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Topic: The UFC Info and Prediction Thread - page 346. (Read 97140 times)

legendary
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March 14, 2022, 09:29:46 AM
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Edit:  Another fighter to watch is Dan Hooker who moved down to 145 for this event.
So Dan Hooker moved down to 145 pounds and with his long reach and frame, he could really bully the division if he could cut the weight healthy and able to hydrate back and not compromise himself.

The fight cards right now is hard to predict, Paddy Pimblett is talking well and making a lot of noise and if he could perform at the same level then it would be great and since you mentioned Dan Hooker moved down to 145 pound division, i might place a bet on him and finally Gunnar Nelson is back and i am not sure what kind of performance can be expected from him.

Hooker was actually fighting at 145 around 5 - 6 years ago but had some tough weight cuts that forced him to move up at 155.  And even then I think he had a couple of somewhat tough weight cuts at the higher weight class.

And Arnold Allen is no slouch.  He should be a tough match up for Hooker imho.  I think I have more confidence in putting some action for Paul Craig as the underdog than betting on Hooker as a coin flip.  There are questions for Hooker in moving back down.  I'm pretty sure that flight from NZ to London wouldn't help either if he decides to fly somewhat late.


These are all pretty good match ups with most of them close to 50/50 on paper and some of them could even see the dogs winning imho.  Match ups like Jack Shore vs Timur Valiev should be closer imho.  So is Krylov vs Paul Craig...  And I know the roster was made months prior to the date of the even but man it looks like there could be 5 matches either canceled or with those Russian fighters replaced on short notice.  Sucks if so because this is a banger of a card.  Fighter to watch is Topuria and of course Aspinall.  Aspinall could challenge for the HW title in a year or so.

Edit:  Another fighter to watch is Dan Hooker who moved down to 145 for this event.

It is, there are many good matches, and yes the Jack Shore VS Timur Valiev could be an interesting match to watch, but what I like in this event is the Short notice Ilia Topuria fighting Jai Herbert, in my opinion this is an easy win for Topuria, Gunner Nelson taking the short notice Takashi Sato, Arnold Allen VS Dan Hooker, and after this event the next event will be the UFC Fight Night: Blaydes VS Daukaus, unfortunately the Jan Blachowicz VS Aleksander Rakic and Michelle Waterson VS Amanda Ribas got canceled but I will surely put my eyes on some fights and that is the Neil Magny VS Max Griffin, Tucker Lutz VS Choi Seung Woo, then the UFC 273, these are the events I am most excited of,



Yup.  I have Topuria high in my parlays and there's a couple others..  I hope the sanction thingy won't spoil this whole event as there are 5 Russians in it.
legendary
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March 14, 2022, 08:39:07 AM
Dana White is not subject to political factors but all activities will run according to the sanctions regulations set by the government and there will be no dispensation if the organization/government has signed the ban on Russian fighters. So, will Volkov be able to fight on the main card on March 19 and without the intervention of sanctions for Russian fighters?
If the Sanction is legalize then Dana White will need to subjects to it, but in this case it is not legalize and just a recommendation, to banning Russian and Belarusian athletes, so Dana White's action to not ban Russian and Belarusian athletes on UFC is surely legal, or still legal, I really think that Dana White knows what he is doing, The IOC or The International Olympic Committee's are acting that they are protecting the integrity of global sports competitions, and a safety for all participants, and that they are acting with a heavy heart, I don't really know if what they are saying is genuine and really has a heavy heart in putting this up, all I can think of is that they have some hidden agenda in doing such things, it will end up in political views than with the safety of all participants, and I think UFC is out of the Picture on what the ICO is suggesting.

The ICO thing is just some bunch of bull shit in my opinion. They are not protecting or doing anything like that. So that always they have some type of agenda behind this. I am really happy to see that UFC did not ban the Russian fighters. I actually think that they cannot under such circumstances where the Russian fighters are the most popular ones right now.
legendary
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March 14, 2022, 03:33:08 AM
It's a breath of fresh air when I hear this, and come on there is no good effect in banning fighters that is Russian, it will just cause another negativity, and will not surely stop the war, I really think that Dana White is doing great in not jumping into a political views, certainly there are many organization that wants the banning of Russian players and fighters all over the world and they want us to participates but just like I said it will just cause some negativity for the people, and may cause racism, in some people, so I surely not agree with it as well.
Dana White is not subject to political factors but all activities will run according to the sanctions regulations set by the government and there will be no dispensation if the organization/government has signed the ban on Russian fighters. So, will Volkov be able to fight on the main card on March 19 and without the intervention of sanctions for Russian fighters?

