Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 15. (Read 7364 times)

My friend @hymperion from the Italian Board:
made a hard treatment to the washers without any apparent effect:

(courtesy translation by me, original post in Italian)


The images are pretty self-explanatory.

He also mentioned using acid as H2SO4 on the washers without any major effect still.

Well that might be true because the washer itself might be cheap in some countries but differ in prices in the location. This made me to do some research on the price difference and I came to see that the prices are not the in different sites. I thought because of the size of the washers or the quality.

 https://racetechtitanium.com/product-category/fasteners/titanium-fasteners/titanium-washers/


Even the sites n0nce provided, the prices are not the same. That means different companies sell it with different prices. Therefore, in some wholesales and retails sell differently. And also that can not be compared to a close place with a distance location and to interior Hamlets.

Thanks for the kind words, but when I got this notification on my hairy wiriest, I really hoped you had finally published your contribution to this topic!
Less words, more facts!
 

While I want to congratulate fillippone for this incredible article and for all the (physical) work he did for being possible to write it, this topic reminded me of something and I wanted to post these thoughts for a while now, but I keep forgetting to do it...

Seeing fillippone's enthusiams (and also the ones' mentioned in OP), this reminded me of modders. Do you remember the modders? Those enthusiasts which started, many years ago, to modify PC cases, to make exotic cable management, add lights and so on...? Those which did physical work to cut the cases in various shapes as their imagination drove them...?

Well, no matter how well designed a case was, modders' "credo" was this: "why not modify it if we can?" -- this being, of course, in contradiction to PC cases designers, which would say "why would you change such a beautiful case, since it's just perfect?"

Similar to the two credos mentioned above, nowadays we have many types of wallets, each competing with the others for attracting as many users as possible. But still, there are some enthusiasts, such as fillippone, which are willing to try new ideas, ideas also involving physical work, same as modders do. And also, most likely, having same question in mind: "why not change it (n.b. the "old-school" method of storing coins inside a wallet) if we can?".

And, as you see, from this mindset beautiful ideas may arise, including to actually use an anvil (!!!) for storing BTC / private keys...

---

Hihi, anytime! (Although I don't remember anymore what the monstrosity was )

I looked at your links and I will say yes, you are right, it is quite affordable (although I had the belief that it was too expensive), even with shipping included. If necessary, those who wish to obtain an ultra-reliable method of storing seed phrase can use titanium washers and it won't ruin them financially.

Titanium washers will cost more than $20-40. And that's why:
https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ - in this link there are washers with an outer diameter of 15mm, which I consider very small and it will be problematic to put text on them. Also, the thickness of the washer seems to me too small - only 1mm. As a result, the dimensions and thickness of this particular sample will not allow you to write 2 words for each washer. With due skill and necessity, this is doable (despite the miniaturization of the text), but it is better to choose https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-washer-m12-28mm-od-form-c/ - washers with an outer diameter of 28mm and a thickness of 2.5mm at a price of 6.6£ each.

Let's calculate the costs:
12 words + 1 hiding the first word = 7 washers (if applied on 2 sides) = ~46£.
24 words + 1 hiding the first word = 13 washers (if applied on 2 sides) ~ 86£.
Multiply the price by 2 if only 1 word will be writed on each washer.

Probably, after my preliminary calculations, it will no longer seem cheaper.

OMG they exist already!  
I am not sure why people would use titanium washers in real life, but maybe someone is using them in nuclear plants, or in places that need higher melting point.
For titanium it's around 1650 – 1670 °C (3000 – 3040 °F) and for stainless steel it's 1230 – 1530 °C (2250 – 2790 °F).
They are still cheaper than most stainless steel ready made products, but only thing I would be concerned if adding letters would be much harder, or if it's even possible to add them.

Titanium - The strongest metal on earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAR3allc7U

He can simply state which alloy was used, in fact it's something he's already doing when speaking about plate-type seed backups:

Titanium washers exist; not cheap, but not unviable.

https://www.pro-bolt.com/titanium-flat-washer-m5-15mm-od/ ~3€ each
https://www.titane-services.eu/epages/230155.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/230155/Products/TIR-MU05GR5 ~1.50€ each

Since you can do a 24-word backup on 12 washers, plus one to hide the first word when everything's screwed together, it will be between 20 and 40 bucks. Just in case anyone absolutely wants to do it for whatever reason..

