Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 15. (Read 5896 times)

I've also been thinking about employing this technique for other non related Bitcoin things, such as passwords, obviously randomly generated passwords. Might be more secure than a password manager since the weakness there is your master password, and hardware key if you've got one. The thing is the capsule is much easier to disguise, and doesn't initially scream like your hiding something, although I can also think of other ways of concealing washers quite innocently.

Nice one, pretty decent price considering that there's not much of a competing market out there. Might just get one to support him also. Its nice to see someone get into this niche at such a young age, obviously I'm assuming there is some sort of parental guidance going on.

Fully agree with the above statement.
There is no point saving a few centimeter printing both side of the washers, risking that any mishap to the backup make the seed unreadable.
I prefer reliability over convenience, in this specific case.

On first thought, I really like the idea; it allows to have more compact backups and even combine two backups on one screw.
However, I personally always value legibility over size / anything else. This also applies to stuff like custom crypto (shuffling words, ...) or super strong passphrases. That's because I am convinced the risk of losing funds due to unrecoverable backups is much higher than losing funds by being attacked.
In this context, I think paying a few cents more and getting enough hardware to write down all words in full, is definitely going to be worth it.

For instance, you will need to either number (but that takes up more space) every 4-letter 'word slice' or you'll have to remember / mark somehow for each washer which is the first, second, third and fourth word. If you do it like myself or fillippone, you will have one word per side and one number per side, so it's easy and clear to read.

Keep in mind that these backups are supposed to withstand extreme conditions, under which a letter may become indecipherable. In such a situation, you'll be happy that you wrote down more than the minimum required 4 letters per word.

It could be viable as a secondary backup, especially for being able to store a few wallets' seeds in one small convenient location, with separate, 'full backups' somewhere else. Like, if you have to move somewhere for a while or something, I get it that carrying multiple of my backups will quickly get heavy.

Yesterday I wrote in topic stainless seed plate and came to the conclusion that it should have been posted here. Which is exactly what I'm going to do now.


I decided to add visibility to my yesterday's idea and refine it a little, diluting it with my comments on this matter.

I took the already known washers (the most common metal ones, not inox), a couple of nuts and a threaded rod. You can vary set according to their availability in your toolbox or store.

With this mini-experiment, I want to clearly show that 4 words can be applied to 1 washer. 2 on one side and 2 on the back. If reduce the number of letters to 4 (this is enough to identify the desired right word and restore seed-phrase). There is still space for numbering the puck so as not to make a mistake with the word order.


In principle, if you use slightly larger washers, you can fit more symbols.


In order to place 24 words (the first 4 letters), 7 washers will be enough. On 5 washers , apply 4 words, and on 2 washers, only 2 words on one side for each (when assembling the storage, place these 2 washers on 2 sides, clean sides out). This will hide the image.

Also, nothing prevents you from combining 2-3-4 seed phrases into one construction, this will be 12-18-24 washers.

Now about my symbols in the pictures. These are arbitrary symbols to show their legibility, applied with a regular screwdriver (hard alloy is needed). As I said, the thickness of the washers is 3 mm, and this allows you to apply text on both sides. There are no dents or marks on the back side. This can be seen in the pictures above.

I would like to add that I don't invent what was invented by fillippone, but only slightly modernized in order to make the storage more compact.

Wow... I have to say that I am impressed with this kid!
He is 13 years old and he already have his own website, and he is selling 3d printed stuff, SeedSigner, Raspberyy Pi Zero (in stock!) and he is accepting both Bitcoin and Lightning payments!
Even if you don't live in United Kingdom you can order from that website if you live anywhere in Europe or anywhere lese in the world.
He is learning programing languages for Bitcoin, and one more interesting thing is that his sister (sheis seven years old btw), want's to start her own Bitcoin only store, according to one of his tweets @IsaacWeeks  