If the Sanction is legalize then Dana White will need to subjects to it, but in this case it is not legalize and just a recommendation, to banning Russian and Belarusian athletes, so Dana White's action to not ban Russian and Belarusian athletes on UFC is surely legal, or still legal, I really think that Dana White knows what he is doing, The IOC or The International Olympic Committee's are acting that they are protecting the integrity of global sports competitions, and a safety for all participants, and that they are acting with a heavy heart, I don't really know if what they are saying is genuine and really has a heavy heart in putting this up, all I can think of is that they have some hidden agenda in doing such things, it will end up in political views than with the safety of all participants, and I think UFC is out of the Picture on what the ICO is suggesting.
hero member
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March 14, 2022, 02:25:59 AM
It's a breath of fresh air when I hear this, and come on there is no good effect in banning fighters that is Russian, it will just cause another negativity, and will not surely stop the war, I really think that Dana White is doing great in not jumping into a political views, certainly there are many organization that wants the banning of Russian players and fighters all over the world and they want us to participates but just like I said it will just cause some negativity for the people, and may cause racism, in some people, so I surely not agree with it as well.
Dana White is not subject to political factors but all activities will run according to the sanctions regulations set by the government and there will be no dispensation if the organization/government has signed the ban on Russian fighters. So, will Volkov be able to fight on the main card on March 19 and without the intervention of sanctions for Russian fighters?
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 11:14:09 PM

These are all pretty good match ups with most of them close to 50/50 on paper and some of them could even see the dogs winning imho.  Match ups like Jack Shore vs Timur Valiev should be closer imho.  So is Krylov vs Paul Craig...  And I know the roster was made months prior to the date of the even but man it looks like there could be 5 matches either canceled or with those Russian fighters replaced on short notice.  Sucks if so because this is a banger of a card.  Fighter to watch is Topuria and of course Aspinall.  Aspinall could challenge for the HW title in a year or so.

Edit:  Another fighter to watch is Dan Hooker who moved down to 145 for this event.

It is, there are many good matches, and yes the Jack Shore VS Timur Valiev could be an interesting match to watch, but what I like in this event is the Short notice Ilia Topuria fighting Jai Herbert, in my opinion this is an easy win for Topuria, Gunner Nelson taking the short notice Takashi Sato, Arnold Allen VS Dan Hooker, and after this event the next event will be the UFC Fight Night: Blaydes VS Daukaus, unfortunately the Jan Blachowicz VS Aleksander Rakic and Michelle Waterson VS Amanda Ribas got canceled but I will surely put my eyes on some fights and that is the Neil Magny VS Max Griffin, Tucker Lutz VS Choi Seung Woo, then the UFC 273, these are the events I am most excited of,


UFC never gets into politics and the "ban" stuff is all about politics. Sometimes I feel UFC as an organization is genuinely a lot more inclusive than the places/orgs that pretend to be Cheesy.

It's a breath of fresh air when I hear this, and come on there is no good effect in banning fighters that is Russian, it will just cause another negativity, and will not surely stop the war, I really think that Dana White is doing great in not jumping into a political views, certainly there are many organization that wants the banning of Russian players and fighters all over the world and they want us to participates but just like I said it will just cause some negativity for the people, and may cause racism, in some people, so I surely not agree with it as well.
full member
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March 13, 2022, 09:09:12 PM
I don't think the UFC is going to ban Russian fighters because they generate a large amount of money for the UFC.

And I am not sure what to say about the Islam Makhachev and Rafael dos Anjos situation because I have no idea who is speaking the truth here. But I think Islam Makhachev is not someone who will run from any fight.
That hasn't exactly stopped others from banning them. It's quite clear my position on it, I think it's absolutely disgraceful that there are even talks about banning Russian athletes, although I do have a little more faith in MMA organisations as they aren't typically the people that just bend under political pressure.

