Haven't checked their website in a while but I just noticed KNC comes to china! banner http://kncminer.cn/
Interesting. So that KNC .cn website wasn't a scam website after all.
Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 1808. (Read 3049501 times)
O'rama has contributed 100 times more than anyone else here "Disco" .
Mostly misinformation. See my post above as a good example.You are clueless, and best read the openday reports before you look even more stupid. Laws are different in different countries concerning credit cards, just get over it, your BS is Trivial.
I'm not wasting any more time here. Read my post above and think about how bitcoinorama has influenced you and whether it's a good or bad thing. That's all. I really don't care if you don't either.
O'rama has contributed 100 times more than anyone else here "Disco" .
Mostly misinformation. See my post above as a good example.You are clueless, and best read the openday reports before you look even more stupid. Laws are different in different countries concerning credit cards, just get over it, your BS is Trivial. I could give a rat's ass less about the finer points of credit card consumer protection, really. "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". At least they're not like the rest.... going to accepting BTC only... That's a red flag, not this cc stuff.
O'rama has contributed 100 times more than anyone else here "Disco" .
Mostly misinformation. See my post above as a good example.
O'rama has contributed 100 times more than anyone else here "Disco" . You are like the annoying neighbor's dog that won't stop barking at the wind.
Let it go dude, we all know you have a huge man boner for Bitcoinorama.
It's obvious with the copious amount of time you spend ranting about him.
Also someone bent your tinfoil hat, you might want to go make another one.
I reponding to the lies and BS he fed me yesterday. You can check my posts - I barely posted anything in this thread before yesterday. You are fairly shill-ish too, but very few take any notice of you. Orama is the main person who's lies need to be called out. It's obvious with the copious amount of time you spend ranting about him.
Also someone bent your tinfoil hat, you might want to go make another one.
I've been getting all the response I want via email. Bitching in this forum is the worst way to get answers.
Haha exactly. The guy has some weird expectation and all he does is keep demanding them here. It's like trying to talk to the band, while screaming at a concert
This is just bullshit.
I did not made any "demands" to KnCminer. I indeed criticized KnCminer lack of communication in this forum, but at no moment I requested "them here". You should get your perception straight:
Quote
Why KNC should use this topic as a method of communication, when over 95% of its content is filled with posts from people, who have no interest in purchasing a miner? Do you think it is easy to follow a topic that grows 10 pages every day?
What is so difficult in writing an email or calling them and getting answers direct?
What is so difficult in writing an email or calling them and getting answers direct?
So what answer you expected from me? I gave the best answer I could. Then you started to twist what I answered. This tell a lot about you wilful ignorance. You have no clue whatsoever to assume any meaningful conclusion about what I really expect from the forum participants.
But, please, do not let my presence here stop you from being a total jerk. Just do not expect to receive any more answers for your questions from me.
reseller banners:
https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-29
https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-29
Let's just set out a few facts here:
I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.
By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.
This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).
The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).
if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...
Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.
Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity
Of course I am serious.
This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer. That makes you the "bad guy" of the two and if you're trying to pull a "consumer" on them, that's also a breach of contract. Either which puts you on the wrong side of good in case of litigation.
All I'm saying is, if you feel you'll need "consumer protection", check with a lawyer in your country. The "...but I'm really a consumer" argument doesn't stick where I am, so it's likely to fail elsewhere as well.
As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.
Carl from KNCMiner clearly states they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
About three posts later in that thread, bitcoinorama posted a message (August 09, 2013, 12:50:10 AM). SO HE HAS MOST DEFINITELY READ THE MESSAGE. He has it from a KNCMiner employee that the reason they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Let's fast forward to my question yesterday, where I asked the very same question. I hadn't read the above post at that point, so was entirely reliant on someone giving me an honest answer:
In the beginning they KnC had to apply to EVERY EU country for a business tax code, otherwise they were limited as to how much they could sell to each country (UK max would have been £70k inc. VAT).
This was laborious and ongoing as they opened for pre-orders.
Perhaps that was why?
