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Topic: Time to stand up to the XT shills here! - page 3. (Read 10639 times)

sr. member
Activity: 423
Merit: 250
November 09, 2015, 03:32:39 PM
I do think we are going to have to raise the limit a bit just due to an increase in usage but not XT size, it just isn't needed and won't be getting the support needed.

The problem is transactions already waiting unnecessary long to be added to the blockchain (and obviously people complaining the first confirmation taking too long) because of the 1MB limit and there is still not consenzus among Bitcoin developers to switch to 2MB immediatelly... This is what makes XT more popular than it should be because it is currently the only already working way to solve the obvious problem.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 09, 2015, 03:23:48 PM
It will certainly help with scaling in the short term, but over longer periods, the real question becomes what percentage of transaction fees are skimmed off the top and don't end up going to the miners securing the main chain?  It could potentially hit miners hard later down the line if we don't strike the balance right.  Too much traffic on the main chain is bad, but too much off-chain could be equally precarious.


I don't see how that is a problem.

There are basically two type of demand for transactions: cheap & instant and irreversible settlements.

In the long run entities looking for secure settlements of large transactions will necessarily settle directly on the blockchain and it's likely the market fee for these transactions will cover miners' cost.

I respect your optimism, but I'm not quite ready for all of us to bet the farm on "likely".  We need to tread carefully on this.  What's the plan if miner fees start to drop?  Politely ask providers of the off-chain services to stop taking a cut?  Somehow I don't see that working.  The first major off-chain solution launched is Liquid, which is designed precisely for large scale settlements.  Have we not got this a little backwards if "settlements of large transactions will necessarily settle directly on the blockchain"?

That's not what Liquid is for. It's basically a liquidity pool for market makers & exchanges.

Settlement on the Bitcoin blockchain offers unparalleled security so basically you are arguing that there is not going to be enough demand for this. I consider this pretty unlikely.

Still, you can see where I'm going with this.  We'll take the description from their own page:

Quote
Using sidechain technology, Liquid reduces ISL by allowing for rapid transfers between accounts held by the varied participants in a separate, high-volume and low-fee cryptographic system that preserves many of the security benefits of the Bitcoin network. This, in addition to increasing the security of funds normally subject to explicit counterparty risk, fosters conditions that increase market liquidity and reduce capital requirements for on-blockchain business models.

So yeah, you're right in that it helps increase liquidity, but at the same time, it's allowing exchanges to move large volumes of funds around while minimising contact with the main chain.  Your vision of the future is that traditional financial institutions and big business will settle on the main chain and pay big fees to miners, but if they see exchanges doing it off-chain and still maintaining a high level of security whilst paying less in the process, why wouldn't other industries follow suit in a similar manner?  

Would be somewhat ironic if most big businesses jumped on sidechains and you had to start begging people to put their cups of coffee on the blockchain just so the miners get a bit of income.   Tongue

So I have to ask, now that we've opened the potential Pandora's box of sidechains, can it be easily closed again if this turns out to be the wrong course of action?

Even the participants of Liquid eventually settle on the mainchain.

Bitcoin provides features that can not be replicated on sidechains: uninterdictable, censorship-resistant transactions with irrevocable finality of payment.

No matter what superficial features are developed on top using sidechains there will be demand for the ultimate settlement layer.

Also don't forget that ultimately the goal is to have miners merge mine the largest sidechains. It also wouldn't be surprising to see to see some of them pivot a part of their business into providing Lightning network nodes.
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 3190
Leave no FUD unchallenged
November 09, 2015, 03:10:57 PM
It will certainly help with scaling in the short term, but over longer periods, the real question becomes what percentage of transaction fees are skimmed off the top and don't end up going to the miners securing the main chain?  It could potentially hit miners hard later down the line if we don't strike the balance right.  Too much traffic on the main chain is bad, but too much off-chain could be equally precarious.


I don't see how that is a problem.

There are basically two type of demand for transactions: cheap & instant and irreversible settlements.

In the long run entities looking for secure settlements of large transactions will necessarily settle directly on the blockchain and it's likely the market fee for these transactions will cover miners' cost.

I respect your optimism, but I'm not quite ready for all of us to bet the farm on "likely".  We need to tread carefully on this.  What's the plan if miner fees start to drop?  Politely ask providers of the off-chain services to stop taking a cut?  Somehow I don't see that working.  The first major off-chain solution launched is Liquid, which is designed precisely for large scale settlements.  Have we not got this a little backwards if "settlements of large transactions will necessarily settle directly on the blockchain"?

