Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 12.

dkbit98

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on December 09, 2022, 08:57:24 PM

In case you are in a doubt, you can always apply grese on the washers in case you live close to the coastline. That will add a few more decades life of the washers in case of tsunami, or you can hide them in a water too.

Other than oil, there is also paint that is used specially for protection against rust.
I even saw some examples of users who created painted DIY bitcoin stainless seed washers.

Quote from: LoyceV on December 10, 2022, 03:37:55 AM

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

That's a good idea, because oil and water doesn't mix at all, and even putting them in grease or fat would work just fine.
Titanium is great, and I think someone said that washers from titanium exist, but they are much more expensive.

Quote from: DaveF on December 10, 2022, 09:15:34 AM

Wax would probably also work well. And hide what they are. Get a candle mold, put the stack in, make the candle with a wick and put it on a shelf. Decorative candle that holds your seed phrase in an airtight way. Odds are a thief is not going to go after a candle on a shelf if you happen to get robbed.

Works 100%.
I know people who are using bee wax for securely sealing containers.

DaveF

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 10, 2022, 03:37:55 AM

Quote from: Welsh on December 09, 2022, 01:56:47 PM

I don't know how many times I've had questionable metal, that's suppose to not rust, and do. I've even had titanium which rusted within a few days. I'm currently looking for these Hermetic containers though, struggling to find them.

I've never had the pleasure of owning titanium, but Google tells me pure titanium doesn't rust.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

Wax would probably also work well. And hide what they are. Get a candle mold, put the stack in, make the candle with a wick and put it on a shelf. Decorative candle that holds your seed phrase in an airtight way. Odds are a thief is not going to go after a candle on a shelf if you happen to get robbed.

And yes, pure titanium should not rust but a lot of titanium alloys will.

-Dave

LoyceV

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Quote from: Welsh on December 09, 2022, 01:56:47 PM

I don't know how many times I've had questionable metal, that's suppose to not rust, and do. I've even had titanium which rusted within a few days. I'm currently looking for these Hermetic containers though, struggling to find them.

I've never had the pleasure of owning titanium, but Google tells me pure titanium doesn't rust.

Why not just submerge them in oil? It won't matter if the container isn't perfectly sealed, no air can reach the metal.

m2017

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on December 09, 2022, 08:57:24 PM

Reagarding the rust free metals, There's a big difference between rust free coating and rust free metal.
Many sellers play with that and expected quality is far from the reality.
If the coating is damaged the bottom layer will start rusting.
It saves money to the seller but do the opposite to the buyer.
I haven't seen stainless steel washers rusting yet. If they are 316L then you are on the safe side.

In case you are in a doubt, you can always apply grese on the washers in case you live close to the coastline. That will add a few more decades life of the washers in case of tsunami, or you can hide them in a water too.

Even on rusted washers exposed on normal weather conditions, if the stamps are deep enough, they will be readable for years.

Then the thickness of the metal on the washers will need to be thicker, which, accordingly, will increase the overall size of the washers. The thicker they are, the larger the size. This creates some difficulties for ordinary users. Making deep stamps on thick metal with stamps is almost impossible and will require deep engraving, laser or dremel. In any case, you will need special equipment.

This level of protection and preservation of the puck can only be done by people with access to the necessary equipment and the appropriate skills. No one in their right mind would think to apply with such an order to specialized services.

Even that miracle machine causes only superficial and not deep dots - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.60523498.

Although a piece of metal in the last photo in that post is impressive.

TheBeardedBaby

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₿uy / $ell ..oeleo ;(

Reagarding the rust free metals, There's a big difference between rust free coating and rust free metal.
Many sellers play with that and expected quality is far from the reality.
If the coating is damaged the bottom layer will start rusting.
It saves money to the seller but do the opposite to the buyer.
I haven't seen stainless steel washers rusting yet. If they are 316L then you are on the safe side.

In case you are in a doubt, you can always apply grese on the washers in case you live close to the coastline. That will add a few more decades life of the washers in case of tsunami, or you can hide them in a water too.

Even on rusted washers exposed on normal weather conditions, if the stamps are deep enough, they will be readable for years.

fillippone

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Quote from: Welsh on December 09, 2022, 01:56:47 PM

I agree, the tests are fun, and it's always fun testing for the unlikely, even if that unlikely is incredibly unlikely Tongue

.

This is the whole point of the thread.
I guess in reality it would be very unlikely for any of those seeds to be submerged in salt water for too long.
Even in the most dramatic earthquake, you are allowed to go back to your place and recover your belongings.
This would be your chance to recover your precious bolted washers.

