Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 252.

murraypaul

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: murraypaul on September 14, 2014, 04:30:33 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 01:12:06 PM

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?

Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest

No it isn't.
What you've said is frankly rubbish.

It´s not.
http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Lagar/Svenskforfattningssamling/Distans--och-hemforsaljningsla_sfs-2005-59/

If you don´t know Swedish law or can add anything of value, please don´t post.

Your cite defines the rights that consumers have in distance contracts.
It does not define what a consumer is, or in any way back up your original claim.

btc_uzr

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

let's have some fun

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 02:51:21 PM

Quote from: btc_uzr on September 14, 2014, 07:32:14 AM

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

Hi btc_uzr, I'm wondering why and whether you have changed your opinion?
You had previously mentioned this below.
(Although when I ordered it was not "non-refundable")
Thanks for the support.

Quote from: btc_uzr on August 01, 2014, 06:23:29 PM

Quote from: Fixx on August 01, 2014, 12:33:24 PM

(...)

Please tell me, I get my Titan until the end of the Q3 2014?
And if you do not get it, how long do I wait for a refund?

Considering the date of announced titan chip tape out:
"We achieved tape-out of the 2284-core Titan in early June"
they might be ready mid of September.

Titan refund ?
I'd say you will wait forever..
Didn't you notice "This product is nonrefundable." ?

No, opinion has not changed.
Filing complaints and waiting 'forever' (you know what time is like in bitcoin land) is not in opposite to each other.
Refund will take forever as they do not want to pay. Making them pay takes time, but is worth it.

When they ship you next week the order you have cancelled, let them know -for the record- it remains their property and you still want your refund.

Wish you best luck
..and more support from the affected ones.

murraypaul

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 01:12:06 PM

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?

Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest

No it isn't.
What you've said is frankly rubbish.

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: btc_uzr on September 14, 2014, 07:32:14 AM

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

Hi btc_uzr, I'm wondering why and whether you have changed your opinion?
You had previously mentioned this below.
(Although when I ordered it was not "non-refundable")
Thanks for the support.

Quote from: btc_uzr on August 01, 2014, 06:23:29 PM

Quote from: Fixx on August 01, 2014, 12:33:24 PM

(...)

Please tell me, I get my Titan until the end of the Q3 2014?
And if you do not get it, how long do I wait for a refund?

Considering the date of announced titan chip tape out:
"We achieved tape-out of the 2284-core Titan in early June"
they might be ready mid of September.

Titan refund ?
I'd say you will wait forever..
Didn't you notice "This product is nonrefundable." ?

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: Biffa on September 14, 2014, 02:34:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest

This is false, you can be a business without a EU Tax or VAT number.

You can be a sole trader, you can be a consultant, you can be whatever.

You agreed to the T&C's before you paid for the goods, the T&C's specify the sale is only to businesses.

Hmm, how did your refund go, Biffa? I don't have really time to read up on this monster thread.

Also the law is sometimes binding. You CANNOT sell a random product on a website "for business use only" without asking for business details etc.
The question is whether mining is a business activity and whether the intent to mine is sufficient to be considered a business. Again, check my thread for more details:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/contacting-authorities-regarding-kncminer-titan-neptune-781435

Biffa

legendary

Activity: 3234

Merit: 1220

Quote from: ?? on ??

Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest

This is false, you can be a business without a EU Tax or VAT number.

You can be a sole trader, you can be a consultant, you can be whatever.

You agreed to the T&C's before you paid for the goods, the T&C's specify the sale is only to businesses.

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 01:12:06 PM

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?

Do you have a EU tax number?

If YES, then it´s possible for KnC to say that it was a B2B sale.
If NO and you paid EU tax on the sale from KnC, it´s B2C sale.

It´s that simple to be honest

No, I don't have a VAT ID, I'm not registered as a business anywhere and I have never run a business.
TBH, I am a bit nervous about it because my contract of employment forbids me to run a business.
I just want out and focus on other things.

What do you recommend? Take a lawyer who will prepare a letter to KnC asking for a refund?

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 10:39:26 AM

Quote from: mwizard on September 14, 2014, 07:59:18 AM

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps. For example 2009/125/EC. Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production. If you brought it for "economic purpose" you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law. For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.

I'm european and I'm proud that we have stronger regulations that make the life of cowboy-businesses difficult.

I have bought the bitcoin/litecoin miner as a hobbyist device. The intent was not to maximise profit or similar. I found mining fun and if there was . However, I am not going to run a potentially dangerous device in my private home.

The link you have sent is actually very interesting, thanks. It states:
"The majority of MS do not have any explicit rules on mixed transactions. However, some countries treat them as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries) or if the link to a business activity is only 'indirect' (Poland)."
So my (german) gut feeling about law and that the simply cannot easily declare me a business may be right and may also apply in Sweden.

