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Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack - page 52. (Read 136162 times)

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
100%

On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

BB.

I like that sentence.
It would be interesting for a change if this could be settled somehow without conventional government involvement.

Somebody in an unrelated post was suggesting a new nation based on Bitcoin.

Is this not an opportunity to take responsibility into our own hands?


legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
we can trace it down to the last Satoshi
No you can't, you'll however see them slowly mix with all the rest of them and eventually every single coin will have a faint Bitcoinica smell.
You know, just like when you pee in the bathtub: was has been peed cannot be unpeed  Wink
hero member
Activity: 530
Merit: 500
Object of theft is irrelevant.

Exactly, as shown by the Dutch judges who sentenced persons for theft of virtual Runescape objects:

Quote
One of the defendants then appealed to the country's supreme court on the grounds that the stolen goods "were neither tangible nor material and, unlike for example electricity, had no economic value."

However, the judges declared that these virtual items had value because they represented "time and energy invested" to acquire.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01/31/dutch-supreme-court-declares-runescape-theft-a-real-world-crime/
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Exactly. You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. By integrating with society, you are part of the legal system whether you like it or not.
I speak as an exchange operator when I say : yup !
member
Activity: 63
Merit: 10
But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

How is an inside job our carelessness?


Several months ago I was briefly entertaining the thought of putting some funds on bitcoinica just to try it out (I'm not familiar with daytrading at all). But I didn't. Because I didn't feel safe about it. Just a gut feeling. I then told myself "Maybe like 10 BTC just for fun", but didn't even do that.

If you're an amateur and risked a significant amount, fuck your coins. If you consider yourself a professional daytrader you should've known about the technology and the risk involved: fuck your coins.

The warnings were ALL OVER THE PLACE.



Fuck your face bitch.
member
Activity: 101
Merit: 10
Tell me, why are the vast majority of Bitcoin users not allowed to enlist government support because a few people don't like it? Nothing exists outside of institutional control and protection, and I can assure you most Bitcoin users are more than happy with that.
On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

Its clear that many here disagree with me and to them I say - bravo! I want everyone to initiate legal proceedings and try to put these people behind bars!


BB.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1077

Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.

BB.

This is extremely naive.


Exactly. You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. By integrating with society, you are part of the legal system whether you like it or not.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
-

Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.

BB.

This is extremely naive.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
100%
But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

How is an inside job our carelessness?


Several months ago I was briefly entertaining the thought of putting some funds on bitcoinica just to try it out (I'm not familiar with daytrading at all). But I didn't. Because I didn't feel safe about it. Just a gut feeling. I then told myself "Maybe like 10 BTC just for fun", but didn't even do that.

If you're an amateur and risked a significant amount, fuck your coins. If you consider yourself a professional daytrader you should've known about the technology and the risk involved: fuck your coins.

The warnings were ALL OVER THE PLACE.

hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
But still good luck building a case in china...
You must have had a HUGE account with bitcoinica building such an international case ranging into corruption havens such as china.
Not even if I possessed all bitcoinica funds I would waste my funds for taking a chance there. In relation to internationally enforced cases we are talking about peanuts here.


...but as I stated earlier not all bitcoiners are pacific hackers - I personally from what I know would fear for my life being involved in this.
For all those still hoping for their fund - write it off finally and enjoy the crime story evolving.

Law enforcement would be starting with the evidence MtGox has and following the trail from there.  I wouldn't assume that what's been revealed by the exchanges on here is all there is to find.

It's one thing to report a crime and have the investigation go nowhere - it's not the fault of whoever reported it if the investigation reaches a dead end.  It's almost impossible at this point to shed the belief that you're trying to hide something if it's not reported though.

Quote
So far, no BTC theft that we know of has been treated as a real theft by any government agency.

So far, no BTC theft of any size that we know of has been reported to a government agency.

Quote
Only when the "victims" have won the case will the accussed have to pay their fees and damages. That does not account for being able to financially propel a prosecution for the length of any investigations and court proceedings. Go on, ask a lawyer to work on your behalf for free in lieu of payment after success. Indeed, the accumulated cost of bringing this whole saga to court will cost more than what was originally stolen.

You're confusing civil and criminal law here.  People are talking about making a report to law enforcement for a criminal investigation for theft to determine who actually committed and/or profited from the MtGox compromise.  That's a quite separate issue to people suing Bitcoinica for the return of their funds.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000


The USD part if brought to the attention of the authorities would be at least investigated.  I can not say the same for the BTC part.  So far, no BTC theft that we know of has been treated as a real theft by any government agency.  

BTC theft for the time being may be treated similar to other "in game currency" thefts or ponzis.  

http://www.diedagain.com/eve-ponzi-scheme-nets-over-50k-in-swindled-profit

Object of theft is irrelevant. When crime is committed it must/should be reported to authorities regardless.  Someone steals a peanut from you - you have a legal right to seek justice. Bitcoin is no different since it carries value to a crime victim and obviously to one committing a crime, otherwise why steal in a first place. Value doesn't have to be material/financial in order to report theft to authorities, it could as well be sentimental, artistic, historic, etc.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1077
How convenient! And you know what, it is bullshit!
I would love to be proven wrong but fear that I won't be.