Welsh

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I agree, the tests are fun, and it's always fun testing for the unlikely, even if that unlikely is incredibly unlikely Tongue

.

Quote from: n0nce on December 02, 2022, 07:05:01 PM

The one exception to this would actually be fire or salt water (if you live near the sea); because house fires and floods are not normally occuring events, but could happen.

Plus, I'd submerging your materials inside of water too. I know it's not as abrasive as salt, but flooding from rain water is more common than from the sea, unless you live extremely close to the sea obviously. The reason being, as I said before you can't automatically trust the manufacturer of these materials, and whether they'll not degrade given a decent amount of time in water.

I don't know how many times I've had questionable metal, that's suppose to not rust, and do. I've even had titanium which rusted within a few days. I'm currently looking for these Hermetic containers though, struggling to find them.

fillippone

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Quote from: dkbit98 on December 07, 2022, 05:42:01 PM

Quote from: n0nce on December 05, 2022, 03:44:57 PM

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

Yes they are ... just search the term ''selling sea water'' on internet Cheesy

On Amazon I found Panakos was selling DEEP Seawater in 5.28 gallon, and I am sure there are other examples.
People are selling everything on internet, and every merchandise finds it's buyer in the end, question is if they are accepting Bitcoin for ''special'' ocean water Wink

Just hire few actors to advertise this on TV commercials and movies and you will have lines of people waiting to buy this...

Salt water, is for boys.
Canned air is for men:

https://www.ea-essentialair.com/ea-home/ea-universe/ea-air/

Quote

EA® AIR: 2 MODELS
Pure Air captured in the Principality of Andorra
To help you breathe pure air in bottle, we use our proprietary engineered, mechanical system to capture pure air in the Principality of Andorra.

You can buy it on the internet.

Back on topic: I don't see many reasons why your seed should be damaged by salt water, but you can try a long-run test. Just leave them in a jar for a couple of months to see what happens.

dkbit98

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Quote from: n0nce on December 05, 2022, 03:44:57 PM

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

Yes they are ... just search the term ''selling sea water'' on internet Cheesy

On Amazon I found Panakos was selling DEEP Seawater in 5.28 gallon, and I am sure there are other examples.
People are selling everything on internet, and every merchandise finds it's buyer in the end, question is if they are accepting Bitcoin for ''special'' ocean water Wink

Just hire few actors to advertise this on TV commercials and movies and you will have lines of people waiting to buy this...

hymperion

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Quote from: dkbit98 on December 05, 2022, 03:38:19 PM

yes, I'm only missing the one with salt water, I'd like to get the sea one directly but now I don't know where to find it, I'm a bit far away.
Italy is surrounded by sea last time I checked, but you can order it online and pay with Bitcoin Cheesy

Quote from: fillippone on December 05, 2022, 04:07:32 PM

Regarding the sea, it's obviously an excuse for @hymperion not to ruin his own OpSec... or actually the contrary, as the vast majority of Italy is in the immediate vicinity to the coastline.

you always see us long!

Quote from: n0nce on December 05, 2022, 03:44:57 PM

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

after musk made parfume with his hair and sold it for $200 if i'm not mistaken nothing surprises me anymore haha

LoyceV

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Quote from: n0nce on December 05, 2022, 03:44:57 PM

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

That's ridiculous! We only have cans, and they came free of charge:
Image loading...

(source)

fillippone

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Quote from: n0nce on December 05, 2022, 03:44:57 PM

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

You'd be amazed on the way women people are able to spend their money.
I am sure I saw canned air for sale.
Regarding the sea, it's obviously an excuse for @hymperion not to ruin his own OpSec... or actually the contrary, as the vast majority of Italy is in the immediate vicinity to the coastline.

n0nce

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Quote from: hymperion on December 03, 2022, 02:29:16 AM

yes, I'm only missing the one with salt water, I'd like to get the sea one directly but now I don't know where to find it, I'm a bit far away.

You can mix it yourself with table (or sea) salt from the store. Cheesy

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 05, 2022, 03:38:19 PM

Quote from: n0nce on December 02, 2022, 07:05:01 PM

The one exception to this would actually be fire or salt water (if you live near the sea); because house fires and floods are not normally occuring events, but could happen.

Depends on what country you live, but some regions are often affected with this.
For example if you live in Florida that hurricanes and floods are happening every year, just look what happened with Tesla crap cars and salt sea water this year.
Lithium batteries are reacting with salt water (they create chemical reaction) and turning into literal bombs with fire that are very hard to put down with regular water.