It´s not possible for KnC to declare the sales B2B if you´re a European customer. They´re just lying and trying to sell the lie to you.
And don´t forget that European consumer law protects your product for 3 years if something goes wrong.
If you can prove that the problem was existing and not caused by you KnC is obliged by Swedish law to compensate you with a product that matches the original from their sortiment (You need the original receipt and to be the original buyer).

I guess it really boils down to whether I am a business or a consumer. It seems to be a grey area apparently.
Do you know where I could read and find out more about this?

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: mwizard on September 14, 2014, 07:59:18 AM

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps. For example 2009/125/EC. Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production. If you brought it for "economic purpose" you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law. For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.

I'm european and I'm proud that we have stronger regulations that make the life of cowboy-businesses difficult.

I have bought the bitcoin/litecoin miner as a hobbyist device. The intent was not to maximise profit or similar. I found mining fun and if there was . However, I am not going to run a potentially dangerous device in my private home.

The link you have sent is actually very interesting, thanks. It states:
"The majority of MS do not have any explicit rules on mixed transactions. However, some countries treat them as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries) or if the link to a business activity is only 'indirect' (Poland)."
So my (german) gut feeling about law and that the simply cannot easily declare me a business may be right and may also apply in Sweden.

lucazane

legendary

Activity: 1198

Merit: 1000

So the Titan is only 300Mh/s for 1100 Watts.

That less than I expected.

Why not ship one or two more modules to get 400 Mh/s like advertised ?

smoothrunnings

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 501

Quote from: mwizard on September 14, 2014, 07:59:18 AM

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 03:10:47 AM

Quote from: mwizard on September 13, 2014, 07:37:48 PM

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking. But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive. It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V. It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.

Yes, I see that and that's why I have written "may" need CE marking. However, why would a 12V halogen bulb have the CE marking?
.No, my case is not built on this and I don't need to include it. The consumer vs. business issue may be the most promising route. I think the fire hazard and low safety of their equipment simply adds to the case, as it is a very good reason for a consumer to cancel an order.

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps. For example 2009/125/EC. Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production. If you brought it for "economic purpose" you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law. For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.

Well said!

mwizard

full member

Activity: 203

Merit: 100

Quote from: jomay on September 14, 2014, 03:10:47 AM

Quote from: mwizard on September 13, 2014, 07:37:48 PM

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking. But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive. It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V. It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.

Yes, I see that and that's why I have written "may" need CE marking. However, why would a 12V halogen bulb have the CE marking?
.No, my case is not built on this and I don't need to include it. The consumer vs. business issue may be the most promising route. I think the fire hazard and low safety of their equipment simply adds to the case, as it is a very good reason for a consumer to cancel an order.

The halogen bulb needs a CE marking because the EU has directives covering the energy efficiency and labelling of lamps. For example 2009/125/EC. Lamp efficiency is a big issue in all countries.

With regard to taking legal action against KNC as a consumer, you may need to establishing you did not buy the bitcoin miner as an item of manufacture or production. If you brought it for "economic purpose" you appear to not be covered under EU consumer law. For a general overview of the EU definition of consumer see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/bibliotheque/briefing/2013/130477/LDM_BRI(2013)130477_REV1_EN.pdf.

I suggest you view your KNC preorder as an expensive lesson, put it behind you and get on with life.

btc_uzr

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

let's have some fun

Just ignore them.
Most of them live in places where consumer laws count less than in Europe.

Your chances are far better than they think or try to make you think.

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: smoothrunnings on September 13, 2014, 06:30:37 PM

Good luck is all I can say. But make sure you really look at the pros and cons of doing this and weigh in by asking yourself if it's really worth it in the end?

I hope you can find yourself a few wealthy people who are willing to go through with it. Notice I said wealthy and no rich? There is a difference between the two classes of people.

Yes I understand. That's why my main goal is to get a refund, and that should be very easy and cheap to test. After all I simply want to know whether I am a business or a consumer. In the UK I'd file a case at a small claims court, done. I'm not sure how to deal with it in Sweden.

Maybe you don't see it, but I'm actually investing quite a lot of my time for sth. that does not necessarily help only or primarily me. Otherwise I'd simply put pressure on KnC privately and accept any compensation and agree to not say anything anymore. Maybe I should do this.

jomay

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Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: mwizard on September 13, 2014, 07:37:48 PM

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking. But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive. It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V. It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.

Yes, I see that and that's why I have written "may" need CE marking. However, why would a 12V halogen bulb have the CE marking?
I am also wondering whether there are other regulations besides CE. A company cannot sell something clearly dangerous to its customers without warning.

The law and regulations also often don't like if they are "side-stepped" in a shady manner. That's what I meant with the missing PSU. Example: I have a free capital gains tax allowance per year. If I try to crystallize gains by selling and quickly buying again, then the tax man argues that this was only for tax reasons and hence void. I understand tax laws are of more interest, but I believe a similar principle may apply here.

Quote from: mwizard on September 13, 2014, 07:37:48 PM

Having to include an imaginary issue around KNC breaking the law over CE markings, because it does not also sell the power supplies, does not seem helpful to your case.

