Topic: Sportsbet.io's English Premier League Football Pool Discussion Thread - page 518. (Read 141313 times)

We are not talking about what would be a successful season - I agree that there are 2 major trophies for them, they already lost one. We are talking about the flop of the season, you cannot be a flop if you are 2nd in the league, at least not in my opinion. Liverpool is a great team, they had a great start, they lost 2 out of the last 100+ points. What they are doing is insane, you just cannot compete with that.
Yes, City is a monster team, yes, they spend like crazy. They should not be so far behind, but I will repeat again - they lost 2 first 11 defenders at the same time for a long period. Will we say Klopp is a flop if we let Salah and Mane go to AFCON next season and we're 10 points behind City next season?

In my opinion we can say that their season is not really great so far, but to say he's flopped? I think that's childish and brutally oversimplified.


No, Pep did build the best Barcelona team ever from the ground up. He changed everything there and no, he does not get enough credit for it because it was Barcelona. I can understand what you are saying, I just do not think that you cannot be deemed great if your first job is at a huge company (club).


I do not think he is the greatest ever. I think he is great though. I also think that Leicester winning the Premier league is probably the most unexpected thing in the history of football and I still think Ranieri is a mediocre manager despite that.


It simply does not work like that. Great managers create styles of play. Look how differently Klopp's teams play from Guardiola's. Mourinho's style with 3 centre mids destroyed the Premiership when he arrived. Wenger's 422 that he came with to England did the same. Klopp's striker behind wingers system is ripping the world apart currently. Simeone's fighting style brought huge success to a team that should not have been able to challenge Barcelona or Real on paper. Guardiola's Barcelona had over 1000 passes per game, but the most impressive part of that team was reclaiming the ball that he led to perfection. Murinho's Real was the best counterattacking team in Europe at one point, same as his Inter team with which he won the CL. They all have their styles and they are incomparable to each other.

Yup...  Pep def knows it too (judging from what he says).  It's the CL or bust.  It's what they (the oilers, Soriano and Txiki Berigistain) brought Pep in for.

Mourinhio likely won't either or any other manager in the world. If Pep went to Spurs would he win the PL or would their style of play radically change? Would Kane start moving like Messi or turn into Aguero? I doubt it. Spurs will likely always just be a top 5 team as the competition is just so strong right now. I mean, they might win something eventually and they came close a few seasons ago but they would have had a good of a chance as any with Poch and now they'll probably just do what every team does and go through new managers every season or two when they don't win anything.


I didn't say he was better, I just said it's a bigger achievement which I think it is. Do you honestly think winning the PL with one of the best teams in the world is a bigger achievement than winning it with the team who were odds on favourite to be relegated? If a person goes straight out of business school to the CEO of McDonalds would you say he's the greatest businessman and one of the best because he's in charge of an insanely successful billion dollar company? Neither has built anything from the ground up, Pep just took over a team that was built by the best money can buy and then done the inevitable. And Fergie built Man United into what they became, that's the difference. If Fergie took over United at their height of success and had money to throw at the best players then I'd be saying the same thing about him. It also took Fergie several seasons before he started to win things. Managers don't even get the chance to do that these days.


Well of course there's always going to be people talking about things they know nothing about but there's also just going to be difference of opinion. You can think Pep is the greatest football manager in the world and I can think he's the most overrated just like I can think Leicester winning the PL is better than City doing it and you can think the opposite, but neither of us is right or wrong.


And that's why I think people put too much emphasis on managers. Winning things with world class teams is almost inevitable. You'd have to be completely incompetent or have the worse luck ever to not do so. I don't think managers have that much of an influence over the style of play either. Messi plays like Messi not because of who's managing him and no manager is going to make him move any different or run any faster. Assemble the best teams in the world and nine times out of ten they'll win stuff regardless of who's at the helm.