Sounds like more talk to me. I'd favour Makhachev in that fight though, so I don't think it's because he's a afraid or anything of the other rumours that are circulating.
UFC never gets into politics and the "ban" stuff is all about politics. Sometimes I feel UFC as an organization is genuinely a lot more inclusive than the places/orgs that pretend to be Cheesy.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 05:34:01 PM
~
Edit:  Another fighter to watch is Dan Hooker who moved down to 145 for this event.
So Dan Hooker moved down to 145 pounds and with his long reach and frame, he could really bully the division if he could cut the weight healthy and able to hydrate back and not compromise himself.

The fight cards right now is hard to predict, Paddy Pimblett is talking well and making a lot of noise and if he could perform at the same level then it would be great and since you mentioned Dan Hooker moved down to 145 pound division, i might place a bet on him and finally Gunnar Nelson is back and i am not sure what kind of performance can be expected from him.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 04:51:25 PM
Now that the UFC Fight Night: Santos VS Ankalev has finally settled, I didn't make a bet or watch the event yet, because I was bored and busy, but another event has emerged and this is

UFC Fight Night Volkov vs. Aspinall

March 19, 2022, The O2 Arena in London, England.



Main Card

Heavyweight   Alexander Volkov   vs.   Tom Aspinall
Featherweight   Arnold Allen   vs.   Dan Hooker
Lightweight   Paddy Pimblett   vs.   Rodrigo Vargas
Heavyweight   Shamil Abdurakhimov   vs.   Sergei Pavlovich
Light Heavyweight   Nikita Krylov   vs.   Paul Craig
Welterweight   Gunnar Nelson   vs.   Takashi Sato

Preliminary Card

Lightweight   Jai Herbert   vs.   Ilia Topuria
Flyweight   Muhammad Mokaev   vs.   Cody Durden
Featherweight   Mike Grundy   vs.   Makwan Amirkhani   
Women's Flyweight   Molly McCann   vs.   Luana Carolina
Bantamweight   Jack Shore   vs.   Timur Valiev
Women's Strawweight   Cory McKenna   vs.   Elise Reed
Bantamweight   Nathaniel Wood   vs.   Vince Morales

All Information was from WIKI


These are all pretty good match ups with most of them close to 50/50 on paper and some of them could even see the dogs winning imho.  Match ups like Jack Shore vs Timur Valiev should be closer imho.  So is Krylov vs Paul Craig...  And I know the roster was made months prior to the date of the even but man it looks like there could be 5 matches either canceled or with those Russian fighters replaced on short notice.  Sucks if so because this is a banger of a card.  Fighter to watch is Topuria and of course Aspinall.  Aspinall could challenge for the HW title in a year or so.

Edit:  Another fighter to watch is Dan Hooker who moved down to 145 for this event.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 04:23:50 PM

Masvidal vs Ben Askren is obviously a memorable knockout. But I think Masvidal was always some steps ahead of Ben Askren. Masvidal is a lot stronger and Ben Askren only had a little wrestling in him. I think the KO was really unexpected even for Masvidal. And Masvidal is not going to improve because a person who is not dedicated and goes to parties and clubs at 5:00 a.m. in the morning when he has a fight next week obviously is not going to improve as a fighter.

I also think the same, Ben Askren is just weak than Masvidal, I really never expected much from Jorge Masvidal especially when he's doing crazy things in life, and expecting that he's going to win a fight without hard work is pretty much obvious he's not getting to his game anymore, and without dedication in what he does, and no progress at all, and pretty much Covington is very well rounded when it comes to striking, and wrestling, and from what I see on Masvidal performance and all those lost, I really think that he will lose against Covington,

-snip-

I'm a fan of Thiago, but I do think its time he potentially hangs up the gloves. He's always dangerous because of his power, however the days of him being in entertaining fights is largely gone. Now we only see little bursts of excitement from him. Although, I must say I think he did well against an opponent who is held in high regard.

