Topic: The 2.0 throwdown thread - page 6. (Read 21052 times)

Could you add smart contracts to the list, too? Would be nice to know what POS coin has it implemented already.

Each op code (instruction) consumes a fee, so an infinite loop will need "infinite" amount, but even so there is a hardcoded max number of steps (op codes) each AT program could run on each block.

OK, you convinced me - I'll leave Automated Transactions and Turing complete lumped together for now. What is the method to prevent an infinite loop being run in Burst or Qora's Turing complete scripting/instruction set? Just the transaction fee on each "instruction"? Is there a fee market on Burst and Qora a la Ethereum, or a hard-coded fee for each instruction/script/transaction?

Well - if you are referring to a "programming language" you should understand that AT is a "virtual CPU". So it is not a high-level language but is a "machine code" (and it should be noted that Ethereum is also not a high-level language but is a VM which is an approach that I think was far less elegant).

So - if you accept that things like RISC chips are "Turing complete" then it should be obvious that AT is (I even gave you the link to a "single instruction virtual CPU" that is "Turing complete" to show just how simple it is to achieve this).

If you don't accept that CPUs (and thus "virtual CPUs") are "Turing complete" then clearly we have nothing further to discuss.

I did, in the post, quoting specifically.

Cheers

Graham

Please point out exactly (technically) what is wrong as well as imprecise as just saying that something is *wrong as well as imprecise* doesn't make it so.

The AT machine code supports jumping, subroutines, stacks, conditional logic and memory and this is enough to be able to run "any program" in the sense that you could write a C++ compiler with the AT "virtual CPU" as its platform (I assume you are not going to deny that C++ is "Turing complete") and in fact that is one of the potential projects being considered (although we do not have millions of dollars in funding to pay for such work at this stage).

If you haven't read so please check this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer and you'll learn that it is so "easy to be Turing complete" that even a "single op code" machine can be so. Basically Bitcoin's Script was intentionally built to not be "Turing complete" as it is actually harder to do that (is has several special checks to make sure it can't accidentally end up looping and numerous op codes were actually removed due to their potential to cause trouble).

There is no "special magic sauce" required in order to be "Turing complete" but just the ability to have conditional logic, variables and loops (all of which AT has).

If you think that a mathematical proof of being "Turing complete" is needed then please show me where Ethereum have provided this and I'll get a math guy to write an equivalent document for AT.

When you read the specs of any CPU it doesn't come with a mathematical proof about being "Turing complete" but instead looks just like the specification that was created for AT (i.e. documenting the instruction set and other key features such as word size, etc.).

So how on earth can we ever create "Turing complete" programs if we are using compilers and interpreters that are running on "Turing incomplete" CPUs?

Interesting, JBC. I'd heard about this t0 project, but didn't realize that it was already live...

Edit: I just went to their site, http://t0.com/ , and it looks like every other bootstrap crypto site I've ever seen

Overstock used to maintain a wikia on the 2.0 projects.  Overstock discontinued maintaining their wikia and later launched their own ledger called tØ.  

tØ is a blockchain ledger but not a cryptocurrency nor a solutions platform for the public.  It is not a "2.0" and not a "1.0" project but something entirely else: "blockchain securities ledger" best describes it.

tØ was designed to do one thing: securities listings.   tØ already has 10 stocks listed on it but it is not accessible to the public.  I don't think Overstock will ever make tØ public for download.  As far as I can tell tØ is closed source and that means most companies would never use it.  Would you list your company's equity on something that could have backdoors and other vulnerabilities?  There's no reason to when the future will probably have an open source securities ledger.

Great work on this table.  It is really coming together well.   I can see this thread becoming a major focus point in the future. 

This is my sentiment as well. I'm probably going to split AT and Turing complete into two different rows on the next iteration.

I'll add a row for aliasing as well, and remove that from the unique features for Syscoin.

Also, sorry Sebastien256, missed that one. I'll add those NXT services next go-around as well.

Unfortunately, the only description that either DDG (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Turing+site%3Aciyam.org) or I can find in the CIYAM docs is gibberish:

http://ciyam.org/at/at.html Automated Transactions Specification

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness Turing completeness



CIYAM's "specification" document is wrong as well as imprecise, ATs in themselves are not Turing complete and scarequotes won't make it so. The document, if it aspires to meet the requirements of a specification, should contain the precise details of the features ensuring Turing completeness of the programming language in which the ATs are expressed.

I can understand why people might want to distinguish sharply between ATs and a Turing complete scripting language.


Cheers

Graham

also qora has aliasing

Nxt also has alias tech, so it is not unique to syscoin.

http://nxt.org/about/alias-system/


I think other blockchain 2.0 has this ability to, I'm just not sure which one.

@jwinterm,

From the table update you just made, I think you miss one of my post. 

Thanks you for compiling the data.

Thanks for info and suggestions

Table updated with Syscoin, CoinoUSD, Qora founder, and I also added some links at the bottom of the table (and date of last update).

I'm still thinking about removing Crypti since it's closed source. I don't think any of the technology can really be verified if the source isn't available. I will try and see what the timeframe is for them to release source code.

Lemme know if you have any other info, suggestions, suggested reading, cat pictures, links, corrections, etc.

Not yet, as far as I know. But it is to be planned for the upcoming releases. I'll ask a Qora developer.

Is there a cross chain decentralized exchange available for Burst/Qora?

If his name were related to the topic, would the topic be called the "2.0 throwdown thread"?

Qora is a great coin AT's before ETH.

Burst DOES have turing complete AT's, if you would actually read http://ciyam.org/at. I don't know who is saying the at's aren't turing complete....whoever is saying that needs to go and rtfm

But I'll make it easy for you all:


Burst implemented it, and so did Qora, however Burst was first to do so.

If no one can pronounce his name, does it still qualify as not anonymous?

Complete open source, yes! Code can be found here https://github.com/Qoracoin/Qora