No, my case is not built on this and I don't need to include it. The consumer vs. business issue may be the most promising route. I think the fire hazard and low safety of their equipment simply adds to the case, as it is a very good reason for a consumer to cancel an order.

kingscrown

hero member

Activity: 672

Merit: 500

http://fuk.io - check it out!

http://fuk.io/knc-neptune-setup-guide-review-and-troubleshooting-35-terahash-bitcoin-miner/

full KNC troubleshooting guide by me

with help of few guys here

mwizard

full member

Activity: 203

Merit: 100

Quote from: jomay on September 13, 2014, 03:30:20 PM

Are you a KnCMiner customer, feel abused by their fraudulent business practices and and have considered a legal route? Did you query and got replies from consumer agencies?

Please check my threads and contribute if you can!

I'm collecting replies from authorities and lawyers, as well as collecting points that may be useful for legal action here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/contacting-authorities-regarding-kncminer-titan-neptune-781435

I've also started a thread to get an idea whether there is enough interest in a class action lawsuit:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/class-action-against-kncminercom-781422

In your thread on legal actions against KNC you say KNC boards need a CE marking. But only devices that fall within specific CE directives need CE markings.

I cannot see how the KNC miner falls under any directive. It is not a medical device. It uses 12V which is well under the directive limit of 50V. It is irrelevant where the 12V comes from.

You need to name which directive the miner falls under because only then will it be clear what the requirements are for that CE marking. Unless the miner falls under a specific CE directive it does not need a CE marking.

See http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/single-market-goods/cemarking/about-ce-marking/index_en.htm

Having to include an imaginary issue around KNC breaking the law over CE markings, because it does not also sell the power supplies, does not seem helpful to your case.

smoothrunnings

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 501

Advanced Tuning, as KNC calls it, on the Neppy's, if I go up to 500Mhz do I leave the voltages along on each die or do I need to lower or up them? If I need to up them what's been the best setting?

Thanks

smoothrunnings

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 501

Quote from: jomay on September 13, 2014, 05:42:26 PM

Quote from: smoothrunnings on September 13, 2014, 05:18:57 PM

Quote from: jomay on September 13, 2014, 03:30:20 PM

Are you a KnCMiner customer, feel abused by their fraudulent business practices and and have considered a legal route? Did you query and got replies from consumer agencies?

Please check my threads and contribute if you can!

I'm collecting replies from authorities and lawyers, as well as collecting points that may be useful for legal action here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/contacting-authorities-regarding-kncminer-titan-neptune-781435

I've also started a thread to get an idea whether there is enough interest in a class action lawsuit:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/class-action-against-kncminercom-781422

Make sure you confirm that this fraud is illegal in Sweden before you contact the authorities or you will be the biggest fool.

That's alright. I'd rather be a fool that speaks up than a fool that remains silent.
Also, if you have read through my thread you'd see that I collected a few points indicative for fraud.

Someone's got to get Sam Cole out of his Scam Hole!

Here is something to think about lawsuits takes YEARS and millions of dollars until they go to court and and or settlement is reached. Overseas lawsuits take even longer, because of where the parties are located. I knew someone growing up as a kid who's brother in the UK stole her half of her families fortune. Her brothers and sisters went to the same school's that Prince Charles went to at the same time he was attending; to give you some idea of their wealth. Anyhow 10 years into and there was still no resolution or settlement. She lived here in Canada as a Canadian Citizen while her brother lived in the UK. I am not sure when it did finally come to a close but the point is do you have the time and money and get into this wit KNC? I mean do you not think that KNC hasn't already been told by other angry people that they are gong to coming after them legally that they themselves haven't consulted their own lawyers?

Good luck is all I can say. But make sure you really look at the pros and cons of doing this and weigh in by asking yourself if it's really worth it in the end?

I hope you can find yourself a few wealthy people who are willing to go through with it. Notice I said wealthy and no rich? There is a difference between the two classes of people.

jomay

full member

Activity: 167

Merit: 100

Quote from: smoothrunnings on September 13, 2014, 05:18:57 PM

Quote from: jomay on September 13, 2014, 03:30:20 PM

Are you a KnCMiner customer, feel abused by their fraudulent business practices and and have considered a legal route? Did you query and got replies from consumer agencies?

Please check my threads and contribute if you can!

I'm collecting replies from authorities and lawyers, as well as collecting points that may be useful for legal action here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/contacting-authorities-regarding-kncminer-titan-neptune-781435

I've also started a thread to get an idea whether there is enough interest in a class action lawsuit:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/class-action-against-kncminercom-781422

Make sure you confirm that this fraud is illegal in Sweden before you contact the authorities or you will be the biggest fool.

That's alright. I'd rather be a fool that speaks up than a fool that remains silent.
Also, if you have read through my thread you'd see that I collected a few points indicative for fraud.

Someone's got to get Sam Cole out of his Scam Hole!

Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 252. (Read 3049515 times)