Topic: The 2.0 throwdown thread - page 3. (Read 21035 times)

That number was just transaction verifications per second, as in blockchain sync. They very carefully omitted the definition of what they were actually describing.

Reading through the comments on the linked page, and given I felt 100 TPS would be more believable and I never even was aware that Bitshares admitted 100 TPS, I urge the OP to edit his chart and put 100 TPS (TX/s) for Bitshares. Also I believe that 100 TPS is not a figure in the wild with DDoS attacks. I suspect the actual figure "not in a controlled environment" will be even lower than 100 TX/s.

Also by the way Stan Larimar writes about the 100,000 TX/s goal, it sounds like their figures come from assuming that all the witness nodes are being run by the corporation with a consistent level of hardware.

I don't trust any of this. Pushing everything through one node has issues.

Also I don't think any of this addressed block chain scaling. This is about TX/s only.

Thanks for starting and contributing to this thread guys. Interesting read, I have lots to study.

Here's me giving BTS grief on the TPS issue:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12620412

Some useful information contained there....looks to me like BTS are throwing security and stability out the window to get close to the 100,000 TPS they've been hyping, though it turns out that the 100,000 TPS figure is based on running a lab benchmark, and will only be achievable in the real world on next-genreration hardware and infrastructure.

@rdnkjdi: Yeps, that's Emunie, which has been in development for a very, very long time.

Ahhh - I'm very interested to see where this thread goes.

There is some guy claiming VISA level transactions by using "partions" with nodes. 

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/emunie-the-fastest-crypto-currency-1191535

It seems like this is a project that's been in the pipeline for years with the dev trying to do a presale at one point?  Has anyone looked into it much that feels like doing a good tl;dr

Everything I have written about Bitshares 2.0 needs to be subject to discussion. I will just add that in terms of putting a caveat on your table, the high TPS rate claimed is what the CPU can do (per an interview I listened to of Daniel on Letstalkbitcoin). To get a real world test must stress this network with real DoS attacks to claim with confidence what the real throughput will be. They funnel the network into one node every 3s. It will be required to have many nodes involved to solve this scaling problem and if they all must to talk to each other to propagate every transaction, then may have network communication scaling issues at that high TPS. If they instead make the propagation of transaction data hierarchical then may have DoS issues. This is not an easy thing to solve and must stress it under all these conditions to start to see the issues holistically.

I do believe they can get higher TPS than Bitcoin can do currently but they have issues to work out or detail how they already worked them out. And they need to explain more details and have more testnet modeling revealed. If they were claiming 100 TPS with 10s blocks, I might be more prone to accept that they've actually modeled all the major issues. But that 3000s in 3s looks like hype and lack of actual real world modeling. I haven't actually gone digging in the Bitshares forum threads looking for more information. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me with more details.

I am going to be adding my comments about each of these coins in this post. Please check back on this post from time-to-time as I will be updating it as I complete my research gathering process. I will correct any incorrect information as I learn or it is pointed out to me. The statements below are what I think to be true based on the level of reading I've done to this point.

BitShares 2.0

• Any engineer should know the antithesis of reliability is lack of fault-tolerance, i.e. depending on only 1 node for each block validation. Variability in the network hiccups, DoS-resistance, hardware, and other aspects of witnesses will mean that some can't keep up with the 3s block time every time or they drop transactions and transactions need to propagated to further witnesses and blocks. So either will have unreliability on the real-time promise, and/or this will push approval voting for witnesses that are centralized by those who have the resources to defend their nodes and maintain uptime and performance loads. These issues don't matter as much with longer block times and/or lower expectation of tps, but if you are seriously expecting 1000s of tps in 3s block times sequenced (funneled) into a queue of witnesses then issues will amplify exponentially not just linearly.
• As far as I know, the 3s block time with 1000 tps will be vulnerable to DoS attacks in terms of incoming transactions, because it is known a priori which witness will be producing each block. All PoS shares system suffer this issue, but less of an issue until you start to go for very fast block times, very high tps rates, and very small transacted values for microtransactions with real-time dependency on performance. In PoW the winning witness is unknown a priori and is randomized. Thus if ever Bitshares becomes a serious competitor to a properly designed high tps system, you can probably expect DDoS attacks on Bitshares causing it to become unreliable and suffer outages that belie any claim of real-time performance. I am sure many users have noticed significant delays and downtime of the Bitcointalk.org site due to DoS attacks. The system could be (re-)designed so each witness delegates transaction verification to a large distributed group of transaction verification servers (e.g. perhaps the other witnesses) and only accepts connections from those servers blacklisting any that DoS, but this means the same transaction can be sent to all the servers thus exponentially increasing network bandwidth requirements and the cost that must be charged to fees. Complex coordination algorithms might be attempted but complexity is increasing, so normally resilience suffers and corner cases proliferate. As the transacted value of the valid microtransaction decreases, the DoS cost per transaction increases proportionally. Viewing this as an analogy, it is well known that in multithreaded systems that contention (coordination) load can starve actual throughput and even to the point of gridlock. This appears to me to be fundamental issue that can't be fixed within the design of round-robin rotation through preassigned order of witnesses. Typically all solutions to coordination and even in Bitcoin's case lead to increased centralization and I am sure Bitshares will find this to be true. They've already centralized by adopting reputation and voting schemes in order to get a deterministic node for each block in order to eliminate network coordination load that plagues PoW system but they just pushed the problem onto DoS and they will need to centralize more to address this fundamental issue.
• PoS systems are inherently more centralized because reputation and voting are power vacuum paradigms, meaning that power amasses more power and those who don't play the game theory for power lose power. Democracy is always corrupt for this reason. Thus these systems are the antithesis of the reason we are hear for crypto which is to have trustless protocols without power vacuums that can't be gamed by those who aggregate power. Now I am aware that PoW has analogous failure modes in that coordination load is driving centralization and the 25 - 51% attack exists, but just because that is so it doesn't mean PoS is a solution. And I maybe someone actually has a solution. We will have to wait for that solution to appear and make a choice between lesser evils in the meantime.
• DPOS claims[1] that by having the stakeholders in the system vote, that the controlling group which is the corporation comprising the developers is not in control. Well publicly listed entities allow shareholders to vote, and that doesn't absolve the classification of investment securities. Ostensibly Bitshares is trying to not run afoul of the criminal and civil liability that results from unregistered investment securities, but my interpretation of the law[2] is they may be still acting as a controlling group since investors depend on them to add value to the investment and the future performance of the investment (again I am not making any declaration that they are or are not, I am raising awareness on this issue for potential investors and participants).
  
