Topic: Slot Games' RTP, variable?? - page 2. (Read 1259 times)

But I've been always thinking that that's what regulators are doing. They have both, time and money, and it's their job to verify the fairness, in our case the stable, unchanging RTP, no matter what.

For example, I heard that licencing authorities use an algorithm to predetermine the result of all spins on a slot, within, say, 10 million spins, to make sure the RTP is the same as stated by the slot provider. Was it just a rumor, or are they really doing this?

Okey guys, think I will take a break here from posting. It really doesn't make any sense to respond to bots. 

As a player, I think that one has to ask all these kinds of questions and those of us who don't know much about the subject must take a break and put all our interest to learn from these concepts because even if you are not a complete veteran, it is important because here you put the money. I know that I am not going to have a completely technical knowledge based on programming because that is not my strong point, but if I know more about the games that I play, that for me would give me an idea of ​​what I can achieve and thus not be worried if in one My play went wrong because a casino robbed me or not, I didn't know what an RTP was or what it was for, and there are many players who don't know what an RTP is either and they still play.

I think that paxmao's is just a digression within the topic, as we are focusing on the technical details, in order to add the idea that for most gamblers it is not important whether it resets or not, because they will continue gambling due to other factors that they perceive as more important (even if they are not).

Back on topic, in the case of physical slot machines we have all heard that they are "hot" when there is a long time since the last jackpot, and at least in my country it is typical to see Chinese citizens playing because they know how to guess the point of the pattern for the return to player rate in a certain moment.

I am not any expert, but my intuition about the RTP technology is that this may have been simpler in the past, but in the modern times even the physical machines differ due to variables like who is the manufacturer, the machine model, and in certain cases even machine-by-machine programming. Not to say in online slots, where mechanics could vary even more easily in time.

To finish, in the cases in which provably fairness is real, we couldn't really say that the machine is "hot" anymore, and it goes against the classical perception we all have about the mechanics of these machines; so to me the provability is not a point as critical as in other games, like dices, coin tosses, roulette, etc.

What? Have you even read this topic?

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

Yeah, this is a good sample how manipulation can be done. For me personally, I had doubts about one particular game provider with patterns as in your sample above.



Sadly, but true. In fact, there is a way to verify the fairness. But, it costs. Both time & money.

Yes, tRTP itself doesn't mean it's provably fair. Or let's say fair. 99% tRTP slot game can be rogued, and 92% tRTP can be a fair game. And vice versa. Those are different terms.


This shouldn't be the case with modern random online slots. I am emphasizing the words "shouldn't" and "random" and "modern slots". The slot game doesn't have to normalize RTP. (in the sense its forced/manipulated). It's in the law of big numbers that will naturally normalize RTP. Bigger the number of bets/spins/trials, it's closer to tRTP. Closer to the mean. Its just math. Of course, it also depends on the variance of the game.


I know where are you coming from, but again, this scenario will naturally happen over millions/billions of spins. Especially with high variance slots. When you see a lucky 10,000xbet winner, yeah, there are hundreds of losers. My point is that slot game doesn't have to be "forced" to reach RTP until the game recovers the money.

That's why you will rarely see GGR in minus in medium-to-high trafficked online casinos. Simply because bets/spins/trials reaches millions/billions. In small casinos, it's not uncommon to see monthly GGR in minus.

Online casino owners shouldn't worry at all about winners/losers'. Or better to say deposits/cash-outs. And casinos that know what they are doing, are not worried about huge cash-out. It's actually great advertisement. All they should care about is number of bets/spins/trials. The bigger number of spins, its closer to the tRTP. Still, not many people in the industry realize that. One huge cashout, and panic taster is on :-)

Just as a side note: I am not saying that there is no possibility that some rogue game provider use "force" mechanic in order to manipulate RTP in the terms of RTP recovery after big win. I mean, we have seen it all, from online casinos, game providers, affiliates and players. My point is that there is no need for this kind of an action. House always win in the long term.

 Some providers like BGaming started to made provably fair games but has abort this !

 I think this question of manipulation of RTP (or RTP stats) it can occur in a more subtile way.. for the calculation and showing the stats: if there is two users who play a rigged game, one lose his bets with high stakes and the other double his bettings with a minimal stakes, then the global RTP stats will show the average (for the same number of bets).



