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Topic: Stephen Reed's Million Dollar Logistic Model - page 5. (Read 123165 times)

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
The point of my post (and graph) above was a slightly different one, though. Aimed more at Peter R.'s models, now that I think of it (since he is the one who uses 'no of tx' as a proxy for adoption in a Metcalfe based model).

What I had in mind is: if Bitcoin adoption is, against earlier optimistic assumptions, neither accurately captured by your logistic model nor by a constant exponent exponential growth model based on a constant rate of growth, then all the current models could be missing something that the market / price discovery (perhaps) is picking up already: adoption continues, but the growth rate of adoption declines over time.

Your model would "miss" it because the growth function is hardcoded into it (the S-shape), Peter R.'s model would "miss" it, for a while at least, because the coefficient that relates price/mcap and adoption proxy is a global value, and will take time to adjust to a lower value.

Do you see the point I'm (clumsily) trying to make here?

Yes, and thank you for the helpful clarification.

Mathematically, the logistic model has the property of decreasing exponential growth, which is most obvious on a log graph as we near full adoption. It is only a falsifiable hypothesis that a logistic model can explain bitcoin prices. My reason for choosing this model was to fit the obvious constraint that exponential price growth must eventually end. Perhaps we are at that point now, but I believe not based upon the steady improvement in Bitcoin transactional infrastructure. http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/

There is at least one mathematical theory of price bubbles that could be used to elaborate this logistic model, but I hesitate to combine them for fear of unsound overfitting given the additional number of parameters whose values must be set. The bitcoin logistic model has only two parameters: the maximum price and the full adoption duration.

Alright, playing around with my idea some more...

Extrapolating from the interpretation of the graph I posted above, we get something like: the first factor 10 increase takes 12 months, the second 18, the third 24 months, etc.

In other words, to apply n times the factor g increase of the starting value, we require n-th triangle number time steps.

Which leads to the formula:

f(0.5*(t^2+t)) = s*g^t

or equivalently:

f(t)=s*g^(0.5*(sqrt(8t+1)-1))

where s is the starting value and g the growth factor.

Now, where that one[1] falls in terms of functional growth, I'm not sure. Doesn't seem to fit the definition of exponential growth anymore, but doesn't just grow linearly either... At first I thought it would be another example of bounded growth (similar to your logistic function then), but plotting it, it very much looks like it is still exponentially growing (just as a slightly compressed looking curve, compared to "regular" exponential growth) ...

[1] O(c^sqrt(n))
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
The point of my post (and graph) above was a slightly different one, though. Aimed more at Peter R.'s models, now that I think of it (since he is the one who uses 'no of tx' as a proxy for adoption in a Metcalfe based model).

What I had in mind is: if Bitcoin adoption is, against earlier optimistic assumptions, neither accurately captured by your logistic model nor by a constant exponent exponential growth model based on a constant rate of growth, then all the current models could be missing something that the market / price discovery (perhaps) is picking up already: adoption continues, but the growth rate of adoption declines over time.

Your model would "miss" it because the growth function is hardcoded into it (the S-shape), Peter R.'s model would "miss" it, for a while at least, because the coefficient that relates price/mcap and adoption proxy is a global value, and will take time to adjust to a lower value.

Do you see the point I'm (clumsily) trying to make here?

Yes, and thank you for the helpful clarification.

Mathematically, the logistic model has the property of decreasing exponential growth, which is most obvious on a log graph as we near full adoption. It is only a falsifiable hypothesis that a logistic model can explain bitcoin prices. My reason for choosing this model was to fit the obvious constraint that exponential price growth must eventually end. Perhaps we are at that point now, but I believe not based upon the steady improvement in Bitcoin transactional infrastructure. http://www.bitcoinpulse.com/

There is at least one mathematical theory of price bubbles that could be used to elaborate this logistic model, but I hesitate to combine them for fear of unsound overfitting given the additional number of parameters whose values must be set. The bitcoin logistic model has only two parameters: the maximum price and the full adoption duration.

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
The observation is that, if we ignore the "spikes" into a higher range of transactions, one could argue there is an overall slowing down of adoption (as measure by transaction). The Metcalfe's law based price models wouldn't necessarily pick this up initially, because transactions *are* still rising, but it is (at least to me) conceivable that rate of growth is behind earlier expectations, and this reflects in the current price stagnation (as in: the markets pick up slower than expected adoption than the models do).