Yeah, easier said than done, but it just shows you what effect the financial fair play rules have on teams now when they can't just go out and buy anyone they want. If these had of been implemented ten years ago City would likely still be an average team and definitely wouldn't be where they are now.


I was gonna say that seemed too soon and the storms are still raging here so it'd likely get called off again.


Well it would certainly help, but winning the CL is incredibly difficult with any team so I don't think it's all or nothing. City winning nothing at all this year would be pretty bad though. I think they'll likely win the two domestic cups though unless he puts out shit teams and concentrates on the CL.

Agree with toke, surely Pep has to win the CL for this season to be a success for them. He’s got the most expensive squad ever assembled in football. The FA Cup & League Cup are second rate trophies these days. If you’re at a top club & paid big money you get judged on your league position & CL performance. This has to be one of the most pathetic title defences I’ve seen. I know Liverpool are flying but City have just fallen to pieces.

Yep , unconfirmed at the moment , but no other details as of yet.
This mid season break is causing a lot of headaches!

Yes I am!  They didn't spend all that money to be conceding and be second in the league (this early).  And I don't think winning the FA Cup and the League Cup would save City's season.  It has to be the CL. 

The funny thing is Klopp could win it back to back and win the real treble.  None of that 'English treble' bs...

As far as I can see it’s unconfirmed that 19th Feb is the date it’ll played. It looks likely that’ll be the date but it’s not confirmed at this time.


It was initially thought that the Premier League were very unlikely to break their own guidelines so the re-scheduled game was unlikely to be played before the end of the break.

However, that might not be the case as the game could be rescheduled for Wednesday, February 19.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.football.london/west-ham-united-fc/news/west-ham-news-man-city-17725798.amp

There’s nothing official regarding a date on West Ham’s website either....yet!!!!

Seems like the Man City v West Ham match is rescheduled for Wednesday 19th Feb, NOT the 12th , which is what Superbru are displaying .

Poch would not have gotten anywhere with them. They were already way above expectations, a crash was inevitable.  Nonetheless, playing above the expected level for such a long period of time makes him a GREAT coach, even if he stayed, kept them at the same level but without winning a trophy for the next 5 years.
Ranieri better than Guardiola? Ok, where does that lead us? Otto Rehhagel better than Alex Ferguson? Because Ferguson would not have won Euro 2004 with Greece. If we take arguments like these, Miroslav Klose is the best striker in the universe and Otto Rehhagel is the best coach in the world.
Ranieri WAS at the squads of a great level throughout most of his carreer. He never won anything else than a crazy title with Leicester - he should be really held high because of that but on Guardiola's level? Let alone on a higher one?


Oh, they are allowed their opinions, sure. I really don't care if I'm right or not and that was not the point. The point is that if Aguero doesn't score in the next 10 games people who watched 7 games of football in their whole life will start calling him crap, there will be more and more of them, people who work in marketing will say 'fuck it, Aguero is starting to become bad marketing for the club, let's sell him and bring in Kane'. Then Kane will score 5 in the next 5 and he will be great. Until he doesn't score again. Social media is full of idiots loudly expressing opinions, without any arguments - just blindly following the horde.
Regarding coaches - yes, Pep was slowly schooled to become a top manager. What's wrong with that? Would Iniesta become who he is if he played as a teenager in Brighton? Of course not, they would have told him he is too short for football.
After Guardiola who won everything multiple seasons in a row Barcelona took Vilanova (also schooled the same way as Guardiola) and Martino and they won nothing in the next few years. I guess their captains fucked up with their team selections.


Nope, I'm saying it rarely happens that a manager wins something without a world-class team. Pep took his style and massively improved both Barcelona and City, Bayern not so much. He is getting most out of his players, but if you want to take the maximum from Rory Delap and Danny Higginbotham, then you take Sam Allardyce or Alan Pardew, because their style of football is suited to these players. Guardiola cannot teach Victor Wanyama how to play football and he does not want to play football in which Victor Wanyama needs to play. Pardew needs Victor Wanyama because Rodri and Gundogan do not tackle, jump and run enough for his type of football.


