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Topic: The effect the mixer ban has had on the forum. - page 8. (Read 4426 times)

member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
For now. Cash is also on borrowed time. We should appreciate having cash while we still can.
Fiat cash? Perhaps. Cash in general can't just go extinct. Black market can't just go extinct.

FIAT cash of course. What other cash is there? Would you call CBDC “cash”?  I wouldn’t.

Edit: ok maybe I would, but only till they find a more suitable name for that crap. Shitcoin suits better imo.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 2017
Lol.

Well, I see the conversation has drifted to Bitcoin philosophy I would say: privacy, DEX, taint etc.  I'm not saying it's off topic, I just think it's a natural drift resulting from how the conversation has been flowing.

Back to the initial topic, I don't think that if for example I ran out of campaign here I would teleport there although you never know what may happen in the future. But as I keep an open mind, from time to time I will keep taking a look at what is going on over there, and at the moment two things catch my attention:

icopress has launched another mixer campaign there, and he seems to be dominating, as at the moment he manages four mixer campaigns, to Royse777's two AB's and julerz12's one.

Seven mixer campaigns, even if they pay less, are not bad at all, eh? It seems to me that the admin there must be rubbing his hands together.

According to a post by examplens on that forum, altcoinstalk already had significant growth between last October and December. We'll have to see how things went at the beginning of the year, as I think the mixer campaigns started on January 1st (I haven't checked if they were all).

So it seems to me that they are very happy with the teleported members over there.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
For now. Cash is also on borrowed time. We should appreciate having cash while we still can.
Fiat cash? Perhaps. Cash in general can't just go extinct. Black market can't just go extinct. It simply can't.

From my bank's perspective, receiving money from different unknown IBAN accounts is much more questionable than receiving money from an established centralized exchange. The same with sending money.
Cash has different privacy problems.
I agree these solutions are far from ideal, but we've taken it to the extreme scenario that privacy coins are illegal, all non-KYC bitcoins are tainted and unacceptable, and banks will freeze your account the moment you receive money from a non-KYC exchange.

You can't even call these "decentralized exchanges" if they possess something the government can attack and take it down. Decentralized means cannot be attacked or taken down.
The exchange is decentralized, not the bank. The bank is controlled by the government.
member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
You can't even call these "decentralized exchanges" if they possess something the government can attack and take it down. Decentralized means cannot be attacked or taken down.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
How are those decentralized exchanges gonna cash you out without knowing your name and IBAN? People who do these transactions will be targeted this time. When people move to dex, the volume will skyrocket there. I don’t think you can get in and out so easily when that happens.
You will still trade normally by handing over your IBAN. If things become ever stricter than that, and they start freezing your bank account because of this, there is still cash.
From my bank's perspective, receiving money from different unknown IBAN accounts is much more questionable than receiving money from an established centralized exchange. The same with sending money.
Cash has different privacy problems.

For now. Cash is also on borrowed time. We should appreciate having cash while we still can.
The next step would be going back to barter: I give you Bitcoin if you buy me a new TV. It's not very convenient though.
member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
there is still cash.

For now. Cash is also on borrowed time. We should appreciate having cash while we still can.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
I'd say that would be the day to abandon pools Wink
Sure, but pools are an integral part of Bitcoin. If we experienced a 51% attack, which is either ignoring 1% of the blocks or replacing a chain that contains an OFAC sanctioned transaction, then I'd have lost trust on the integrity of the system. The whole concept relies on the theory that honest hash rate overthrows malicious. Double-spending is prevented under that assumption.

How are those decentralized exchanges gonna cash you out without knowing your name and IBAN? People who do these transactions will be targeted this time. When people move to dex, the volume will skyrocket there. I don’t think you can get in and out so easily when that happens.
You will still trade normally by handing over your IBAN. If things become ever stricter than that, and they start freezing your bank account because of this, there is still cash.
member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
Monero is an option and as I understand it, they can't go after the miners because the miners don't know what they are mining but they can go after the exchanges this time because they are also paying taxes and nearly all of them enforcing the KYC rules which kills the purpose of owning monero in the first place.
Which would be the point where people would start bypassing KYC and migrate to decentralized exchanges.