I also think that Thiago Santos is not that too Excited about what and he surely needs a retirement but his good against Ankalaev but not that great a 38 years old against 29 years old is something that we need to see here, Santos will surely not do much against fighter much younger than him anymore but he surely withstand Ankalaev very much, with Thiago Santos performance from the past against Jon Jones, Glover Teixeira, Aleksandar Rakić, and this fight it is all not that much explosion for Santos, and with his win against Johnny Walker I really think Johnny Walker could win it if Walker decided to go his own path, but he listens to his coach that is how good of a listener Johnny Walker is, but for a Thiago Santos fight I think he would win it if he shows much explosion than Santos.
hero member
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March 13, 2022, 11:46:18 AM
That's exactly why Dana White is not banning Russian fighters. He knows very well that if he bans them and Eagle Fighting Championship will sign them,  Wink
Dana White has not signed the rules banning Russian fighters so far, but sanctions on several countries have barred tourists from Russia. Dana white is looking for alternatives to get Volkov to the country sooner to avoid possible sanctions ahead of his fight on March 19 at the O2 Arena.


https://www.sportbible.com/mma/dana-white-gives-update-on-status-of-russian-fighters-20220302

Quote
The Eagle FC is going to be really big because these Russian fighters make up a lot of the revenues that are generated in the UFC. And then Dana White is going to have a potential opponent to think about in my opinion. I am quite sure that Khabib Nurmagomedov has the ability to afford the fighters a lot of money.
Eagle FC is an alternative choice for the popular stage if Russian fighters have been banned from the UFC, Eagle FC will be even more jarring when many former Russian fighters will grace the Eagle FC octagon facing off against the EFC champions fighters.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 11:33:46 AM
Agreed, I think UFC is the clever one amongst all other sports bodies. Because UFC knows if they Ban the Russian fighters they will lose a lot of their viewership as well as revenue. And honestly, everyone knows banning the Russian fighters is not going to do anything actually.

In my opinion, they are just trying to make the Ukrainian president look like a brave guy and make themselves look innocent.

If UFC fires Russian fighters, EFC league, that belongs to Khabib Nurmagomedov will sign them with open hands. I think Dana White understands that and dont want to lose that piece of his industry. I am pretty much sure that Khabib can offer them good salary, as I think he can get support from his UAE friends.
That's exactly why Dana White is not banning Russian fighters. He knows very well that if he bans them and Eagle Fighting Championship will sign them,  Wink
The Eagle FC is going to be really big because these Russian fighters make up a lot of the revenues that are generated in the UFC. And then Dana White is going to have a potential opponent to think about in my opinion. I am quite sure that Khabib Nurmagomedov has the ability to afford the fighters a lot of money.
hero member
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March 13, 2022, 11:23:26 AM
If UFC fires Russian fighters, EFC league, that belongs to Khabib Nurmagomedov will sign them with open hands. I think Dana White understands that and dont want to lose that piece of his industry. I am pretty much sure that Khabib can offer them good salary, as I think he can get support from his UAE friends.

That's exactly why Dana White is not banning Russian fighters. He knows very well that if he bans them and Eagle Fighting Championship will sign them,  Wink

The Eagle FC is going to be really big because these Russian fighters make up a lot of the revenues that are generated in the UFC. And then Dana White is going to have a potential opponent to think about in my opinion. I am quite sure that Khabib Nurmagomedov has the ability to afford the fighters a lot of money.

Eagle FC will need more sponsors to pay for bigger fighters. The ones they can afford recently are the ones that are actaully out of the game. It is however acceptable for the Russian MMA fighters to fight under Eagle than having no fights at all if they are all banned because of the politics in sports today. FIFA and UEFA suspend Russian teams, it's not a pretty story but I wouldn't scratch out the possibility that it will also happen in any sports if this war prolongs.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 10:58:12 AM
If UFC fires Russian fighters, EFC league, that belongs to Khabib Nurmagomedov will sign them with open hands. I think Dana White understands that and dont want to lose that piece of his industry. I am pretty much sure that Khabib can offer them good salary, as I think he can get support from his UAE friends.

That's exactly why Dana White is not banning Russian fighters. He knows very well that if he bans them and Eagle Fighting Championship will sign them,  Wink

The Eagle FC is going to be really big because these Russian fighters make up a lot of the revenues that are generated in the UFC. And then Dana White is going to have a potential opponent to think about in my opinion. I am quite sure that Khabib Nurmagomedov has the ability to afford the fighters a lot of money.
staff
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March 13, 2022, 10:37:12 AM
Enjoyed the whole event though. Fights that you won't expect to have a brutal end like the flying knees of Azamat. Watching a big guy doing that is spectacular.

