Topic: Syscoin vs Bitbay - page 10. (Read 13156 times)

Hello,

I thought I'd chime in the dicussion, we at Shadow love seeing good debate intertwined with the right amount of anger. I owe you a word of explanation before I start taking a piss at everyone.
First things first, when people from both sides of two or more projects get in a heavy debate, they are merely defending what they have created. Their own blood, sweat, tears and spirit went into creating it, so they will defend that without giving up. I think it is important to recognize that most of us here have dedicated quite some time to either project and that knowing that fact should be the basis for mutual respect. Well, I respect it, you can feel whatever you want.

Nonetheless, this shouldn't be used as reason not to criticize the other for their bullshit.

To start off, sebastien1234 I hope you are either drunk or high on meth when you typed that. If what you've said (read quote) is your true opinion, I advice you to withdraw from this forum and to never come back. You're in charge of the PR, so I've read, stick to it and don't ever get mixed in technical discussions until you are 100% sure about what you're saying.

Its blockchain based and not P2P (ever try to use torrents on a cellphone? Ouch)

This is first class bullshit right here people. A blockchain is distributed in a P2P fashion, so by that simple analogy your argument is destroyed.
A blockchain would require you to fully synced before you can participate in any trading, meaning P2P like torrents would actually be a faster system by MAGNITUDES.
I don't know if you're from some country that has never heard of Quadcore smartphones and internet speeds that exceed 100Mb/s but torrents on a cellphone are pretty darn fast, just as fast as a computer.

Escrow does not require parties to double deposit(think real world here, would a store and customer ever accept to double deposit?).
Again, it is clear that your knowledge on double deposits doesn't reach that far. If I remember correctly, BitBay uses a model of FULL double deposits, so you have to put up 100% as insurance. In a real world model that wouldn't even be necessary, an insurance deposit ranging of 10% to 20% should be enough to keep scammers out. The economics behind this find their roots in game theory, something which I won't bother to explain. But you need to keep account of the loss of cash flow that a scammer encounters, even with a 10% insurance deposit, the scammer will run out of funds.

You're a good guy, but don't give people like me a chance to publicly ruin your credibility of the technical understanding. Bad for you own PR, just my two cents.


Is being blockchain based actually workable with this kind of thing? I mean if syscoin got any real user base would it not just start consuming enormous resources/space? how big will the block chain end up being?
That's a very good question, we at Shadow have been crunching the numbers for our own system. You definetly need pruning, does SYS do this?

Without pruning, obviously not. Even our system which only stores listing by default for 48 hours has problems with this when we check the numbers.
A simple scaling check shows that blockchain based listings don't scale. Say you have about 10,000 listings with each about 3 pictures on average with a 200KB, and I'm being optimistic because I truely hope sys is "downgrading" the images, because it is more likely to be in the range of 7.46MB if they don't.
10 000 * 200 KB = 2GB of data at a given moment.

Now 10 000 listings can easily be made by less than a thousand merchants, so no sys probably will not scale. Disregard anyone trying to convince you otherwise, anyone trying to should do it by crunching the numbers like I did.

There are ways of mitigating these problems, but by using blockchain tech (every node must store everything) their only way out of scaling issues is by inventing a lite mode.
They have worked themselves in a corner by the blockchain, one which I doubt will ever scale to a wider angle.


Seems sys could never scale to any real world usage? or could it?
Bitcoin can't even do that, so you can't demand that syscoin pulls it off.


I haven't even gotten to my own critique to sys, mostly being their attitude towards "getting the job done, even if it involves leaving out core principles".
Their DirectBTC feature makes use of centralized components and don't even make a fair mention of being that way, pretty bad when you're promoting blockchain tech. It's feasable to do it in a decentralized manner, but they decided to rush it.

Don't get me started on the privacy issues of sys, you'll just blame me for shilling ShadowCash.

Lovely chat ol' chaps.
Keep on working on what you love as long as it makes you happy. Make sure you stay healthy and don't risk running into a burn out, it ain't easy for open source devs.
Everyone gets shitload of critique, but when you're working so hard for free, it can get heavy on your mental health.

Greetings,
Kewde

Yeah... Good point , Dadon.
Haven't been following shadow lately. Can't say I agree with the goal of trying to create silkroad 2.0, but 'to each his own'. I believe in the long run, there a much bigger market for pursuing legitimate business which both BitBay and Syscoin are aiming at.

I know the anon approach probably creates the need for a lot more coding, which may I ask - how is the ring signature technology progressing?
You guys getting any closer to finalizing it?

Definitely lots of innovation out there to choose from for people from all aspects of life!

Yes, the client is released with all those features minus road map ones  

I guess you not knowing that explains your reaction in earlier post. I know you and David talk. I also think they will serve different audiences.
You can test the currency thing anytime. It's there. As I said you need Bay to use DDE. It is of course also possible to just use the market to post offers, and use someone trusted by both parties for escrow, but we don't encourage that. Besides that would only work for small communities like a coin. It can never scale.