He wanted to, they cannot spend much because of Financial fair play restrictions - they are already under strict surveillance. He wanted Maguire but was forced out of the deal.

He knew Kompany was leaving & really should have looked into replacing him really. As the captain he was more than just a player, he was their leader & really helped carry them over the line.

I think Pep needs to have a good CL run this season, they brought him in to win that yet he’s never got past the 1/4 final with City.

Pochettino should have never been sacked. I find it pretty disgusting that it's become the standard to just dump managers as soon as they lose a handful of games or they don't magically win the league that season. Spurs have incredibly tough competition and Poch did very well with Spurs in the grand scheme of things and he should have been allowed to carry on and who knows where he mighty have got them. Claudio Ranieri was another one that never should have been sacked. Even if he miraculously got them relegated to the Championship - which almost certainly wouldn't have happened - then then they should have stuck with him and tried to get them back to the PL. I'd also say what he achieved is a far bigger accomplishment that anything Pep has done and if Ranieri went into the squads Pep did he'd likely have done just as good. People put too much emphasis on managers these days or give them the credit when they win stuff but it's the squads they've got to work with that win or lose things.


I think people are allowed opinions and they're not wrong just because you disagree with them, but how does one become a top-class manager in the first place? It's usually not because they built themselves up to be so and made miraculous wins. Pep was shoehorned into one of the best teams in the world as his first job. Then went to Bayern who pretty much win everything. Then City which at the time were arguably the best team in the world. The chances of him failing at those sort of clubs is very slim. You could probably not even do anything and just let your captain choose the team and take over training and they'd win things.
 

He doesn't have to and they likely never would, but if a manager was truly great he should be able to get the best out of his players at any team. To me what you're essentially saying is pep can't win anything unless he has a world class team full of some of the best players in the world, which doesn't make him a good manager in my opinion. Who couldn't win something with City, Barca or Bayern?  Why can't he take his style to any side and massively improve them or get them to play his way? I'd just really like to see a manager build a squad from little to nothing or win something with an underdog before I'm going to call them great but winning stuff with the big boys isn't an achievement to me. It's almost an expectation or a foregone conclusion so much so that it's a shock or a scandal when they don't win something.


Contracts mean very little these days. Clubs can usually sack you whenever they want and if the City board members decide second place just isn't good enough and/or Juve are begging for him he might just decide to leave. I hope he stays on for another season though. The gap is so big now that only a fresh start can give City the boost they need to remain competitive to challenge for the title.

It just doesn't work like that. Pochettino made a huge, huge job with Tottenham, they laugh at him and call him a man that 'almost won something'. If Guardiola (or Klopp) takes over at Spurs and doesn't win a trophy in the first 2 seasons, everybody will say 'they lost it'.
We live in a crazy, Twitter-driven world where everybody is entitled to an opinion and 99.9% of these opinions are wrong. I don't understand why should a top coach go to Bologna to prove a point? He cannot prove a point at Bologna because Bologna's players cannot play the style that Guardiola demands. It's the same as that joke 'could Messi do it on a rainy night in Stoke'? Yup, he could for Barcelona. And no, he could not for Stoke against Barcelona. That's why top managers go to top teams to be paired with top players.

Regarding Guardiola - his contract runs out in summer of 2021 and I expect him to stay at City.

Yeah, you can't call a team coming second in the PL a flop, and who know's what other cups they'll win. I agree with trofo about Watford though. They've actually got a pretty good team and have had some great results, just not enough of them. They definitely don't deserve to be fighting relegation. Not really sure what's gone on there to be honest.