I thought the event was brilliant, probably one of the best in recent memory. There was comebacks, domination, and tight fights. It basically had everything, except for a entertaining main event. I do find that though, the main event is typically very cagey, since usually there's more on the line. Just think how hard fighters find it to get headline a event, let alone keep on headlining.

I'm a fan of Thiago, but I do think its time he potentially hangs up the gloves. He's always dangerous because of his power, however the days of him being in entertaining fights is largely gone. Now we only see little bursts of excitement from him. Although, I must say I think he did well against an opponent who is held in high regard.
sr. member
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March 13, 2022, 10:13:41 AM
I don't think the UFC is going to ban Russian fighters because they generate a large amount of money for the UFC.
And I am not sure what to say about the Islam Makhachev and Rafael dos Anjos situation because I have no idea who is speaking the truth here. But I think Islam Makhachev is not someone who will run from any fight.
That hasn't exactly stopped others from banning them. It's quite clear my position on it, I think it's absolutely disgraceful that there are even talks about banning Russian athletes, although I do have a little more faith in MMA organisations as they aren't typically the people that just bend under political pressure.
Sounds like more talk to me. I'd favour Makhachev in that fight though, so I don't think it's because he's a afraid or anything of the other rumours that are circulating.

I think that Russian athletes in any sports, whether it's football or MMA or any other, should not suffer because the politicians of their country decided to invade Ukraine. We all talked a lot about sports being out of politics. But at the end of the day, all the sports are controlled by politicians. So, the effect on the players are quite inevitable.



I feel the same, whether we agree the Russia's attack on Ukraine is justified or not, there should be no reason to ban Russian athletes from competing because that's just shameful politics.

Firstly, since this topic is touched, I feel like Russia is right in their decision to attack and no I am not saying Ukraine is wrong but they are just facing the dire consequences of saying that they want to join NATO. When USA did the same to other countries, they were represented as heroes and now they (west media) are making Russia look like villains. I am not in support or oppose but just putting facts.

Now coming back to banning of the Russian athletes, it will only ignite this war further and let's be honest, there are some Russians are even opposing the move by Putin and this shows that just because their president took a decision, doesn't mean it was done democratically.

Actually, it's true that the fighters or other sportsmen in any other sports don't agree with the war. So, I don't find any reasons to ban them. And I think that dumb people who are in authority should understand that banning the Russian sportsman is going to make the situation worse.



That win of Jorge Masvidal to Ben Askren was just a fluke, Ben Askren was totally surprised, and out of nowhere that knee really connected but Jorge Masvidal's KO to Ben Askren will never likely happen again because some fighters are really expecting it now, and I really think that Ben Askren is really weaker than Masvidal no doubt about it, Ben Askren will never stand a chance in stand-up but when in the ground Ban Askren could surely put a fight so Masvidal score that fluke shot on Askren,

There is no point in banning Russian fighters, and what I think on the war over Russia and Ukraine was their problem alone and the UN is not really helping out and both of these countries they had their fault not only Russia,

Well, that fight will be epic, but unfortunately, Dana White happen and is likely What Dana wants Dana will surely get, and we fans was just on the corner and never really get what we want.

Masvidal vs Ben Askren is obviously a memorable knockout. But I think Masvidal was always some steps ahead of Ben Askren. Masvidal is a lot stronger and Ben Askren only had a little wrestling in him. I think the KO was really unexpected even for Masvidal. And Masvidal is not going to improve because a person who is not dedicated and goes to parties and clubs at 5:00 a.m. in the morning when he has a fight next week obviously is not going to improve as a fighter.
hero member
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March 13, 2022, 09:46:16 AM
@Welsh. If we can be very honest, the fight was very boring for a light heavyweight fight between 2 fighters who are in the top 10. I am not certain what the other fighters are hyping in their posts in social media.
Yeah, I don't mind chess matches per say, but this was particularly uneventful, like I said I think that Thiago had the best moment of the fight with the knockdown, however this isn't a fight we'll be talking about next week, let alone further down the line.