USD was taken as well, authorities are well versed in dealing with USD based crimes. Law enforcement has recovered virtual furniture and goods before so I also challenge the claim they would be incapable of dealing with bitcoins.
I see what you mean but do not believe similar cases are relevant to bitcoin, which has not been subject of any significant court proceedings.

Of course it's bullshit.  Most - if not all - of the countries involved have specialised computer and financial crimes units and police regularly call in civilian experts to assist with their investigations (especially universities).  There are plenty of technology experts they can call on for assistance.
Of course they can, however, legally bitcoin will be dismissed as a criminal money-laundering network for which there are no "victims".

The prosecution is not the financial burden of the victims in criminal cases - the only people who would have to worry about legal fees would be the accused.
Only when the "victims" have won the case will the accussed have to pay their fees and damages. That does not account for being able to financially propel a prosecution for the length of any investigations and court proceedings. Go on, ask a lawyer to work on your behalf for free in lieu of payment after success. Indeed, the accumulated cost of bringing this whole saga to court will cost more than what was originally stolen.

In theory a court case may be possible, but by considering just a few practicalities, it seems highly unlikely.


This is only vaguely related but:

At first everyone's like "Yeah, fuck state government and central authority. We don't need them to run our economy! Let the people take their money into their own hands! Bitcoin FTW!" In fact, this forum is full of slogans like that.

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

And you know what happens when you ask authority for help: they will place their protective palms on your butts and slowly move their middle finger up your cavities.

I'd rather have a glass of champagne with that Chinese millionaire and take a look at his relic collection (and maybe steal one) than listen to a heard of sheep whining and complaining to authority.

Most of y'all early adopters will lose most of their coins anyway and still end up richer than today. Just you wait!

[/yadda yadda]
This man speaks sense.
Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.


BB.

Tell me, why are the vast majority of Bitcoin users not allowed to enlist government support because a few people don't like it? Nothing exists outside of institutional control and protection, and I can assure you most Bitcoin users are more than happy with that.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
I know at least in the US you can still face charges for committing crimes against other criminals or suspect organizations.

People have been convicted for extorting others using evidence of criminal behavior, fyi.

Of course they can, however, legally bitcoin will be dismissed as a criminal money-laundering network for which there are no "victims".

And as for "QQ you are using a stateless currency so too bad", that is a statement I can understand when dealing directly through the bitcoin network. Dealing with a registered business and mixing in government currencies changes the situation significantly.
member
Activity: 101
Merit: 10
How convenient! And you know what, it is bullshit!
I would love to be proven wrong but fear that I won't be.

USD was taken as well, authorities are well versed in dealing with USD based crimes. Law enforcement has recovered virtual furniture and goods before so I also challenge the claim they would be incapable of dealing with bitcoins.
I see what you mean but do not believe similar cases are relevant to bitcoin, which has not been subject of any significant court proceedings.

Of course it's bullshit.  Most - if not all - of the countries involved have specialised computer and financial crimes units and police regularly call in civilian experts to assist with their investigations (especially universities).  There are plenty of technology experts they can call on for assistance.
Of course they can, however, legally bitcoin will be dismissed as a criminal money-laundering network for which there are no "victims".

The prosecution is not the financial burden of the victims in criminal cases - the only people who would have to worry about legal fees would be the accused.
Only when the "victims" have won the case will the accussed have to pay their fees and damages. That does not account for being able to financially propel a prosecution for the length of any investigations and court proceedings. Go on, ask a lawyer to work on your behalf for free in lieu of payment after success. Indeed, the accumulated cost of bringing this whole saga to court will cost more than what was originally stolen.

In theory a court case may be possible, but by considering just a few practicalities, it seems highly unlikely.


This is only vaguely related but:

At first everyone's like "Yeah, fuck state government and central authority. We don't need them to run our economy! Let the people take their money into their own hands! Bitcoin FTW!" In fact, this forum is full of slogans like that.

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

And you know what happens when you ask authority for help: they will place their protective palms on your butts and slowly move their middle finger up your cavities.

I'd rather have a glass of champagne with that Chinese millionaire and take a look at his relic collection (and maybe steal one) than listen to a heard of sheep whining and complaining to authority.

Most of y'all early adopters will lose most of their coins anyway and still end up richer than today. Just you wait!

[/yadda yadda]
This man speaks sense.
Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.


BB.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
-
At first everyone's like "Yeah, fuck state government and central authority. We don't need them to run our economy! Let the people take their money into their own hands! Bitcoin FTW!" In fact, this forum is full of slogans like that.

Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
This is only vaguely related but:

At first everyone's like "Yeah, fuck state government and central authority. We don't need them to run our economy! Let the people take their money into their own hands! Bitcoin FTW!" In fact, this forum is full of slogans like that.