Here's the slow-down I have in mind, if viewed from the following point of view: Let's look at "transaction eras" only in terms of powers of 10, and only after the no. of transactions doesn't fall back into the previous order of magnitude.

Any opinions on this?

As stated in the original post, my high price of $1 million is simply a guess. I could get a better fit on the logistic model with the data series to-date by assuming a high price of $2500. But that implies that we are near or have passed the adoption midpoint - which is hard to believe.

Alternatively, I am intrigued by the suggestion that the logistic model is a better fit to market capitalization data than to price data, because market cap takes into account the supply of bitcoin that meets the demand of the marginal new adopter.

I shall prepare another model using bitcoin market cap, but I would very much like to wait until the new year or a bubble, whichever occurs first because bubble peaks are easy to recognize and bottoms much more difficult. The right hand side of the model graph is hand fit to balance the central tendency and it is not clear yet where that region is for the bubble that peaked in November 2013.


Good points. Would like to see the market cap model very much.

The point of my post (and graph) above was a slightly different one, though. Aimed more at Peter R.'s models, now that I think of it (since he is the one who uses 'no of tx' as a proxy for adoption in a Metcalfe based model).

What I had in mind is: if Bitcoin adoption is, against earlier optimistic assumptions, neither accurately captured by your logistic model nor by a constant exponent exponential growth model based on a constant rate of growth, then all the current models could be missing something that the market / price discovery (perhaps) is picking up already: adoption continues, but the growth rate of adoption declines over time.

Your model would "miss" it because the growth function is hardcoded into it (the S-shape), Peter R.'s model would "miss" it, for a while at least, because the coefficient that relates price/mcap and adoption proxy is a global value, and will take time to adjust to a lower value.

Do you see the point I'm (clumsily) trying to make here?
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
The observation is that, if we ignore the "spikes" into a higher range of transactions, one could argue there is an overall slowing down of adoption (as measure by transaction). The Metcalfe's law based price models wouldn't necessarily pick this up initially, because transactions *are* still rising, but it is (at least to me) conceivable that rate of growth is behind earlier expectations, and this reflects in the current price stagnation (as in: the markets pick up slower than expected adoption than the models do).

Here's the slow-down I have in mind, if viewed from the following point of view: Let's look at "transaction eras" only in terms of powers of 10, and only after the no. of transactions doesn't fall back into the previous order of magnitude.

Any opinions on this?

As stated in the original post, my high price of $1 million is simply a guess. I could get a better fit on the logistic model with the data series to-date by assuming a high price of $2500. But that implies that we are near or have passed the adoption midpoint - which is hard to believe.

Alternatively, I am intrigued by the suggestion that the logistic model is a better fit to market capitalization data than to price data, because market cap takes into account the supply of bitcoin that meets the demand of the marginal new adopter.

I shall prepare another model using bitcoin market cap, but I would very much like to wait until the new year or a bubble, whichever occurs first because bubble peaks are easy to recognize and bottoms much more difficult. The right hand side of the model graph is hand fit to balance the central tendency and it is not clear yet where that region is for the bubble that peaked in November 2013.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
Here's an observation, not sure if it is new to you or not...

(by the way, as I said before, your work is much appreciated Stephen. I've been critical about aspects of it before, and this comment won't be different,
but I think there's a good reason for someone to take the 'devil's advocate' role once in a while)

The observation is that, if we ignore the "spikes" into a higher range of transactions, one could argue there is an overall slowing down of adoption (as measure by transaction). The Metcalfe's law based price models wouldn't necessarily pick this up initially, because transactions *are* still rising, but it is (at least to me) conceivable that rate of growth is behind earlier expectations, and this reflects in the current price stagnation (as in: the markets pick up slower than expected adoption than the models do).

Here's the slow-down I have in mind, if viewed from the following point of view: Let's look at "transaction eras" only in terms of powers of 10, and only after the no. of transactions doesn't fall back into the previous order of magnitude.

Arbitrary definition? Maybe. Anyway, here's the transaction graph if parsed like that:



Any opinions on this?
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
With this article claiming bitcoin transaction is increasing day by day but the price dropping every day, can we come to conclusion that metcalfe law does not have any relation with bitcoin price?

http://www.cio.com.au/article/556378/mobile-payments-grow-60-8-by-2015-capgemini/

I would accept that this observation weakens the Metcalfe Law hypothesis with regard to Bitcoin network effects. But as Peter_R has shown in his charts, there is considerable variability in the data series, although over time the correlation is significant.