Bitcoinorama is spreading BS and lies. He saw the message from KNC Carl on 8th August, but is now playing the dummy. His usual PR, trying to tell everyone they are protected for years, even though a KNC employee has clearly stated customers are not - they are being treated as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Bitcoinorama is entirely dishonest. He works very hard to discredit KS, who has done his research and has proved KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
I'll quote KS from yesterday, as I believe it much more actual truth than anything Bitcoinorama has ever said:
So beware of Bitcoinorama. He is not being honest with people at all. He is fully aware KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase, but makes up all kinds of BS to the opposite to deliberately mislead people.
He's doing that because he's either got some mental issues and feels the need to control how people think about knc and their products and how "safe" it is to purchase from them. Or? I'll leave you to decide.
I'm sure he'll come on here and say "Oh, I forget" or "I didn't see that" (even though he posted in the same thread just before and just after that debate. And anybody who posts on this thread knows he is always monitoring it). And for someone who has obsessively spent 717 hours on the forum since he joined 4 months ago, you know he has!
Although he likes to seem helpful, he cannot be trusted. He distorts the truth and misleads. You have been warned.
Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).
First they strictly treat you as a business customer:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
First they strictly treat you as a business customer:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
Quote from: Me
Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:
"1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
Quote from: KnCMiner
A: Hi,
Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.
Thanks,
Carl
Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.
Thanks,
Carl
So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.
By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.
This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).
The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).
if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...
Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.
Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity
Of course I am serious.
This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer. That makes you the "bad guy" of the two and if you're trying to pull a "consumer" on them, that's also a breach of contract. Either which puts you on the wrong side of good in case of litigation.
All I'm saying is, if you feel you'll need "consumer protection", check with a lawyer in your country. The "...but I'm really a consumer" argument doesn't stick where I am, so it's likely to fail elsewhere as well.
As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.
Carl from KNCMiner clearly states they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
About three posts later in that thread, bitcoinorama posted a message (August 09, 2013, 12:50:10 AM). SO HE HAS MOST DEFINITELY READ THE MESSAGE. He has it from a KNCMiner employee that the reason they are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Let's fast forward to my question yesterday, where I asked the very same question. I hadn't read the above post at that point, so was entirely reliant on someone giving me an honest answer:
1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.
Why sell to hobbists/consumers, yet make the hobbists/consumers agree they are a business?
Why sell to hobbists/consumers, yet make the hobbists/consumers agree they are a business?
In the beginning they KnC had to apply to EVERY EU country for a business tax code, otherwise they were limited as to how much they could sell to each country (UK max would have been £70k inc. VAT).
This was laborious and ongoing as they opened for pre-orders.
Perhaps that was why?
Bitcoinorama is spreading BS and lies. He saw the message from KNC Carl on 8th August, but is now playing the dummy. His usual PR, trying to tell everyone they are protected for years, even though a KNC employee has clearly stated customers are not - they are being treated as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
Bitcoinorama is entirely dishonest. He works very hard to discredit KS, who has done his research and has proved KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase.
I'll quote KS from yesterday, as I believe it much more actual truth than anything Bitcoinorama has ever said:
Official EU 2" year warranty": http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm
Full brochure: http://ec.europa.eu/archives/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm
Business "consumer rights" are defined in the contract (for KNCMINER contract = T&C). Here's KNCMINER 1 year warranty:
"6.1 KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months (...)"
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
The "consumer rights" for businesses are basically that you get what you ordered and that it should work reasonably well (unless there are more exclusion clauses in the contract). If you're not happy, you either bargain with the seller (if you're lucky) or you sue (the rest of the time). A business vs business lawsuit is not the same as consumer vs business one. The consumer is over-protected, while the business is not (and a lot of haggling of the contract will ensue). Anyway, suing is really mostly money lost and time wasted. (Cost of doing business).
BTCOrama could do HIS due diligence and confirm what I said with a lawyer of his choice.
edit: fixed link
Full brochure: http://ec.europa.eu/archives/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm
Business "consumer rights" are defined in the contract (for KNCMINER contract = T&C). Here's KNCMINER 1 year warranty:
"6.1 KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months (...)"
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
The "consumer rights" for businesses are basically that you get what you ordered and that it should work reasonably well (unless there are more exclusion clauses in the contract). If you're not happy, you either bargain with the seller (if you're lucky) or you sue (the rest of the time). A business vs business lawsuit is not the same as consumer vs business one. The consumer is over-protected, while the business is not (and a lot of haggling of the contract will ensue). Anyway, suing is really mostly money lost and time wasted. (Cost of doing business).