How are those decentralized exchanges gonna cash you out without knowing your name and IBAN? People who do these transactions will be targeted this time. When people move to dex, the volume will skyrocket there. I don’t think you can get in and out so easily when that happens.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
The problem is if pools ever manage to reorg for the sake of censoring, which, as I had outlined there, would be the day to abandon Bitcoin.
I'd say that would be the day to abandon pools Wink

Pools are central point of failures, I get it. But, Bitcoin is decentralized. If a pool is commanded to censor a transaction, then it is a matter of time until another pool will mine it. Even if 99% of the hash rate belongs to pro-censorship pools, Bitcoin will still be censorship resistant, because 1 out of the 100 mined blocks will contain all the previously ignored / censored transactions.
In this scenario, it would be trivially easy for the 99% to ignore that one block in a hundred that included the transaction they don't want. It doesn't even cost them anything missing the block, since the difficulty will be based on their 99% of the hash rate instead of the full 100%. They'll make up for the missing block the next 2 weeks.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
The pools can't go against the law enforcement. They are companies obliged to pay tax to the government. When the gov ask them to censor a certain transaction, they will obey it.
Pools are central point of failures, I get it. But, Bitcoin is decentralized. If a pool is commanded to censor a transaction, then it is a matter of time until another pool will mine it. Even if 99% of the hash rate belongs to pro-censorship pools, Bitcoin will still be censorship resistant, because 1 out of the 100 mined blocks will contain all the previously ignored / censored transactions.

If they are commanded to reorg, then that's when the shit hits the fan. I speculate that there is no financial benefit from such an action, and it is suicidal for the business, but I can't argue it is impossible to ever happen. It'd just be the very ending of Bitcoin as a censorship resistant form of money. (And maybe in general as money)

Monero is an option and as I understand it, they can't go after the miners because the miners don't know what they are mining but they can go after the exchanges this time because they are also paying taxes and nearly all of them enforcing the KYC rules which kills the purpose of owning monero in the first place.
Which would be the point where people would start bypassing KYC and migrate to decentralized exchanges.

Needless to say that these are all bareless speculations of ours.
member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
It is already happening. Just because they are doing it less, doesn't mean they won't do it more in the future.
I know, and I think I've commented my part on that thread. But, just because one does it, doesn't make it the rule. Pretty much the opposite; the rest will find incentive to be as censorship resistant as possible. When Wasabi started with the blacklisting, we weren't afraid if the rest of the solutions would start censoring. Instead, their competitors saw this as the chance to demonstrate how free of censorship they are.

The problem is if pools ever manage to reorg for the sake of censoring, which, as I had outlined there, would be the day to abandon Bitcoin.

The pools can't go against the law enforcement. They are companies obliged to pay tax to the government. When the gov ask them to censor a certain transaction, they will obey it. Or else...

It is already over imo. We are on borrowed time. Mind that it doesn't mean bitcoin will go to zero. That's not what I mean if anyone is worried about that.

It was over the day when mining became a company play. Only home mining can fight censorship.



Monero is an option and as I understand it, they can't go after the miners because the miners don't know what they are mining but they can go after the exchanges this time because they are also paying taxes and nearly all of them enforcing the KYC rules which kills the purpose of owning monero in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
It is already happening. Just because they are doing it less, doesn't mean they won't do it more in the future.
I know, and I think I've commented my part on that thread. But, just because one does it, doesn't make it the rule. Pretty much the opposite; the rest will find incentive to be as censorship resistant as possible. When Wasabi started with the blacklisting, we weren't afraid if the rest of the solutions would start censoring. Instead, their competitors saw this as the chance to demonstrate how free of censorship they are.

The problem is if pools ever manage to reorg for the sake of censoring, which, as I had outlined there, would be the day to abandon Bitcoin.
member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
for instance all those old untouched addresses from 2009 to 2011 could get frozen and not allowed to send their coins simply because a government declares them abandoned funds.
How... exactly? Censoring transactions is evidently not sustainable.