  

  [1]

  https://bitshares.org/technology/delegated-proof-of-stake-consensus/ Quote This design was chosen to ensure that delegates technically have no direct power and that all changes to the network parameters are ultimately approved by the stakeholders. This is done to protect the delegates against regulations that may apply to managers or administrators of cryptocurrencies. Under DPOS, we can truly say that the administrative authority rests in the hands of the users, rather than either the delegates or witnesses. crypti PR full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Crypti Public Relations Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 04:26:52 AM #206 Quote from: BitcoinNational on October 21, 2015, 04:15:03 AM If you want to be Crypto 2.0 then making NOISE is part of the .biz Can't do that then don't ask me to take you seriously. NXT XMR Digibyte etc ... can cause a commotion ... free advice ... make sure Crypti media ... blogs in detail a full and complete report ... and make sure it gets published and SEO ranked for "Crypti vs. Cryptsy" ... you need a record to back up your claims ... so again .. show not tell. I'm a long time member of Nxt, but if it would be able to create a big ruckus, then it wouldn't be at $6.xM marketcap. Down from over $70M. BitcoinNational legendary Activity: 1470 Merit: 1010 Join The Blockchain Revolution In Logistics Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 04:15:03 AM #205 If you want to be Crypto 2.0 then making NOISE is part of the .biz Can't do that then don't ask me to take you seriously. NXT XMR Digibyte etc ... can cause a commotion ... free advice ... make sure Crypti media ... blogs in detail a full and complete report ... and make sure it gets published and SEO ranked for "Crypti vs. Cryptsy" ... you need a record to back up your claims ... so again .. show not tell. crypti PR full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Crypti Public Relations Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 04:07:03 AM #204 Quote from: BitcoinNational on October 21, 2015, 04:03:38 AM "And yes, Cryptsy isn't working. It's not our fault, it's the fault of Cryptsy. We are contacting them since months with no answers. They are going down, as you can read everywhere on the internet. Cryptsy is the next MtGox." well ... pot calling kettle black ... we will see in time ... you guys have the means to raise a ruckus if that was the case for real ... but because of that minor detail ... i advise all a great deal of caution.  Still I give you credit where credit is due ... you have a platform and an actual market traded asset. Then please say me how we can "raise a ruckus". We wrote many tweets to BigVern and the CryptsyWallet dude, several PMs to BitJohn here on BTT, dozens of support tickets, asked on reddit, Cryptsy long-time-users asked trollbox moderators and got in contact with several individuals via email.. All for nothing. BitcoinNational legendary Activity: 1470 Merit: 1010 Join The Blockchain Revolution In Logistics Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 04:03:38 AM #203 "And yes, Cryptsy isn't working. It's not our fault, it's the fault of Cryptsy. We are contacting them since months with no answers. They are going down, as you can read everywhere on the internet. Cryptsy is the next MtGox." well ... pot calling kettle black ... we will see in time ... you guys have the means to raise a ruckus if that was the case for real ... but because of that minor detail ... i advise all a great deal of caution.  Still I give you credit where credit is due ... you have a platform and an actual market traded asset. crypti PR full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Crypti Public Relations Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 03:54:56 AM #202 Quote from: BitcoinNational on October 21, 2015, 03:51:42 AM Quote from: jwinterm on September 16, 2015, 07:37:12 AM Quote from: MemoryShock on September 16, 2015, 01:46:49 AM Where's Maid? I think it deserves to be in this conversation... It's not released, afaik. I am leaning towards removing both Syscoin (most advanced features not released) and Crypti (closed-source), as well. I'm skeptical MAID will ever see the light of day, honestly. Hasn't it been under development since like 2006? CRYPTI ... some asset created called 'Sia' seems popular ... so at least they've created an asset within that platform ... but why has the wallet on cryptsy been locked for about 15 months? What are you talking about? Crypyti is a crypto-currency and decentralized application platform. Sia is integrated into the user interface, to make it possible to use it as a storage method for decentralized applications. You can develop any JavaScript decentralized application you want, each gets its own sidechain with its own consensus. We give the developers the necessary tools and make this whole process very easy. Check out our testnet at http://testnet.crypti.me/ , if you click on Dapp Store you see that we have 2 example dapps in there already.  