BTCOrama could do HIS due diligence and confirm what I said with a lawyer of his choice.
edit: fixed link
So beware of Bitcoinorama. He is not being honest with people at all. He is fully aware KNC are treating buyers as businesses so consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase, but makes up all kinds of BS to the opposite to deliberately mislead people.
He's doing that because he's either got some mental issues and feels the need to control how people think about knc and their products and how "safe" it is to purchase from them. Or? I'll leave you to decide.
I'm sure he'll come on here and say "Oh, I forget" or "I didn't see that" (even though he posted in the same thread just before and just after that debate. And anybody who posts on this thread knows he is always monitoring it). And for someone who has obsessively spent 717 hours on the forum since he joined 4 months ago, you know he has!
Although he likes to seem helpful, he cannot be trusted. He distorts the truth and misleads. You have been warned.
Never-mind, just wrong site, found them there - http://www.bolagsverket.se/en/us/about/e-services/foretagsfakta
You won't find much. They're a small company with less that 5K EUR in capital (or Gov tax as they themselves put it...
) and no submitted annual report (unless they published it during the last 2 weeks).They're "established if that's what you're trying to prove/disprove. You should also have a look at "Kennemar and Cole", "ORSoC", and the company that registered the domain name. All behind a paywall (not that it's too expensive).
I'm a little lost: have KnC demonstrated working prototypes? Proof of design/chip production? Anything other than a case rendering and website for preorders? At the moment, seems as though they have less credibility than BFL - at least they've shipped something.
Maybe read the thread, or at least the KnC news on their site.
BFL ? KnC will have to keep us waiting for a year from now to get close to them.
There is a KnC post a few pages back, states that they have one main goal...to deliver ASAP and not get into anything that's not needed that may delay that.
The day they have a working prototype will be the day they ship. They skipped that stage to make sure we get something worth having with the steep increase in difficulty. They could wait, add a month to the process and then we'd be dealing with the estimated December delivery of those 2TH Cointerra rigs and god knows what else ...and struggling to break even.
Anyone who waited a year or more for a rig from BFL won't see it return their investment now...KnC are attempting to avoid that situation.
People have spoken to them in person and on the phone, visited them, had replies to questions via email and phone.
Oh..and people have asked for refunds and got them.
You're not lost, you just need to read what's here and maybe email them if you have a question.
So that's a no, then.
BTW, figs are one of the best/highest profitable crops to grow in Hawaii.
Never-mind, just wrong site, found them there - http://www.bolagsverket.se/en/us/about/e-services/foretagsfakta
You won't find much. They're a small company with less that 5K EUR in capital (or Gov tax as they themselves put it...
) and no submitted annual report (unless they published it during the last 2 weeks).They're "established if that's what you're trying to prove/disprove. You should also have a look at "Kennemar and Cole", "ORSoC", and the company that registered the domain name. All behind a paywall (not that it's too expensive).
I'm a little lost: have KnC demonstrated working prototypes? Proof of design/chip production? Anything other than a case rendering and website for preorders? At the moment, seems as though they have less credibility than BFL - at least they've shipped something.
Maybe read the thread, or at least the KnC news on their site.
BFL ? KnC will have to keep us waiting for a year from now to get close to them.
There is a KnC post a few pages back, states that they have one main goal...to deliver ASAP and not get into anything that's not needed that may delay that.
The day they have a working prototype will be the day they ship. They skipped that stage to make sure we get something worth having with the steep increase in difficulty. They could wait, add a month to the process and then we'd be dealing with the estimated December delivery of those 2TH Cointerra rigs and god knows what else ...and struggling to break even.
Anyone who waited a year or more for a rig from BFL won't see it return their investment now...KnC are attempting to avoid that situation.
People have spoken to them in person and on the phone, visited them, had replies to questions via email and phone.
Oh..and people have asked for refunds and got them.
You're not lost, you just need to read what's here and maybe email them if you have a question.
So that's a no, then.