Why are you so keen to see the source?? all i see from the syscoin club is demands to see the source code. The projects are comparable NOW. You can't say because you can not see the source code that you can not compare the functionality and features.

SYScoin is it better than bitbay - i don't think so. However both projects above and beyond most on here. I don't think we will know which is truly better until they are experiencing wide real world usage. I like bays approach more but if syscoin says there is no bloat by doing it their way that too is rather interesting. I'm long bay at this point and of course at this price point you would have to be kind of crazy to not see that as having the better financial returns from this point.

To those rumbling on about the SCAM i don't think you understand what you are talking about. You do not penalize a community because it has been scammed and had its value extracted and those scamming have long gone also trying to destroy the project as they left. That is stupid. That's like saying your neighbours down the street who were burgled and had their home burned down are bad people for trying to rebuild it and should not be trusted?? what??

SCAM coins that should be avoided are the ones where the scammers are the ones running and benefiting from the project.

Shadowmarket is coming..and there is a reason we have taken our time!   

You're telling me that the client has been released with all those features minus road map ones on your chart ypu just posted?

Scared of competition? I've repeated multiple times that we are lucky to have both projects.. and they will serve different audiences imo.

The decision to use arbiters was after the conversation I had with Vitalik buterin and I was leaning towards dde but held off as we came to a consensus that it's not the best idea at such an early stage. This was reiterated by the syscoin team during our design meetings. There is a path fwd for dde just not yet.

Me and David talk regularly and provide feedback to each other.. we are on same page about alot of things.. obviously his vision is a bit different in medium term than mine so as a result ypu may have a different user group in each project.. lmk when I can test the currency thing with dde I'll have to see to believe in terms of usability I know it's technically possible what you are saying.

Also to add to this, BitBay investors may praise the fact that the source is closed but in essence, closed-source cannot be decentralized, until it's source becomes open, BitBay will never provide a decentralized marketplace.

How can you claim that Bay is not released? And please don't give me that crap about open source. By that definition a lot of software that we all use daily isn't released.
Actually we released a working beta a long time before sys. And we stayed in beta for more than a year to make sure all bugs are fixed.
Windows client is now in release version. Mac and Linux stay in beta until we are certain that there are no OS specific bugs. We really don't want to have mishaps like locking up someone's coins, do we?
So I guess the question isn't really how you can claim Bay is not released, but why you claim it. Do you fear the competition that much?
You should not. I agree the projects are partly complementary, although there are some areas where we are in competition. I don't see a problem with that though. There is plenty of room for both projects. In fact I believe success for one project will help the other project because the real challenge is to get Joe and Jane used to the idea of using platforms like Bay and sys.

Of course Bay is out with the features we claim to have. Anyone can check that by downloading our client

Bay can allow payment with any currency because we use DDE. As stated you need Bay for the deposit. But payment can be in any currency or even clams if you prefer because the DDE takes care of the safety in the deal. So if you want you can open up a new market channel for say Dodge, and offer anything for sale with payment in Doge.
When you post your offer you make your deposit, when buyer takes the offer he makes his deposit. Buyer sends Doge, seller sends item, and when both are happy they release deposit.

Edit: I know multisig as technology exists in sys. I assume you must be using it in your escrow. But in the above I was talking about multisig in the meaning of being able to use two keys on my wallet. To my knowledge that is not implementet in sys yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

I remembering a shady story with Bitbay.

Is that so? Or is it that you don't like what a comparison between BitBay and sys looks like?

for someone with over 1000 comments you really are clueless.

Also for a 'pump and dump' it needs a pump . . i thought you would have known that too!

Bitbay turned out to be a Bobsurplus pump and dump.  But the dev is still trying to save the project.  He should just drop it and move on. 

wow what a response! I didnt think i would get any replies. So do you think it is just because syscoin is on Polo that it is more popular? I didnt realize Bitbay was as advance as it is. Well done to both teams. I like this debate

Damn it! I lost my EURUSD bet. If i don't pay up the difference I risk losing 99% more.
Oh well. No way to renege now.
My counterparty just earned price difference of .7% from escrow negotiated starting price based on a 15000 Bay deposit. So I own him 105 BitBays and since I lost I cover the anti-dust fee.

So should I pay him the 105 Bays or should I renege and lose 15,000 Bays?
I think I'll pay.

Up next... wanting to go hot and heavy on a "long" position based on a Cisco hunch and backed by DDE tech.
Anyone willing to take my offer let me know! I be waiting in the Client to negotiate price and time frame.