If anyone in the United Kingdom wants to buy a Blockmit jig (though I believe mine is better due to the ability to customize it! ) I just found out this 13 year old kid runs a 3D printing Bitcoin shop over there and has the jig in stock for £5.00 which is a pretty solid price in my opinion.

https://robotechy.com/


I'm sure you could also send him a customized STL file of my jig and he'd print it for a similar price.
Not affiliated, just giving a shout out to a young entrepreneur!^{(I'm sure there are parents in the background to help him, but still I support it when children do something useful with their time)}

Mamma mia!
I have to say Jameson Lopp always have some new interesting articles and materials for reading.
Most important thing for using any solution for backing up your seed phrase is to Test Your Backup.

On topic of Seed Words backup I am posting one VIDEO Comparison of Best Metal Seed Phrase Storage solutions based on Jameson Lopp testing.
This guy even made nice spreadsheet with most currently available devices, so you can consider it addition to original work made by Jameson Lopp.

I also saw one more stainless seed plate made by our forum member willi9974, and I think he is sending that plate for new round of Lopp testing.

As I said in OP, the method used to secure your own phrase should be carefully selected.
On this topic, a. very interesting read by Jameson Lopp:

How to Back Up a Seed Phrase

Guys, the whole point of the experiment is grasping the beauty of the simplicity of the design.
A few washers, a nut and a bolt. That's it.
Maybe a fancy aluminum container, just because.
Stop it.

Tamper seals and everything is not necessary.
Do not overcomplicate things.

Less is more.

Why though? It just takes much longer, needs a lot higher-end tools and provides zero benefits. Washers are already super inconspicuous to buy, readily available, they exist in any size and the jig can also adapted to any size of washer with my code. I don't see anyone doing this honestly.
Washers also do exist in enough types of materials. From the top of my head: aluminium, steel, stainless steel. Stainless steel is fine enough to stamp; what I said before was mostly a side note (about sometimes not stamping deep enough).

The advantage of washers over sheet metal is that it should be easier and cheaper to get and with the jig it gives you a quick and nice result. It's also more compact and I'd argue it should be easier to find in rubble.

I don't dispute the superiority of stainless steel over aluminum in terms of corrosion resistance and strength, but stainless steel is less machinable (although this is affected by the thickness of the metal). For example, stamping on aluminum is easier and the depth of the letters will be deeper, and hence the legibility of the text. That's the reason why I suggested aluminum.

Each metal has its own characteristics. Based on this, everyone can choose with the characteristics necessary for him and under his own specific conditions. For additional protection, can paint after all, right.

It seems that someone has already mentioned this, but why not use several variants of storage from different metals? That is, duplicate text on 2 or more types of metal.

Washers are good - no doubt. There is no universal solution, and therefore, which of the methods to use, we will leave it to everyone to decide personally. Below is the text why I still tried to invent warm water.

The hexagon (or other polygon) was chosen because this shape is more like a circle and will fit in the cylindrical capsule suggested by n0nce. After all, we are still discussing in the topic where washers + capsule are used for storage.

You can also make a square shape, but then need a square-shaped capsule or other case. This is the case if you cut plates. It will have to be stored in something or fastened together so as not to get lost.

In principle, the hole in the center can be abandoned if the hexagons are still stored in the capsule. Just need to fix them tightly inside. For example, pour or compact something. Of course, so that later you can extract.

As a reminder, the hexagon was chosen to expand the range of metals (and not be limited to stainless steel or aluminum washers) that can be used to store seed-phrase.

The option with a sheet of metal is also good, but in this case the surface area will be larger (folding the metal foxes like a sheet of paper will not work). I like the capsule puck idea because it makes the storage compact.

This is not a competition for the most beautiful seed storage, but a way to save important information. The main function is safety and readability, and everything else is secondary. Imho.

I hope I was able to explain the reasons for my proposed ideas.

To avoid injury,can use the services of those who know how to process metal. It is unlikely that anyone will be surprised to cut out hexagons or squares from a sheet of metal. When asked what it is for, it can always be explained by the creation of components for a hobby.