I've found interesting thing in Russian forum about KNC:
There is line at very bottom of https://www.kncminer.com : "©2013 all images and content copyright KnCMiner AB, org no: 556931-9725"
And there is Sweden business companies registry - http://fi.se
Let's try to search at http://fi.se/Folder-EN/Startpage/Register/Company-register/ by using "KnCMiner" company name or by "556931-9725" registration number, in both cases no one company found.
Hope this registry just incomplete...
There is line at very bottom of https://www.kncminer.com : "©2013 all images and content copyright KnCMiner AB, org no: 556931-9725"
And there is Sweden business companies registry - http://fi.se
Let's try to search at http://fi.se/Folder-EN/Startpage/Register/Company-register/ by using "KnCMiner" company name or by "556931-9725" registration number, in both cases no one company found.
Hope this registry just incomplete...
VIES doesn't work properly at the moment for Sweden VAT number, hence the old screenshot
edit 1: to check Sweden VAT number properly you need to append "01"
edit 2: VIES verification is actually working now so you could try yourself http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/
edit 3: add image tag
I've found interesting thing in Russian forum about KNC:
There is line at very bottom of https://www.kncminer.com : "©2013 all images and content copyright KnCMiner AB, org no: 556931-9725"
And there is Sweden business companies registry - http://fi.se
Let's try to search at http://fi.se/Folder-EN/Startpage/Register/Company-register/ by using "KnCMiner" company name or by "556931-9725" registration number, in both cases no one company found.
Hope this registry just incomplete...
There is line at very bottom of https://www.kncminer.com : "©2013 all images and content copyright KnCMiner AB, org no: 556931-9725"
And there is Sweden business companies registry - http://fi.se
Let's try to search at http://fi.se/Folder-EN/Startpage/Register/Company-register/ by using "KnCMiner" company name or by "556931-9725" registration number, in both cases no one company found.
Hope this registry just incomplete...
Look here:
http://www.rating.se/info1/detail/overview/5569319725
I've been getting all the response I want via email. Bitching in this forum is the worst way to get answers.
Haha exactly. The guy has some weird expectation and all he does is keep demanding them here. It's like trying to talk to the band, while screaming at a concert
Never-mind, just wrong site, found them there - http://www.bolagsverket.se/en/us/about/e-services/foretagsfakta
I've been getting all the response I want via email. Bitching in this forum is the worst way to get answers.
Yeah, yeah.
If it is something I am sure is that KnCminer team could care less for the valid questions made by many users in this thread. They are busy, indeed, competing with BFL and Hashfast to advertise in this forum:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2969290
So there is, 7 slots for 9 BTC each for seven days guaranteed. At the moment that means ~677.95 * 9 = 6101.55 USD, the cost to compensate their lack of communication after they started to receive pre-order funds.
Before to receive pre-order funds: quick responses and ready to sort out all questions.
After to receive pre-order funds: almost no response and ready to spend pre-order funds in advertisements.
If it is something I am sure is that KnCminer team could care less for the valid questions made by many users in this thread. They are busy, indeed, competing with BFL and Hashfast to advertise in this forum:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2969290
7@9
So there is, 7 slots for 9 BTC each for seven days guaranteed. At the moment that means ~677.95 * 9 = 6101.55 USD, the cost to compensate their lack of communication after they started to receive pre-order funds.
Before to receive pre-order funds: quick responses and ready to sort out all questions.
After to receive pre-order funds: almost no response and ready to spend pre-order funds in advertisements.
I've found interesting thing in Russian forum about KNC:
There is line at very bottom of https://www.kncminer.com : "©2013 all images and content copyright KnCMiner AB, org no: 556931-9725"
And there is Sweden business companies registry - http://fi.se
Let's try to search at http://fi.se/Folder-EN/Startpage/Register/Company-register/ by using "KnCMiner" company name or by "556931-9725" registration number, in both cases no one company found.
Hope this registry just incomplete...
There is line at very bottom of https://www.kncminer.com : "©2013 all images and content copyright KnCMiner AB, org no: 556931-9725"
And there is Sweden business companies registry - http://fi.se
Let's try to search at http://fi.se/Folder-EN/Startpage/Register/Company-register/ by using "KnCMiner" company name or by "556931-9725" registration number, in both cases no one company found.
Hope this registry just incomplete...
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