That's why I said that fire and salt water are tests that make sense; anything more extreme (like exposure to acids) is highly unlikely to actually happen to your seed backups.
I loved your very 'graphic' description of Tesla cars exploding like bombs. What makes it funnier is that it's accurate. Grin

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 05, 2022, 03:38:19 PM

Quote from: hymperion on December 03, 2022, 02:29:16 AM

yes, I'm only missing the one with salt water, I'd like to get the sea one directly but now I don't know where to find it, I'm a bit far away.

Italy is surrounded by sea last time I checked, but you can order it online and pay with Bitcoin Cheesy

For real; people buy bottled salt water?

dkbit98

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Quote from: n0nce on December 02, 2022, 07:05:01 PM

The one exception to this would actually be fire or salt water (if you live near the sea); because house fires and floods are not normally occuring events, but could happen.

Depends on what country you live, but some regions are often affected with this.
For example if you live in Florida that hurricanes and floods are happening every year, just look what happened with Tesla crap cars and salt sea water this year.
Lithium batteries are reacting with salt water (they create chemical reaction) and turning into literal bombs with fire that are very hard to put down with regular water.

Quote from: hymperion on December 03, 2022, 02:29:16 AM

yes, I'm only missing the one with salt water, I'd like to get the sea one directly but now I don't know where to find it, I'm a bit far away.

Italy is surrounded by sea last time I checked, but you can order it online and pay with Bitcoin Cheesy

hymperion

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yes, I'm only missing the one with salt water, I'd like to get the sea one directly but now I don't know where to find it, I'm a bit far away.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Welsh on December 02, 2022, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: dkbit98 on November 29, 2022, 05:04:14 PM

Here is one example of mostly used grades of stainless steel, so better check out what type is used in your washers:
https://www.mchoneind.com/stainless-steel-grades-chart

The only problem with this, unless you test it yourself you're taking the manufacturers word on what grade it is. Ideally, you'd buy a test batch, and run through your risks, and do actual physical tests on them. Even then, you can't guarantee their entire inventory is made with the same standard. So, there's always going to be a degree of risk.

I took a look at some of my washers I had handy, and there's no indication whatsoever what was used in the manufacturing process. So, I have no clue what grade they are. These are washers that are used on a industry that we all use though, and should be manufactured to a decent quality.

In my opinion, these experiments are amazing, but in the end, for 99.9% of people it should be fine taking the best material they can find & afford and then let the backups sit for a while. You should check them (condition, accessibility) from time to time anyway. If you notice they catch a lot of rust quickly or start sticking together (for whatever reason), you should be able to spot it quickly enough and redo them.

The one exception to this would actually be fire or salt water (if you live near the sea); because house fires and floods are not normally occuring events, but could happen.

Welsh

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Quote from: dkbit98 on November 29, 2022, 05:04:14 PM

Here is one example of mostly used grades of stainless steel, so better check out what type is used in your washers:
https://www.mchoneind.com/stainless-steel-grades-chart

The only problem with this, unless you test it yourself you're taking the manufacturers word on what grade it is. Ideally, you'd buy a test batch, and run through your risks, and do actual physical tests on them. Even then, you can't guarantee their entire inventory is made with the same standard. So, there's always going to be a degree of risk.

I took a look at some of my washers I had handy, and there's no indication whatsoever what was used in the manufacturing process. So, I have no clue what grade they are. These are washers that are used on a industry that we all use though, and should be manufactured to a decent quality.

hymperion

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hello, in the acid I can keep them as long as we want it's not a problem, even a month.

Since salt is not stainless steel, I can't find any useful results on that table. I just have to add some salt to the jar with just the water.

dkbit98

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Quote from: hymperion on November 29, 2022, 05:49:41 AM

the acid reacts with the zinc. let's see what happens in the long run.

How long do you plan on keeping washers in this acid liquid?
One more idea is to do long term test with salt water, some stainless steel is affected by sea and salt water and corrosion can happen for cheaper stuff.
This could happen if there is no molybdenum in stainless steel mix, but we never know this until we test it Wink

Here is one example of mostly used grades of stainless steel, so better check out what type is used in your washers:
https://www.mchoneind.com/stainless-steel-grades-chart

hymperion

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even if the mystery has been resolved Cheesy

I edit the post with the full image, I used the thumbnails to avoid visually polluting the page.

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 12. (Read 7364 times)