Slot Games' RTP, variable?? - page 5.

qwertyup23

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Quote from: ralle14 on February 21, 2022, 04:25:56 AM

I'm not sure but I remember reading a similar discussion back then as the player tried to point out there was one casino that had a slightly higher payout compared to another casino even though the game is the same.

I think one of the slot providers that lets you do this is Booming or Betsoft, not sure if it's both of them but i'm sure that the name of the provider is starting with the letter "B" since these are the providers that most casinos have back then.

This is interesting- was the discussion backed with evidence and facts? In addition, did the gambling websites disclose such information to the public or was it purely based on his gathered data and information? I am curious as to how the methodology of such research went as this can either make or break a gambling website's profit in the long-run.

As regards to OP's question, I really doubt that a gambling website would disclose such important piece of information to the public. Preferably, slot machines that have high RTP are the ones to be preferred if you plan on gambling long-term. But this could definitely hurt the gambling business as this would be prejudicial on their part.

Kakmakr

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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

The way I understand it is the following....

The 3rd Party Service Provider will give the casino the option to choose which RTP it wants them to configure for the game that they are hosting. Then that Slot will run on the RTP that the provider configured for that casino.

Some casino's offer the option to show you what RTP are currently configured for that Slot, like Bitcasino.io / Stake.com ... and/or you can check while you are within some of the Slots.

So to answer your question... Yes, the RTP can be re-adjusted ...but it is done on the 3rd Party Service provider side... and not by the casino. Now, this is applicable to the third party Slots.... but some casinos have their own original games... and with these games, the casino can change the RTP as they like. Roll Eyes

mu_enrico

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^No Limit city is known to have two versions of its games:
Regular with ~96% RTP and DX-1 with ~94% RTP

Normally, the casino will display "DX-1" or only use the best/desired version.

Danydee

legendary

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Searching for a game, and guess what !?
I literally found two versions of it, maybe could think that is just a displaying bug, but:

After looking on games infos of each version it is been confirmed

Saint-loup

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Quote from: ultraBTC on February 26, 2022, 07:08:46 PM

Quote from: seoincorporation on February 26, 2022, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: ultraBTC on February 22, 2022, 09:40:49 AM

...

This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

The thing is, for extremely high-variance slot games (like this one), simulation goes in billions of spins. (You will notice that in this particular game, the chance of highest payout is 1:4million spins/without buying a free spins feature). So with such a high variance, the sample needs to go in billions to approach the theoretical mean. Less is probably required to be within SD (Standard Deviation). It's the Law of Large Numbers.

For low/middle variance slots, it's in terms of millions of spins or less depending on volatility.

For example, take a look of this LIVE RTP sample:

You will notice drastic variations in a short time frame (today, yesterday). But, when the sample gets huge (semester), it's pretty much within the theoretical mean.

79.5% of RTP while it's supposed to be 93% that's a pretty high gap indeed, and I'm not talking about the 23% of the day... The volatility of slots seems to be way higher than the one of table games (100% instead of 98% here), then people should be aware and educated about that. If they are not ready to bet small stakes and to spend big amounts of time, their bank roll can be wipe out by volatility and they can face big losses.

ultraBTC

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Quote from: seoincorporation on February 26, 2022, 09:43:22 AM

This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

Nah, I don't have problems with that & sharing some information that might be useful to players and the community. My point is that players should be educated and decide/choose where are the best chances to play.

ultraBTC

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Quote from: seoincorporation on February 26, 2022, 09:43:22 AM

Quote from: ultraBTC on February 22, 2022, 09:40:49 AM

...

This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

The thing is, for extremely high-variance slot games (like this one), simulation goes in billions of spins. (You will notice that in this particular game, the chance of highest payout is 1:4million spins/without buying a free spins feature). So with such a high variance, the sample needs to go in billions to approach the theoretical mean. Less is probably required to be within SD (Standard Deviation). It's the Law of Large Numbers.

For low/middle variance slots, it's in terms of millions of spins or less depending on volatility.

For example, take a look of this LIVE RTP sample:

You will notice drastic variations in a short time frame (today, yesterday). But, when the sample gets huge (semester), it's pretty much within the theoretical mean.

rijaljun

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Quote from: ultraBTC on February 25, 2022, 05:10:08 PM

Of course rijaljun. Will make update here about the separate thread.

Alright, thank you for that! I am sure that many could learn a thing or two from this thread and from yours that will be soon posted. I’ll be checking this thread and your account as well from time to time. Hoping to hear from you real soon.

seoincorporation

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Quote from: ultraBTC on February 22, 2022, 09:40:49 AM

...