Cheaper than some stainless steel 'seed backup plates'; and definitely cheaper than some (or most) titanium plates. I've seen those going for well over 50 bucks.

No he is not done yet, as long as people are making new stuff and sending him for stress testing.
Maybe someone could send him regular stainless steel washers with random words for empty wallet, if he didn't test that already.
Problem is that not all washers are made equally, so it's important to note exact size and metal alloy.

I don't know if anyone made titanium washers but they would be much more expensive.
Stainless steel washers are good enough, unless they are some cheap chinese alloy mix with aluminum.

Regarding 'A single solid piece of metal' as a requirement for a good seed backup; I am really curious about what he thinks about the washer backup technique, compared to the commercial solutions.
I know he tried it already, but it would have been great if that was included in this summary, as well.

As of right now, a seed phrase backup 'product' would really need to be something extraordinary to move me away from washers. It's just so simple, so private, so unconspicuous and I love how you can easily re-stamp words if you messed one up.

I'm sure it will be possible to acquire high-temp washers, otherwise leverage the fact they are so cheap and make more of them to distribute.

I guess that article is not an end to his backup solution reviews, but rather a “summary” of lessons learned so far.
This is useful to both users assessing the quality of their storage solution and Producers, trying new design ideas.

So I guess he’s not done with testing rounds and reviews!

Nice reading material from JL as usual!
Did you know he is working on testing new set of metal seed backup plates/devices?
I think he received some of them from forum members that found about Jameson Lopp in this place
He made post about stress testing new devices few weeks ago (Secret Seed, Coinplate, Cryptotag, etc.):
https://nitter.kavin.rocks/lopp/status/1555683927502819334

A great read from Jameson Lopp about seed phrase backup.

A Treatise on Bitcoin Seed Backup Device Design

I had his KISS and privacy principles in mind when realising this guide.

At that point a would suggest the WIF format.
This is a good compromise between human readability and the risk associated with the slightly different implementations of the BIP39 standard (I.e. Word lists, derivation paths etc.)

That defeats the purpose of using words, and makes mistakes much more likely again.

Just an idea here, if you change the letters into binary then instead of buying a whole set of stamping letter you need two old screwdrivers one Philips and one flat one and you are done, you need just a bigger washers.

While using a CNC cutting machine anyway, just start with a metal plate. Engrave the words, then cut out washers

Definitely! You shouldn't stamp on wood, even just a heavy hammer under the washer will do.

Totally agree with the looks not being as important, but from my experience so far, it gets a little exhausting doing a few backups in a day.
On the other hand, I just realized an issue with CNC cutting, which is that you'd need to find a way to mechanically fasten the washers in place without the drill bit interfering with your fastening method. So I'd say 'scratch that idea'..

By the way, I'm certain a better stamping surface will make it much easier, since the rather soft workbench I use with a piece of metal on it, simply absorbs a lot of force. By using a nice anvil like fillippone, most of your energy will go into the letter.

Absolutely!

And the cheaper (although that's probably what you meant). E-mark machine, of course, is a cool thing, or even a laser, but a hammer and a stamps will cost less.

Regarding the laser: under what conditions can a text applied in this way become unreadable? What is vulnerable to text printed with a laser? However, the text printed with stamps will be difficult to spoil due to the intaglio printing on metal, and this method seems to be more reliable than laser.

I made a sample (in an earlier post in this thread) using a slightly sharpened screwdriver (hard to call it the right tool) and the stamping result was quite readable with sufficient depth of writing. So, if desired and diligent, you can print the text on washers and with improvised means. Although it will take longer and the result will be far from participating in art competitions (but the main thing is readability).

Very nice.
I didn’t know this principle, but for sure applies here: the less, the simpler, the better.
Only thing is that probably a better stamped letter is more resistant to damage than a poorly stamped one. So the right tool might be necessary.

I think the KISS principle applies here: a seed storage doesn't have to look good, because you can't show it off and you won't hang it on the wall. It's literally meant for your eyes only, so if a hammer and letter stamps can do the job, I wouldn't use a CNC cutter.