I continue to wait for the 7-day smoothed number of transactions excluding the 100 most popular addresses to exceed 80000. That would be an all-time-high. And if bitcoin price is still depressed then that would be stronger evidence against the hypothesis.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
With this article claiming bitcoin transaction is increasing day by day but the price dropping every day, can we come to conclusion that metcalfe law does not have any relation with bitcoin price?

http://www.cio.com.au/article/556378/mobile-payments-grow-60-8-by-2015-capgemini/
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
September 24, 2014, 08:49:38 AM
Quote
My hypothesis is weakened a bit with this chart which shows transaction quantity relatively surpassing market cap in the summer of 2012, without a major new bubble.

That was Satoshi Dice running it's network transaction quantity "stress test" I think you'll find ...

I see now. For this reason and to filter out other non-economic transactions, Blockchain excludes the 100 most popular addresses when calculating the data series that I follow.

yeah, that was the TXS data series I used ... didn't satoshi dice generate random addresses on demand?

No they had a set of vanity addresses depicted the wager one wanted to take.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
September 24, 2014, 12:23:35 AM
Quote
My hypothesis is weakened a bit with this chart which shows transaction quantity relatively surpassing market cap in the summer of 2012, without a major new bubble.

That was Satoshi Dice running it's network transaction quantity "stress test" I think you'll find ...

I see now. For this reason and to filter out other non-economic transactions, Blockchain excludes the 100 most popular addresses when calculating the data series that I follow.

yeah, that was the TXS data series I used ... didn't satoshi dice generate random addresses on demand?
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
September 24, 2014, 12:13:10 AM
Quote
My hypothesis is weakened a bit with this chart which shows transaction quantity relatively surpassing market cap in the summer of 2012, without a major new bubble.

That was Satoshi Dice running it's network transaction quantity "stress test" I think you'll find ...

I see now. For this reason and to filter out other non-economic transactions, Blockchain excludes the 100 most popular addresses when calculating the data series that I follow.
sr. member
Activity: 468
Merit: 250
J
September 23, 2014, 11:04:07 PM
Looks like a dogecoin analysis with real maths and stuff.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
September 23, 2014, 11:01:24 PM
Quote
My hypothesis is weakened a bit with this chart which shows transaction quantity relatively surpassing market cap in the summer of 2012, without a major new bubble.

That was Satoshi Dice running it's network transaction quantity "stress test" I think you'll find ...
hero member
Activity: 503
Merit: 501
September 23, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Beautiful chart, you can really see the divergence and I don't think it's transaction rate that is going down either.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
September 23, 2014, 08:15:32 PM
using total BTC (network) value not price (which is only proxy for total network value) ... and correlates with txs^2, (completely unadjusted)

Awesome.

This is a nice complement to what Peter_R calculated. I hope that transaction quantity growth continues for the next few months. My hypothesis is weakened a bit with this chart which shows transaction quantity relatively surpassing market cap in the summer of 2012, without a major new bubble.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
September 23, 2014, 07:18:38 PM


using total BTC (network) value not price (which is only proxy for total network value) ... and correlates with txs^2, (completely unadjusted)
hero member
Activity: 503
Merit: 501
September 23, 2014, 04:52:46 PM
I would like to see bitcoin decouple from gold. Both bitcoin and gold formed higher lows in May/June and after both bitcoin and gold failed to extend those bullish patterns thru attaining a new higher low, bitcoin has broken above May's 421 mark while gold is still about 15 points below its May Low of 1238 - so gold is lagging bitcoin on this rally.
sr. member
Activity: 379
Merit: 250
September 23, 2014, 04:45:25 PM
And here is the daily gold/USD price chart which shows a small rally coincident in time with today's bitcoin price rally ...



That's an interesting coincidence. Or is it?
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
September 23, 2014, 02:19:15 PM
And here is the daily gold/USD price chart which shows a small rally coincident in time with today's bitcoin price rally ...

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
September 23, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
Here is the 15-minute chart of Bitstamp prices showing what I believe to be a short-covering rally. It will be interesting to see if this continues past a few more days....
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
September 23, 2014, 11:25:43 AM
i have been following those graphs closely, and i believe they are a good indicator. They also explain why we haven't seen a new ATH yet. Because we are not ready for it. But, we are getting near the point where we are ready.
Check the 1w KDJ indicator, for example on bitcoinwisdom, and see how ready we are, indeed. However, this indicator says also that for a sprint and following ATH we have to wait a little more. Check the history at what KDJ levels sprints started. But the turnaround is near, that's for sure. Smiley
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