  The question is they making the speech to selling us these (licenses.. licensing RNGs.. etc.) as a warranty..  while in fact there is no way to verify the fairness they're running behind.. we have no other choice than just trusting them.

  
 An example, for Pragmatic (Wheel of fortune) based games.. where there is a dealer spin the wheel to get a result, I noticed in certains periods that all dealers don't spin the way hard enough to making the wheel do just between 1 and 2' spins in average..
the problem this way, is that the dealer can easily monitor to target the spin the avoid those majors wins that are  for some present in just one single position for 50+ positions ..



 PS..  It seems about the game "Sweet Bonanza" that is been caped to a maximum win ~21,000×.. I just noticed that in the descriptions.. but I still think/have that feeling it is/ or can get rigged..

Here is the trick... RTP doesn't mean it's provably fair, and each time the game hits a jackpot, then the game has to normalize the RTP, and that means users will have a losing streak until the RTP gets down to 94% or the percent the game has. But here the trick is the multiple for the same game... that means if one hits the jackpot. other 300 users will lose until the game recovers the money. And that's why we can't verify each roll in the slots machines, because they manipulate the game until recover, and that's a secure way to always win for the casino.

For provably fair games they can win the jackpot back to back with the right luck, and with that kind of games the house not always win, sometimes users with good look will take more profit than the house.

And vice versa, you might be hit the jackpot even though there are just user who hit the jackpot before your bet. If your chance is exactly like that, better don't play slot or it will just ruin your bankroll. People thinking they can always win in slot game or if they can survive for long time, which they think have beaten it, which obviously not.
To any people out there, don't easily believe with someone posted he hitted the jackpot, you never know whats behind them.

No. This shouldn't be the case with any truly random slot game. Any past event doesn't have influence on future event.

In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.

This is very interesting to me, actually, because it's very hard to find a reliable info on this subject. Can it mean that when people are saying that if a big Jackpot won on a slot, you shouldn't expect another big win on this slot any time soon? I mean, how does this fit with the notion that "all spins are independent" and stuff?

I really didn't know about that case, it's something curious, it's that the amount must have been astronomical, but I imagine it's because he took it with a lot of RTP, for me this RTP is a very important number, for me it defines many things, now Well, if I understand correctly the RTOP when it is very high, then the pay is low, for a low RTP the profit is low, right? There should always be a great balance in all this, for this reason it is something that I am always interested in knowing, I am a very active slot machine player, and this type of thread is learned a lot, with respect to what is said about the RTP is something that some casinos take into account and can be a source of competition between them.

 Yes, just to bo sure I am clear enough..
 
 Just the possibility that an extra big win can theorically really occur mean that it meed something to cover/pay it!


 For example the game Jammin Jars run in someway similar to the Sweet Bonanza tumbling,  and they capping the maximum win per round/bet to about 20,000×.

 Just to get an idea about the (magnitude),
some NOLIMIT games are capped to a maximum 66,000 × per single bet, and the chances to thats occur are about 1 on 18 millions.. like for winning the french lotto!

Legit casinos display the RTP of their slot games which is usually the real deal and they don't try and cheat their customers since they are aware of the fact that cheating could end their business in a flash.

On the other hand, scam sites do tweak their slot game RTPs and will never reveal this truth for obvious reasons. This is why research is crucial when choosing sites to gamble in.

Related to Relax - an update. Unfortunately, Relax Gaming introduced lower RTP settings model (around 94%) earlier this year. Bad news, since Relax is a top-notch provider. If you are playing Relax slots, be sure to double check slot RTP to be sure its a default/top one.

Hi @Danydee, sry just catching up with this thread/topic. In short, the answer is yes. They do take percentage of the edge.

There might be different models, but in the end, they take % of GGR. For example, 10% GGR (gross gaming revenue).

Now I see what you meant to say. Thanks for the explanation!

Indeed, theoretically, you can be rolling forever without any win, and, of course, the opposite can happen. Yet in reality we don't know such cases, right? I mean, even something close to "forever", like 100k winning spins, this has never happened to anyone.

And still I think that if someone hit a very long winning streak, it can't affect medium returns because those things are totally unrelated.

 I found it, here is a discussion thread about it,,
the user edited his posts and talked about a settlement.. what bitcasino denied and talk about fraudulent manipulation of the game.

 https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcasinoio-171btc-winner-discussion-5260832