Of course And indeed with a 1 mm INOX cutting disk (as mentioned in your video). It cuts through steel like a warm knife through butter.

Cleaning the edges is indeed more work than the actual cutting.

The real danger is when a cutting disk breaks and spreads high velocity fragments:

Did you actually ever tried cutting stainless steel metal?
I did cut various metals before in my life but it was never stainless steel  so I can't really say more about it.
Most people would create very sharp edges that are begging for blood from fingers, and I have seen people cut themselves many times even on paper
You would need to have proper tools depending on how thick metal is, and it's not good if metal is to thin.
Video showing cutting of stainless steel sheet metal with angle grinder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO7sX9MixV0

Why a hexagon, and not just squares? Even easier: don't cut at all, just take some sheet metal, and start hammering:
01 ABANDON
02 ABILITY
.......
24 ABLE
Then fold the metal, and store it. No need to drill and use a bolt.

Cutting it is easy, making it look good is the difficult part

I don't know what you mean exactly...because most washers are made from stainless steel and it has even better corrosion resistance than aluminum.
Aluminum in normal conditions have good corrosion resistance and will not rust, but if any acidic or base liquid is added it corrodes rapidly resulting in catastrophic failure.
This means that stainless steel is almost perfect for seed storage, and only other metal that would be better is titanium, that is much more expensive.

This is just to much complicated for average human being, cutting metal is not very easy to do especially stainless steel, and will most likely result is cutting accidents and spilled blood, if not done correctly.
I am saying don't invent warm water all over again, just use washers or plates and don't overthink it.

Most likely, yes, it will be better that way. Need to test this and choose the most optimal solution.

Together with the outer capsule, the strength should be acceptable. Also, you can use a capsule made of a more durable material (steel or stainless steel).

This is not just a box, but a safe with a combination lock for storing your washers capsule or paper seed-phrase (no one is responsible for safety).  

Can add a few elements you need to such a drawing and give it to any company on order (to cut parts with a laser), even if you have it across the road. No one will guess about the extra elements, unless of course they read this topic.

Yes, that's right, it was conceived as a cheap alternative that is simple and quick to make. It will not take so much time to make: draw a shape, cut it out of cardboard, glue it - that's all.

Oh no, no. You didn't quite understand my idea. I used a marker (for clarity) only because I don't have stamps (I wrote about this above). According to my idea, stamps should be used instead of a marker, as in n0nce's project.

Ok. If Jameson is against aluminum , then can replace it with any metal, be it copper, stainless steel, brass - which has high corrosion resistance, high melting point and strength. The catch may be that it will not be easy to find washers made of any metal.

My alternative to washers: cut out a polygon from a sheet of metal (metal and thickness of your choice).  For example, a hexagon (I assume that a hexagon will be quite enough). The number of polygons will depend on the degree of your laziness, because you have to cut it yourself.   Then drill a hole in the center. You will get a low-poly analogue of a washer. Using a hand-held power tool (drill, dremel), there should be no problems with making. I hope LoyceV will approve my proposal with an idea old-fashioned DIY woodworking metall.  


Advantages: The ability to customize for any size of the "washer", holes (can choose a bolt with a smaller diameter), and most importantly, ample opportunities with the choice of metal (can even make it from gold ).

Disadvantages: The need for power tools and the skills to use them. You can compensate for all this by "outsourcing" the production.

Using an engraver is also an effective idea. Then don't need a jig at all (instead of stamps), but you can use my little project as a stencil for drawing letters evenly. First, you can draw the letters with a marker (do exactly the same as in my 1st post in this thread), and then just go over the inscription with an engraver.

You can make your own template out of cardboard or plywood with the right size for pucks, for example. Also, look at well-known chinese stores, where you can find smaller tips.

I'm sure it will work the same way. After all, that's what he was made for.