I think he's overrated or hasn't really done anything to warrant all the praise. If Guardiola leaves just because they haven't won the PL this year then I'll lose a lot of respect for him. He should stay and fight for the title next season. At least next season it might be a bit more competitive and beating Liverpool to the title will be at least an achievement now because they're so strong and are looking unbeatable so far. I mean, where's he going to go if he leaves City? He'll only go to another huge team like Juve who are almost going to win the league and who can't win the league with them? Same goes for Barca and City, but to run off the first time they don't win something is questionable. I wish these so called great managers would go to a shitty team and get them promoted and then win something major then they'd be considered great in my opinion but they just go from one of the biggest teams in the world to another and that's not really an achievement. You've got to be practically incompetent or have the worse line-ups ever not to win anything with the likes of Barca, Bayern, City, PSG, etc etc. 

Come on, Guardiola is changing the perception of football. He is a truly dominant coach, one of the greats, you can also say that Klopp ran away from Dortmund if you twist things like that.
He had 2 first-choice centre backs on long-term injuries throughout the first batch of games, he could not navigate through it and it cost him the title. Now he has to reorganize priorities but his team still outscored Liverpool's.

In my opinion no way is this season a flop, it might be called disappointing or something similar but a flop? Nope, I just don't see it.

If we look back, Pep leaves Barca when things going wrong. He leaves Bayern when things going wrong. I have not seen him perform a generation shift, now they have a chance, few old but important Man. City players finish his career or going to the weaker leagues or teams, he needs to find proper replacements and to maintain quality of performance.
frenzied buying best and expensive players', success is not guaranteed.

I can argue for both sides regarding Pep as a flop Can't really decide it myself.
As Cryptofrka said they are second in the league, alive in all other competitions, and their main priority is Champions League for sure. It is understandable if they lose an odd game here and there since they know it they can't be champions anymore and they also know that a fucking miracle would need to happen if they didn't finish second. On the other side as it was also pointed out earlier City has maybe the best squad in Europe and loosing the chance to fight for league trophy this early in the season is sort of under performing. Liverpool was brilliant but City should have stayed closer.

I guess Pep could be called a flop only if he doesn't get at least to champions league semi finals.

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United and Arsenal are awful but I wouldn't call their managers a flop either. They brought this more by bad management decisions in the last few years than by the latest coaches. Lampard is actually doing a decent job with promoting young players and he is a club legend so I am quite sure we will have next season to judge him properly.

Biggest disappointments for me this season are actually West Ham and Watford. They have some quality in their side and should be at least mid table positioned instead fighting for relegation.

And two clubs that have absolutely delighted me with their performance so far are Liverpool (surprise, surprise) and Sheffield. If Sheffield manages to get European places they should build a monument for all their players and coach.

Pep flop of the season? What?? Are you all for real?

He is 2nd in the league, still in CL, still in FA cup, in League cup final. He will move his priorities away from the league and that is completely normal so even if the gap will be 30 points by the end of the season that still does not mean that he flopped.

We have so many candidates for the flop of the season and you choose the one team that has outscored Liverpool this season?

Def Pep imo.  He was given the budget, they spent it well (imho), they're one of the better squads in Europe (could be one of the best even).  Yet...

If there was a club who was set to win all 4 cups in one season, it was City under Pep.

Let's see
- Pep: There wasn't much he could do against Liverpool and their once-in-a-lifetime insane league run. Plus, City's main objective is the CL i think.
- Ole: Awful season but, expectations were extremely low to begin with.
- Lampard: For a manager making his debut in the EPL, he's doing pretty good.
- Arteta: His first job as a head coach, you can't really expect too much from him.
- Mou: Took the job after the season started...team's had ups and downs but they're still in the top 6.

It's too early to say for sure who's the flop, but I feel like whoever finishes outside of the european competition spots will be the flop of the season.

Ole is for sure. I can't see any reason for him to stay even if (my opinion) all player purchases are well done and making room selling old or less significant players.
Pep can go out, he always runs away when things get going wrong.

Maybe Lampard, with Chelsea we never know when they are satisfied with the manager. He sucked Di Matteo after UCL wins.