PM

On the other hand, I just realized an issue with CNC cutting, which is that you'd need to find a way to mechanically fasten the washers in place without the drill bit interfering with your fastening method.

While using a CNC cutting machine anyway, just start with a metal plate. Engrave the words, then cut out washers Cheesy

Quote

By the way, I'm certain a better stamping surface will make it much easier, since the rather soft workbench I use with a piece of metal on it, simply absorbs a lot of force. By using a nice anvil like fillippone, most of your energy will go into the letter.

Definitely! You shouldn't stamp on wood, even just a heavy hammer under the washer will do.

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Quote from: LoyceV on July 13, 2022, 02:22:32 AM

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 06:53:24 PM

From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300

I think the KISS principle applies here: a seed storage doesn't have to look good, because you can't show it off and you won't hang it on the wall. It's literally meant for your eyes only, so if a hammer and letter stamps can do the job, I wouldn't use a CNC cutter.

Totally agree with the looks not being as important, but from my experience so far, it gets a little exhausting doing a few backups in a day.
On the other hand, I just realized an issue with CNC cutting, which is that you'd need to find a way to mechanically fasten the washers in place without the drill bit interfering with your fastening method. So I'd say 'scratch that idea'.. Wink

By the way, I'm certain a better stamping surface will make it much easier, since the rather soft workbench I use with a piece of metal on it, simply absorbs a lot of force. By using a nice anvil like fillippone, most of your energy will go into the letter.

Quote from: m2017 on July 13, 2022, 12:16:39 PM

And the cheaper (although that's probably what you meant). E-mark machine, of course, is a cool thing, or even a laser, but a hammer and a stamps will cost less.

Absolutely!

Quote from: n0nce on October 02, 2021, 08:50:26 AM

The idea is inspired from econoalchemist's blog post Securing a Bitcoin seed phrase in stainless-steel washers. and it's very great:

Materials cost under 5 bucks (€, $, £, it's always the same ballpark). I paid around 3€ for 32 washers and maybe 1€ for the screw and nut.
No shipping cost since everyone has a hardware store nearby.
Anonymous since nobody knows what you use basic metal hardware for.
All stainless steel, quite durable, on par with commercial Bitcoin backup products.
Greater thickness than some commercial products

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Quote from: fillippone on July 13, 2022, 07:48:51 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on July 13, 2022, 02:22:32 AM

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 06:53:24 PM

From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300

I think the KISS principle applies here

Very nice.
I didn’t know this principle, but for sure applies here: the less, the simpler, the better.

And the cheaper (although that's probably what you meant). E-mark machine, of course, is a cool thing, or even a laser, but a hammer and a stamps will cost less.

Regarding the laser: under what conditions can a text applied in this way become unreadable? What is vulnerable to text printed with a laser? However, the text printed with stamps will be difficult to spoil due to the intaglio printing on metal, and this method seems to be more reliable than laser.

Quote from: fillippone on July 13, 2022, 07:48:51 AM

Only thing is that probably a better stamped letter is more resistant to damage than a poorly stamped one. So the right tool might be necessary.

I made a sample (in an earlier post in this thread) using a slightly sharpened screwdriver (hard to call it the right tool) and the stamping result was quite readable with sufficient depth of writing. So, if desired and diligent, you can print the text on washers and with improvised means. Although it will take longer and the result will be far from participating in art competitions (but the main thing is readability).

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Quote from: LoyceV on July 13, 2022, 02:22:32 AM

Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 06:53:24 PM

From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300

I think the KISS principle applies here

Very nice.
I didn’t know this principle, but for sure applies here: the less, the simpler, the better.
Only thing is that probably a better stamped letter is more resistant to damage than a poorly stamped one. So the right tool might be necessary.

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Quote from: n0nce on July 12, 2022, 06:53:24 PM

From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300

I think the KISS principle applies here: a seed storage doesn't have to look good, because you can't show it off and you won't hang it on the wall. It's literally meant for your eyes only, so if a hammer and letter stamps can do the job, I wouldn't use a CNC cutter.

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Quote from: fillippone on July 12, 2022, 12:25:13 AM

As many of you suggested, using those machines require putting your seed into those.
I would never trust any of those machine, even if they claim they don’t track what has been stamped.
So, either we buy one of those for personal use, and then we are ready to destroy it after the first use, or the washer method is superior in security terms.

Since we're throwing around ideas:

Based on the laser CNC idea from the Italian board, as seen below, how about using an actual (cheap, DIY type) CNC router?

Quote from: gbianchi on June 02, 2022, 08:17:04 AM

~snip~

From what I can tell, you can get DIY CNC routers for $200-$300; compared to laser etching, you can't hurt your eyesight, the cut would be deeper and it should be much quicker (though a bit messier).
What's nice about these simple machines is that in general (from my experience with 3D printers), they don't save the code persistently. When they're turned off, they essentially 'forget everything' and often print / cut from a microSD card directly, which you can wipe after you are done. It can also be generated offline with the supplied software or something more elaborate on a dedicated laptop. Most people who do 3D printing and milling have a dedicated machine in the shop just for the purpose of generating toolpaths anyway.

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As many of you suggested, using those machines require putting your seed into those.
I would never trust any of those machine, even if they claim they don’t track what has been stamped.
So, either we buy one of those for personal use, and then we are ready to destroy it after the first use, or the washer method is superior in security terms.

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Quote from: n0nce on July 10, 2022, 07:25:11 PM

I just learned from o_e_l_e_o that the privacy-focused email provider proton.me, which some of you may be using, now offers to create 12-word recovery phrases for your email account.
This will be another useful application for this seed phrase backup technique. After all, these washer backups are dirt cheap after initial investment for the equipment.
Just wanted to let all the 'washer guys' (? Cheesy

) here know about it in case they're interested..

Yeah also recently came to know about the news from him and was happy to see that they are adopting BIP-39 entropy for the recovery seed phrase.Along with it you can download the recovery file and you have to upload it if you want to change the password for your mail.This seed needs to be properly backed up and don't leave it at unsafe places.

Quote from: aysg76 on July 11, 2022, 03:51:48 AM

That's nice feature addition to proton recovery methods but remember still you need to safely backup the recovery phrase and don't open recovery file.But you have option to increase your security with it.

Coming back to the orginal topic for seed phrases then we see above the SIC marking Doot peen marking machine beast that could help you to mark up on metals with clarity also but didn't know the prices for the same.

So there was one article which I found interesting about these marking machines depending on the metal type we are using and explain in good depth how the engraving works and which technology is best for the particular metal and if you "washer guys" are interested in it you can read it here : Right marking machine

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There was a thread about it here: Proton-mail is using BIP39 for its recovery phrase!

As noted in that thread, this account recovery phrase follows the exact same specification as BIP39. You can see the code here: https://github.com/ProtonMail/bip39

It should go without saying that you should not use the same seed phrase for both ProtonMail recovery and for storing bitcoins, for obvious reasons.

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 15. (Read 7156 times)