It is already happening. Just because they are doing it less, doesn't mean they won't do it more in the future.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ofac-sanctioned-transactions-being-censored-5475157
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
Not your business to decide how another forum should be run IMO.
We're not deciding anything (other than not using it). We're merely commenting on how bad it is. I get that you're trying to sell something, and you have to defend it at all costs, but... Please take a moment to consider that you're asking from us to censor ourselves... in another forum. Usually, a healthy business must accept judgment and feedback. You on the other hand, just want to strangle any negative opinion. That doesn't lead to a good reputation.

for instance all those old untouched addresses from 2009 to 2011 could get frozen and not allowed to send their coins simply because a government declares them abandoned funds.
How... exactly? Censoring transactions is evidently not sustainable.
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8914
'The right to privacy matters'
I think sig camps won't go away, but the mixer ban came screaming and with many warnings.
The thing with mixers was that they were common targets. We can argue that casinos or exchanges could get seized for operating illegally sometimes as well, but it is an uncommon phenomenon, whereas mixers are in almost every nation considered unlicensed money transmitters. It is a matter of time until all are shut down, and that's the excuse for the precautionary measure, as I see it.

What we need to consider is where we're heading to in terms of legislature. If we start treating mixers as illicit entities, then it won't be late until every privacy solution is deemed as illicit. Whirlpool? Tagged as money transmitting service. Joinmarket? Tagged as money transmitting and obfuscating protocol. Monero? The same.

yep.  and screen tx that some pools ban.

btw that removes the single best feature of btc. the ability to move wealth from an oppressive government to a ‘free’

it is the end of btc as a safe wealth storage.

for instance all those old untouched addresses from 2009 to 2011 could get frozen and not allowed to send their coins simply because a government declares them abandoned funds.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1713
Top Crypto Casino
In that case your list is going to be up and available for long time because mixers are not going anywhere. If the situation becomes completely untenable for mixers because of a concerted international effort by law enforcement agencies to ban them, then you will have to make the decision. You never know, in the future maybe mixers will end up being licenced on a country to country basis.

At least in the case of BitMixList, if it comes to the point where mixers are completely outlawed worldwide, I can just take the site down.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 792
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
I hope none of them will find themselves in a position where they'll think "theymos was wise, I wish I stopped promoting mixers"

Here is the non-still picture you should be looking at. What's money when your ass sits in a jail cell?
They know that theymos will be the only one who will face problem, not directly them. Many people are ready and willing to let this forum dive down if it gives them time to milk some profit before that happens. There are rarely some people out there who really vote for privacy and the freedom of speech. If mixers were paying $20 or something like that, believe me, no one would ever complain.

We can argue that casinos or exchanges could get seized for operating illegally sometimes as well, but it is an uncommon phenomenon, whereas mixers are in almost every nation considered unlicensed money transmitters.
That wont' happen to casinos because casinos are regulated with license and they ask for KYC data to their customers while mixers are not regulated, don't have any license and they don't ask for KYC, i.e. accept every kind of transaction. That's the difference, so, crypto casinos are in no danger.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
first of all, please remove these images, you are not authorised and we do not wish this to be displayed outside of our forum, you are free to join and write whatever you want, but taking screenshots to criticise on another platform, that's a bit too much, don't you think ?
You can go sex yourself. If you don't want to be screenshot, don't go public. Make it a private forum. I can criticize anything I see on the internet.
Lol. So he wants to use Bitcointalk to promote his little forum, but doesn't want his money grabbing scam to be exposed.
newbie
Activity: 20
Merit: 2
I don't understand lol

Altscointalk will become a better forum in future? Cool, we shall move there. Competition is what brings best to the customer.
member
Activity: 134
Merit: 94
The Alliance of Bitcointalk Translators - ENG > TR
first of all, please remove these images, you are not authorised and we do not wish this to be displayed outside of our forum, you are free to join and write whatever you want, but taking screenshots to criticise on another platform, that's a bit too much, don't you think ?

You can go sex yourself. If you don't want to be screenshot, don't go public. Make it a private forum. I can criticize anything I see on the internet.

Second, btt have tons of money, to do whatever they want, we do not have enough money to execute our basic plans, and we want to do a lot, and growth and development requires a lot of money. Startups spend millions on growth and development... Also for the records, paying users are a rarity, almost all special ranks were granted in the early days of the forum ... back in 2017-18!

OK.

There are only few features that are paying, and these features are problematic and require close monitoring, hence they were rendered unavailable, but then much much later, they were made available for special ranks and donors ...
Not your business to decide how another forum should be run IMO.

Every feature in altt was well thought about ... It is not bitcointalk, it is an entirely different forum, you sould not expect exact same rules and modus opperendi.

OK.
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