Have you spot the recurring theme here, any fighter who put up a good fight with Jon Jones end up in a shitty phase after that fight, may be a burn out even after giving their best performance and still end up loosing, Alexander Gustafsson, Anthony Smith, Thiago Santos, Dominick Reyes and these fighters are struggling, once a title contender against Jon Jones and showcased heart and gave him a good fight but now these fighters are on a loosing streak and never peaked after the Jon Jones fight.
Yeah, although I'm not usually skeptical like that. I think it's more likely to be down to aging, and the fact that he has had some pretty serious knee surgeries, and at his age his knees are going to be naturally hurting from the amount of punishment they've taken over the years, that will only be exaggerated by the surgeries. I don't think he's going to be in the UFC much longer.

Not a very satisfying performance but he survived the 5 rounds though. It must be discouraging after not accomplishing to win the biggest fight of thier career that after losing Jones fight, they tend to struggle the next and eventually lose hope for another belt fight. I was hoping Santos would win since Magomed is not a knockout guy.

Enjoyed the whole event though. Fights that you won't expect to have a brutal end like the flying knees of Azamat. Watching a big guy doing that is spectacular.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 09:17:29 AM
If UFC fires Russian fighters, EFC league, that belongs to Khabib Nurmagomedov will sign them with open hands. I think Dana White understands that and dont want to lose that piece of his industry. I am pretty much sure that Khabib can offer them good salary, as I think he can get support from his UAE friends.
staff
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March 13, 2022, 09:16:55 AM
@Welsh. If we can be very honest, the fight was very boring for a light heavyweight fight between 2 fighters who are in the top 10. I am not certain what the other fighters are hyping in their posts in social media.
Yeah, I don't mind chess matches per say, but this was particularly uneventful, like I said I think that Thiago had the best moment of the fight with the knockdown, however this isn't a fight we'll be talking about next week, let alone further down the line.

Have you spot the recurring theme here, any fighter who put up a good fight with Jon Jones end up in a shitty phase after that fight, may be a burn out even after giving their best performance and still end up loosing, Alexander Gustafsson, Anthony Smith, Thiago Santos, Dominick Reyes and these fighters are struggling, once a title contender against Jon Jones and showcased heart and gave him a good fight but now these fighters are on a loosing streak and never peaked after the Jon Jones fight.
Yeah, although I'm not usually skeptical like that. I think it's more likely to be down to aging, and the fact that he has had some pretty serious knee surgeries, and at his age his knees are going to be naturally hurting from the amount of punishment they've taken over the years, that will only be exaggerated by the surgeries. I don't think he's going to be in the UFC much longer.
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March 13, 2022, 06:00:27 AM
The UFC will not play politics and they never said they will be banning Russian fighters. There are many critics out there calling for the boycott of the UFC if they do not ban Russian fighters but i doubt Dana White will listen to those and if there is a visa issue with Russian fighters in the fighters they will move the card to UAE and all of the events in the UAE were a grand success.

They will not do so because as we can see the competition in this industry are tight and there are lots of MMA association who will willing to get those Russian fighters if ever they will boycott which might lead to UFC's demise when all the spectators will prepare to watch those Russian fighters in the other MMA association. They're using their heads here by not joining those so-called concerned citizens who in reality are just playing the game as well.
legendary
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March 13, 2022, 05:28:34 AM
Now that the UFC Fight Night: Santos VS Ankalev has finally settled, I didn't make a bet or watch the event yet, because I was bored and busy, but another event has emerged and this is

UFC Fight Night Volkov vs. Aspinall

March 19, 2022, The O2 Arena in London, England.



Main Card

Heavyweight   Alexander Volkov   vs.   Tom Aspinall
Featherweight   Arnold Allen   vs.   Dan Hooker
Lightweight   Paddy Pimblett   vs.   Rodrigo Vargas
Heavyweight   Shamil Abdurakhimov   vs.   Sergei Pavlovich
Light Heavyweight   Nikita Krylov   vs.   Paul Craig
Welterweight   Gunnar Nelson   vs.   Takashi Sato

Preliminary Card

Lightweight   Jai Herbert   vs.   Ilia Topuria
Flyweight   Muhammad Mokaev   vs.   Cody Durden
Featherweight   Mike Grundy   vs.   Makwan Amirkhani   
Women's Flyweight   Molly McCann   vs.   Luana Carolina
Bantamweight   Jack Shore   vs.   Timur Valiev
Women's Strawweight   Cory McKenna   vs.   Elise Reed
Bantamweight   Nathaniel Wood   vs.   Vince Morales

All Information was from WIKI
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