This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

ultraBTC

member

Activity: 83

Merit: 20

Quote from: rijaljun on February 24, 2022, 04:30:45 AM

Quote from: ultraBTC on February 23, 2022, 07:25:41 PM

-snip-

I really like this type of threads because it will make you think about the sites to choose to play and deal with. I am honestly not so educated about this topic, and through reading the replies here, made me realize of the misconceptions that I have been holding to for a long time now. I hope that you will update here about your separate thread @ultraBTC.

Of course rijaljun. Will make update here about the separate thread.

rijaljun

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Quote from: ultraBTC on February 23, 2022, 07:25:41 PM

-snip-

I really like this type of threads because it will make you think about the sites to choose to play and deal with. I am honestly not so educated about this topic, and through reading the replies here, made me realize of the misconceptions that I have been holding to for a long time now. I hope that you will update here about your separate thread @ultraBTC.

ultraBTC

member

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Merit: 20

Quote from: seoincorporation on February 20, 2022, 12:16:09 PM

Hello Danydee

I don't think the casinos can make public this information because a variable RTP would mean they are rigged.

To clear this up. Different RTP setting doesn't mean that slot game/online casino is rigged. The online slot is/should be random operating on 97% RTP or 89% RTP. (Take online sportsbook as an example. Offering lower odds than the competition is not rigged as per default.)

Btw, some licenses DO require showing RTP info publicly and on every single slot/casino game (help/info file on particular slot).

Software providers are businesses offering their services to different online casinos & markets. Different markets/countries/licenses have different demands & operating costs. It is up to the management of online casinos to decide which business model to choose and calculate costs VS profits.

On the other hand, it's up to players to choose where are the best chances to play. But the fact is that a few percentages of lower RTP settings can affect players' play-time drastically in the long term.

I will make a separate in-depth thread on this subject when I catch some extra time.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: ultraBTC on February 22, 2022, 09:40:49 AM

Quote from: BrutalFive on February 22, 2022, 08:22:36 AM

I think in theory it is impossible, moreover, the games are certified. All slots that you access on casinos websites are provided via API. This means that the casino is a kind of an intermediary between you and software producers.

Hi BrutalFive,

The question was if RTP of slot games can be adapted to casino preferences. Well, let's say not adapted but the FACT is that casinos CAN choose RTP settings if they are available on software provider's side.
Look for example, the latest release from the Nolimit City game provider:

There are two RTP settings options: 96.09% & 94.13%
Some providers have more RTP settings options, like Pragmatic Play (3 RTP settings). And some, don't have options of lower RTP settings, just default/top one.

Hope this helps.

You seem to have very accurate and professional informations, usually not shared with the users. May I ask you how do you get all these informations? Did you find them on other forums or blogs (could you tell me which ones please I'm interested in the subject) or you are working for an online casino? Thank you very much for your informations.

ultraBTC

member

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Merit: 20

Quote from: BrutalFive on February 22, 2022, 08:22:36 AM

Quote from: Danydee on February 20, 2022, 11:09:03 AM

Hi

Si it is true that RTP of slot games can be adapted to the casinos preferences ??

do all providers do this ?

And what about when slots are accessed directly on the casino website, here anything can happen, things like avoiding use of RNG too.

Thanks to everybody

I think in theory it is impossible, moreover, the games are certified. All slots that you access on casinos websites are provided via API. This means that the casino is a kind of an intermediary between you and software producers.

Hi BrutalFive,

The question was if RTP of slot games can be adapted to casino preferences. Well, let's say not adapted but the FACT is that casinos CAN choose RTP settings if they are available on software provider's side.
Look for example, the latest release from the Nolimit City game provider:

There are two RTP settings options: 96.09% & 94.13%
Some providers have more RTP settings options, like Pragmatic Play (3 RTP settings). And some, don't have options of lower RTP settings, just default/top one.

Hope this helps.

BrutalFive

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: Danydee on February 20, 2022, 11:09:03 AM

Hi

Si it is true that RTP of slot games can be adapted to the casinos preferences ??

do all providers do this ?

And what about when slots are accessed directly on the casino website, here anything can happen, things like avoiding use of RNG too.

Thanks to everybody

I think in theory it is impossible, moreover, the games are certified. All slots that you access on casinos websites are provided via API. This means that the casino is a kind of an intermediary between you and software producers.

Saint-loup

legendary

Activity: 2604

Merit: 2353

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Danydee on February 20, 2022, 11:09:03 AM

Si it is true that RTP of slot games can be adapted to the casinos preferences ??

do all providers do this ?