And yes, Cryptsy isn't working. It's not our fault, it's the fault of Cryptsy. We are contacting them since months with no answers. They are going down, as you can read everywhere on the internet. Cryptsy is the next MtGox. BitcoinNational legendary Activity: 1470 Merit: 1010 Join The Blockchain Revolution In Logistics Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 03:51:42 AM #201 Quote from: jwinterm on September 16, 2015, 07:37:12 AM Quote from: MemoryShock on September 16, 2015, 01:46:49 AM Where's Maid? I think it deserves to be in this conversation... It's not released, afaik. I am leaning towards removing both Syscoin (most advanced features not released) and Crypti (closed-source), as well. I'm skeptical MAID will ever see the light of day, honestly. Hasn't it been under development since like 2006? SYS ... i don't get it ... what is it? what does it do?  show me don't tell me it's been along time dan-0 MAID  ... same ... what is it?  I get some large cap 'asset' that trades like wildfire but why?  And if Omni/Master are shutting down their exchange well that just doesn't bode well in the greater picture. CRYPTI ... some asset created called 'Sia' seems popular ... so at least they've created an asset within that platform ... but why has the wallet on cryptsy been locked for about 15 months? point is ... enough talking ... get to creating a working exchange/platform with assets of real value trading on it. CP is the only one doing the walk AFIK.  NXT is a step behind, and it serves their interests to put some pressure on SYS. The rest in mostly vapors in the ethere-sphere ... dan-0! crypti PR full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Crypti Public Relations Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 03:33:03 AM #200 Quote from: 50cent_rapper on October 21, 2015, 03:05:52 AM Quote from: crypti PR on October 21, 2015, 02:08:44 AM Right now we mostly advertised it on cryptocurrency sites. That is waste of time.    50cent_rapper legendary Activity: 1344 Merit: 1000 Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 03:05:52 AM #199 Quote from: crypti PR on October 21, 2015, 02:08:44 AM Right now we mostly advertised it on cryptocurrency sites. That is waste of time.  crypti PR full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Crypti Public Relations Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 21, 2015, 02:08:44 AM #198 Quote from: jwinterm on October 20, 2015, 08:22:26 PM Quote from: crypti PR on October 20, 2015, 12:13:54 PM Quote from: jwinterm on October 06, 2015, 08:56:46 PM OK, will update syscoin and crypti in next few days. Just a friendly reminder to note that Crypti is open source since a few weeks. I know, I know, need to update. Have you guys gotten any good entries to DAPP contest yet? Don't worry. It was just a friendly reminder. Thank you for updating it. We have about 5 developers asking us questions. We are ramping up the marketing on Node.js and JavaScript websites in the coming days. Right now we mostly advertised it on cryptocurrency sites. jwinterm legendary Activity: 3136 Merit: 1116 Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 20, 2015, 11:06:21 PM #197 OK, small update - Crypti is opensourced, Syscoin has beta marketplace, Nxt has some bitcoin atm using them as sidechain, and I updated my coins I own section. jwinterm legendary Activity: 3136 Merit: 1116 Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 20, 2015, 08:22:26 PM #196 Quote from: crypti PR on October 20, 2015, 12:13:54 PM Quote from: jwinterm on October 06, 2015, 08:56:46 PM OK, will update syscoin and crypti in next few days. Just a friendly reminder to note that Crypti is open source since a few weeks. I know, I know, need to update. Have you guys gotten any good entries to DAPP contest yet? crypti PR full member Activity: 154 Merit: 100 Crypti Public Relations Re: The 2.0 throwdown thread October 20, 2015, 12:13:54 PM #195 Quote from: jwinterm on October 06, 2015, 08:56:46 PM OK, will update syscoin and crypti in next few days. Just a friendly reminder to note that Crypti is open source since a few weeks. 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