Interesting little project, but this looks like a cheap alternative that is more time consuming to make, and it's inferior to engraving procedure in many ways, and using glue and markers means that it can easily be removed with some liquids.

This is terrible idea!
Never use aluminum in any way for storing seed words... you can see Jameson Lopp test with some metal backups made partially from this metal.
It can be distorted much easier and it melt's on much lower temperature than stainless steel or copper, especially if it's some cheap alloy it can be even lower.
Someone said that you can easily avoid corrosion for stainless steel with industrial fat or even with paint, if you worry about that (I wouldn't if stored properly).
For comparison, it can have almost three times lower melting point compared to cheap washers made from stainless steel:

Aluminum 1220 F or 660 C
Aluminum Alloys 865-1240 F  or 463-671 C
Copper 1983 F  or 1084 C
Stainless Steel  2750 F  or 1510 C

Few days ago I saw in my local shop they are selling cheap engraving tool that works on Li-ion batteries and it comes with several templates made from letters, numbers and shapes.
This can easily be used to make custom metal backup for bitcoin, but templates and tip is bigger than washers, so I would need to buy bigger washers, or use metal plates.
Engraving tool I saw works on all surfaces like wood, plastic, stone and metal, nut I am not sure how it will work on stainless steel yet.
Here is one video of one similar tool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_tq8ixXmLM

But why? Why would you use a laser cutter for plywood, and not a drill, chisel or jigsaw? What happened to old-fashioned DIY woodworking?

Or both: one steel and one aluminum backup, so you get the benefits from both materials while mitigating the drawbacks.

I would still do a few and glue them together though, to keep the stamp from wobbling around.

Yeah, on one hand steel backups are way more popular since it's less easy to bend e.g. if a house were to burn down and it's crushed. On the other hand, those are usually single sheets of steel, while this method gives you a compact, solid cylinder of metal that should be a lot harder to bend, even if the material itself was as soft as aluminium.
Only other reason against it could be price, but it does sound like a good substitute for a better result and less corrosion risk!

I like this idea. You really think outside the box. Make the circle part of some other design (such as the box you've shown) and trash the rest once you receive it. Nice!

It cannot, it would melt! Though if you have a CO2 laser, you can cut certain types of acrylic sheets. Engraving metal also requires one of the more expensive CO2-based laser cutters.

Of course, you can't help but like this idea, since it's basically your idea. I just simplified it and slightly changed it, making it accessible even to a schoolboy.

Yes, I assumed that the layer in my case is too thin and in real use with a stamp, a thicker thickness is needed. This is a kind of prototype, which aims to show the general concept and requires further development for practical use.

Yes, in my case there are few sheets of cardboard. More is needed to better fix the stamp.  I think the optimal thickness will be ~ 5-10 mm.

Oh yeah, laser. How did it not occur to me. Can even cut a template out of plywood and it will be durable and regular in shape.

Well, I didn't assume otherwise and was sure that there was a vested interest here.

How about using washers from another metal? Softer, for example, aluminum. This metal is not subject to corrosion due to the oxide film, which is quite resistant to weathering. The melting point is also not very low. But the main advantage is ease and pliability in processing.

You misunderstood. A laser can be used to make a template. For example, from plywood, something like here.
The perfect place to store seed-phrase, right? Ok, at least cute for sure.

Wood will be stronger than cardboard and hold its shape well, almost like plastic. Also, the laser burns out the edges of the plywood, which strengthens the wood in these places. So, I think the strength is quite high (in theory).

Can order along with the details for the template and other elements, so as not to raise questions, why do you need this product. Lose them among other elements. Something like bitcoin-mixer. No one will guess why you need a few circles in a common pile of details. And already at home you can glue them (as in my post with cardboard) or fasten them with bolts (or other ways ) and apply them to your needs.

While I was writing the answer to LoyceV, you already outstripped me with an explanation.

The laser can't cut plastic from a piece, can't it? And how about engraving washers with this laser? Engraving depth not enough?