As far as I know that's not the case. I am not an expert on slot games, but I noticed that several big online casinos all use the same slot games. The games are developed by third parties and have a fixed return to player ratio. With the help of Google we can find RTP for the slot game before playing. The casino itself has no real impact on the game, they just provide the platform and customers for it. Also the casinos don't need to change the RTP, because all the slots are already profitable for the casino. The longer we play the closer we will get to the expected value, which is negative for us gamblers. Did you have a streak of bad luck?

Did you read the posts of the OP before replying and asking him if he rather had a streak of bad luck bro? Did you even read the merited posts of this one single page thread? Huh

You should be more careful because DT members have started to red tag the shitposts of this section. Look at that please https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=898552
In regards to RTP settings it's not the first time people are talking about this matter here, it's a pretty well known fact actually

Quote from: Saint-loup on June 02, 2021, 06:35:19 AM

[...]
and the team gave a similar answer on Trustpilot recently

Quote

We're sorry you haven't found the results you were looking for on Stake. Gambling can be volatile sometimes.

At Stake, all games have the highest RTP settings. This can actually be verified within the game. I suggest potentially contacting the providers themselves if you're feeling uneasy about the RTP offered. This is handled by them & they can safely assure you the same & that our settings are indeed lining up with what we offer.
[...]

https://www.trustpilot.com/reviews/60b5a3def9f4870a94b25e50

seoincorporation

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Quote from: Danydee on February 20, 2022, 02:25:48 PM

Here's the point,
I've read somewhere here ( https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/top-5-slots-games-to-play-in-2022-5383777 ) that RTP may vary from casino to another and can be adapted to the casinos wants ! In addition in some casinos software is executed under (the website/casino URL), normally it should redirects to the game provider servers, so you know you are running the game from the original makers, but running the game under another (Interface if we could say) there's no more, or any insurance there, and everything can happen.

I agree with you in that, and that's why we should be careful when we select a casino to gamble our coins, If you know that some casinos have a variable RTP just stay away from them and share the message with the community. We always appreciate any warning about new scams schemes.

As I mentioned in the first, for me if a site has an RTP variable, that only means it's rigged. I'm not saying users will never win, I say the house will always win and no luck will be involved in that.

iv4n

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Quote from: ultraBTC on February 21, 2022, 06:54:11 AM

Quote from: Danydee on February 21, 2022, 05:49:18 AM

I think Betsoft do, drastical difference frome one casino to another !

Problems with Betsoft are some serious issues in the past. Although, must admit that they do have some very nice slot products in the terms of 3D graphic, animations & story, trust issue still stands up.

Some years back, there was a jackpot scandal where progressive jackpots weren't paying out at all. (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-betsoft-scam-and-how-they-have-been-ripping-you-off-1531232)
And although a decade ago, there was a scandal with completely rigged Keno play at Absolute Poker.

I remember Jackson and his incredible win with 5 yachts! If I remember correctly he made a deal with Betcoin.ag and Betsoft and he got some money in the end, but not his full win?! Am I right?!

I also remember one small casino in the hood with a few slot machines...you open it from the back and with a key you can set up RTP! As you said already, some providers have fixed RTP for all casinos, probably their policy, but some are different... for already mentioned reasons:

Quote from: mu_enrico on February 21, 2022, 06:19:39 AM

Casinos aren't required to set its game to the highest RTP since each has a different strategy. For example: more bonus, more rakeback, better wagering race prize, etc. They can surely use the "excess profits" from lower RTP. BUT, some bad one just straight profiting more and not giving back to the players.

Exactly this! Some casinos are "fair", and some bad ones just wish for more profit and they don't care about giving back...

ultraBTC

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Quote from: Danydee on February 21, 2022, 05:49:18 AM

I think Betsoft do, drastical difference frome one casino to another !

Problems with Betsoft are some serious issues in the past. Although, must admit that they do have some very nice slot products in the terms of 3D graphic, animations & story, trust issue still stands up.

Some years back, there was a jackpot scandal where progressive jackpots weren't paying out at all. (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-betsoft-scam-and-how-they-have-been-ripping-you-off-1531232)
And although a decade ago, there was a scandal with completely rigged Keno play at Absolute Poker.

mu_enrico

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YES, it's called RTP variance, more explanation here: Slots 103: More In-Depth about Return To Player (RTP)

Casinos aren't required to set its game to the highest RTP since each has a different strategy. For example: more bonus, more rakeback, better wagering race prize, etc. They can surely use the "excess profits" from lower RTP. BUT, some bad one just straight profiting more and not giving back to the players.

Topic: Slot Games' RTP, variable?? - page 5. (Read 1333 times)