Sometimes there is always going to have to be a element of trust. There are some that argue ethereum should have remained closed source for a time so the banks etc could not have immediately have cloned it. Perhaps there would have been some benefits to bitcoin having remained closed source. However, starting off back then closed source would probably have slowed adoption greatly. I'm not sure we should always quote satoshi and bitcoin as good comparisons or models for every new project. I mean David Zimbeck is hardly unknown like satoshi was when btc was first launched. We know exactly who he is in real life. There is accountability. Satoshi well who knows what his exact purpose of creating btc was, perhaps their purposes are not exactly the same. There are many different factors here so I can't say just because satoshi acted one way with BTC all coders should act exactly the same way with their projects. A delay in releasing source is a good idea in some cases.



Well everyone has different opinions. I just hope that he does not open source it after all his hard work just to see other coders copy and paste it. Several projects have kept their coding closed for quite a time to allow a period of time to pass and for updated versions to be created and improved before releasing the v1. Allowing themselves the headstart such hardwork and dedication to the task deserve. Mostly I only see others demanding open source from a well know project/dev with years behind them if they want to gain easily from work they have not done themselves. (not that I'm saying this appies to you in this case since you have your project based on a different method entirely)

Some will want open sourced in this arena but several successful projects have gone closed source and I think it has contributed to their success.

I've heard you are also a great coder/designer and it was your choice to open source your code as you went along. I feel the fact you did this and kept your community appraised on your ideas each step of the way has lead to your recognition and adoption. That is one approach.

I hope David does not choose this route and I don't think he will. Bitbay is rather interesting and rather different from many other projects. I think it's real value will become apparent over time with real world usage. He has been working very hard without saying all that much so far. However, he seems a very nice person and to my understanding a very smart guy too.

I wish syscoin well, I believe both should be top tier by the time they are done. There need not be an "there can be only one" type scenario. There is plenty of room for many market places. Let's live and let live. It's fine to compare like I say both you and David seem to get on well...let's just see how things turn out in the future. You do seem a very pleasant person so perhaps I should not have said it was a pure copycat of bitbay ..perhaps since it was because I'd not heard of sys before and then it appeared (to me) with a lot of similar functons as bitbay (which i had known about for 2years). If you had intended to do all the things with sys at the start anyway regardless of whether bitbay existed then fair enough only you can know if this is the case or not. I hope both projects get fair recognition  for such useful/functional projects.It's perhaps a shame you and David had not just started one project together years ago and worked together on something. It may have been something better than either one.

So Satoshi shouldn't have open sourced bitcoin? How would a dev go and prove it is doing what is supposed to be doing, trust the EXE that your running on your windows even though your virus scanner is telling you its bad? Anyways if someone clones your codebase its not a bad thing, the base will always become stronger because the stems all depend from the base. You have to think about it the other way around. Yes bitbay has interesting features but like I said let's see the code with some tests and then we can put them side by side.. I believe they will serve different niches in the same sector but thats just a guess.

I could have done the same thing and kept Syscoin closed source, but I kept in the spirit of open-sourced development and Bitcoin by open-sourcing and showing all what I am working on every day. Closed source only makes sense if you a) depend on it for revenue and b) pretty much operate a company with DV test cycles (integration and unit tests) internally to ensure the code is bug-free from major fires. You would probably get preferablly multiple invested customers to use it and sign off on the beta/rc candidates as well. It doesn't make much sense here. If someone copies it and markets it better, heck good for them for pumping and dumping a new coin, but the base is what will retain any value.

I don't think nor do I hope that the bitbay code will be open sourced any time soon. If it can do what it promises to do and scales out as it should be able to then I sincerely hope david will not turn this code out into the wild to be copy and pasted by any and every other dev out there in 5 mins.

I hope he will do as the bitbay community wishes and keeps it closed source for a good long period of time and perhaps released when they are several generations ahead.

Sys is good and is at this stage more polished from the outside...but I feel bitbay will be a superior design in terms of scalability and resource efficiency (that may prove to be a false assumption of course) . Let's wait and see I guess. Both need to bring on lots of real world usage to test them out. Having 1000's perhaps 100'000's to millions of users will certainly be the acid test for both. Best to have some of each but I'm heavier bitbay right now.

For me its considered released when I can read the code and get a picture of whats going on, I dont even bother looking the GUI until after. Generally it's good practice to direct developers to tests that show capabilities of the system and edge cases... not only does it increase code coverage and quality (bringing it to a production ready state where it needs to be when money is involved) but also gives others a chance to know what's going on without sifting through thousands of lines of code.

I'm sure it will come... its a great sector to be in thats for sure... decentralized markets are much needed for crypto in general. The velocity of money is what will create value for the underlying tokens being used.

Bitbay isn't released???

Bitbay has been in public beta for more than a year for windows. It's now out in release version!
Mac and linux are still in beta until we are sure there are no OS specific bugs
We will of course keep adding features and make it even more user friendly, and those updates will come quite often now that the groundwork is done thoroughly.

You can download it from our OP https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitbay-official-bitbay-thread-smart-contracts-decentralized-markets-rolling-peg-890531 or our site http://bitbay.market/

Have fun