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

And you know what happens when you ask authority for help: they will place their protective palms on your butts and slowly move their middle finger up your cavities.

I'd rather have a glass of champagne with that Chinese millionaire and take a look at his relic collection (and maybe steal one) than listen to a heard of sheep whining and complaining to authority.

Most of y'all early adopters will lose most of their coins anyway and still end up richer than today. Just you wait!


[/yadda yadda]




Correct, so if we dont get the law involved then we will have to handle this ourself.

Which do you think is the better approach? The court or the knife ?

On a side note, Zhou, I recall you stating spending most of your money to pay off your parents home... well buddy since its money that came from your pocket you better start getting a morgage or sale price on that home since it would be owned by you as the financial contributor if taken to court which would in turn mean the house funds belong to the bitcoinica users.

Sucks to be you, I mean sucks to get caught.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

How is an inside job our carelessness?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
100%
This is only vaguely related but:

At first everyone's like "Yeah, fuck state government and central authority. We don't need them to run our economy! Let the people take their money into their own hands! Bitcoin FTW!" In fact, this forum is full of slogans like that.

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

And you know what happens when you ask authority for help: they will place their protective palms on your butts and slowly move their middle finger up your cavities.

I'd rather have a glass of champagne with that Chinese millionaire and take a look at his relic collection (and maybe steal one) than listen to a heard of sheep whining and complaining to authority.

Most of y'all early adopters will lose most of their coins anyway and still end up richer than today. Just you wait!


[/yadda yadda]


legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
EVERY VICTIM OF BITCOINICA HEIST/FRAUD/NEGLIGENCE/WHATEVER,

I have a suggestion for you. Pick up a phone (101 in UK), go to local police station, whatever the procedure is in your locality and file a crime report, press charges, provide police with as many details as possible such as company names, and addresses, names and addresses of people involved into these companies, bank account numbers, BTC addresses, amounts of fiat and bitcoins that you and reportedly others have lost, timeline of events as known to you.

And let the chips fall where they will.



Officer Joe : "And what exactly are those Coinbits you had stolen from you?"

Victim: "Bitcoins. They're like a currency only for the internets, you know?"

Officer Joe: "I've never heard of this? Bob, have you ever heard of this?"

Officer Bob: "Is that like them there Facebook Money for the Amazons?"

Victim: "Yes.. No.. Kinda like that but ..."

Officer Bob: "Mah Darlene is always buying dem Facebook Moneys for dat dere Farm game, ya know? I says: Darlene, stop playing with them Farmbooks and get out there to feed them cows!"

Officer Joe: "So you got your computer game dollars stolen? Is that what we're talking about?"

Victim: "NO! It's not for Facebook. It's for buying.... other stuff..."

Officer Stan joining in: "I bet it's porn. Look at 'im blushing. I know it. I said it. It's porn."

Victim: "NO! It's not porn! There's this place called the Silk Road and... and...aaand... ooooh, look at the time... Toodles!"

Are you saying that act of stealing is only recognized applicable to real money, any stealing anything else isn't considered as such??? LOL

The USD part if brought to the attention of the authorities would be at least investigated.  I can not say the same for the BTC part.  So far, no BTC theft that we know of has been treated as a real theft by any government agency.  

BTC theft for the time being may be treated similar to other "in game currency" thefts or ponzis.  

http://www.diedagain.com/eve-ponzi-scheme-nets-over-50k-in-swindled-profit
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002
EVERY VICTIM OF BITCOINICA HEIST/FRAUD/NEGLIGENCE/WHATEVER,

I have a suggestion for you. Pick up a phone (101 in UK), go to local police station, whatever the procedure is in your locality and file a crime report, press charges, provide police with as many details as possible such as company names, and addresses, names and addresses of people involved into these companies, bank account numbers, BTC addresses, amounts of fiat and bitcoins that you and reportedly others have lost, timeline of events as known to you.

And let the chips fall where they will.



Officer Joe : "And what exactly are those Coinbits you had stolen from you?"

Victim: "Bitcoins. They're like a currency only for the internets, you know?"

Officer Joe: "I've never heard of this? Bob, have you ever heard of this?"

Officer Bob: "Is that like them there Facebook Money for the Amazons?"

Victim: "Yes.. No.. Kinda like that but ..."

Officer Bob: "Mah Darlene is always buying dem Facebook Moneys for dat dere Farm game, ya know? I says: Darlene, stop playing with them Farmbooks and get out there to feed them cows!"

Officer Joe: "So you got your computer game dollars stolen? Is that what we're talking about?"

Victim: "NO! It's not for Facebook. It's for buying.... other stuff..."

Officer Stan joining in: "I bet it's porn. Look at 'im blushing. I know it. I said it. It's porn."

Victim: "NO! It's not porn! There's this place called the Silk Road and... and...aaand... ooooh, look at the time... Toodles!"

OH. I get what you mean: Cops in your country are almost as STUPID as you.

Thank you for the clarification. Now crawl back to SA, douchebag.
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