That's not what Liquid is for. It's basically a liquidity pool for market makers & exchanges.

Settlement on the Bitcoin blockchain offers unparalleled security so basically you are arguing that there is not going to be enough demand for this. I consider this pretty unlikely.

Still, you can see where I'm going with this.  We'll take the description from their own page:

Quote
Using sidechain technology, Liquid reduces ISL by allowing for rapid transfers between accounts held by the varied participants in a separate, high-volume and low-fee cryptographic system that preserves many of the security benefits of the Bitcoin network. This, in addition to increasing the security of funds normally subject to explicit counterparty risk, fosters conditions that increase market liquidity and reduce capital requirements for on-blockchain business models.

So yeah, you're right in that it helps increase liquidity, but at the same time, it's allowing exchanges to move large volumes of funds around while minimising contact with the main chain.  Your vision of the future is that traditional financial institutions and big business will settle on the main chain and pay big fees to miners, but if they see exchanges doing it off-chain and still maintaining a high level of security whilst paying less in the process, why wouldn't other industries follow suit in a similar manner? 

Would be somewhat ironic if most big businesses jumped on sidechains and you had to start begging people to put their cups of coffee on the blockchain just so the miners get a bit of income.   Tongue

So I have to ask, now that we've opened the potential Pandora's box of sidechains, can it be easily closed again if this turns out to be the wrong course of action?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
November 09, 2015, 01:50:16 PM
Network is saturated today, the problem is right now!

Only by *spam* not by real transactions - and no doubt these spam attacks are actually by XT supporters who want to keep trying to say that it is so important that we need to change (and put Mike Hearn in charge) now.

No-one is using Bitcoin for everyday purchases even (I don't know anyone who does - including myself).

So you can go on and on about the bullshit txs representing "real txs" but that is simply not the case.

For a start - you would need to be "paid in BTC" to want to be spending it for everyday purchases - now apart from ad-siggers getting paid tiny amounts who is actually being paid in BTC now?

(answer - no-one - this is just another part of the XT misinformation)


Wrong.  My employees are paid in BTC.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 09, 2015, 01:43:51 PM
...

Is that what Blockstream has decided bitcoin should be?

Because that's not the original plan...

...
Sad but true. Lets us turn Bitcoin into a settlement layer between banks by keeping the blocksize at 1 MB. We then sell it as de-centralization.

Let's turn Bitcoin into Paypal by allowing freeloaders to spam the blockchain to oblivion until only datacenters can handle its load. We then sell it as "inclusion".
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 09, 2015, 01:36:50 PM
...

Is that what Blockstream has decided bitcoin should be?

Because that's not the original plan...

...
Sad but true. Lets us turn Bitcoin into a settlement layer between banks by keeping the blocksize at 1 MB. We then sell it as de-centralization.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
November 09, 2015, 01:24:42 PM
More than 4000 unconfirmed transactions, total size 3382.8271 (KB), latest blocks very near 1MB.

https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions

I wouldn't call this "barely any activity on the network."

Yep, mostly uneconomic spam not valuable enough for their sender to include a reasonable fee.


Wrong, most txs arn't spam:

https://blockchain.info/
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
November 09, 2015, 12:36:37 PM
Ok. Then you just proved me a discussion is impossible. Now accept the fact that people are freely moving away and move along.

I see - you have given up - good - now go an "fork off'.


Not sure what this is, but good to see someone else speaking out against something.  Most replies will be by retards and/or people trying to get their sig. Ad quota...
legendary
Activity: 2786
Merit: 1031
November 09, 2015, 12:10:03 PM
Bitcoin denominated transactions can be made outside of the Bitcoin's blockchain. Microtransactions are simply not compatible with engineering demand of the blockchain and will be relegated to payment channels soon enough.

Bitcoin is in fact best suited for large transactions (settlements).

If a transaction is not valuable enough to cover the costs of the network security then it doesn't belong on the blockchain.

Is that what Blockstream has decided bitcoin should be?

Because that's not the original plan...

Quote
>Satoshi Nakamoto wrote:
>> I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully
>> peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party.
>>
>> The paper is available at:
>> http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
>
>We very, very much need such a system, but the way I understand your
>proposal, it does not seem to scale to the required size.
>
>For transferable proof of work tokens to have value, they must have
>monetary value. To have monetary value, they must be transferred within
>a very large network - for example a file trading network akin to
>bittorrent.
>
>To detect and reject a double spending event in a timely manner, one
>must have most past transactions of the coins in the transaction, which,
> naively implemented, requires each peer to have most past
>transactions, or most past transactions that occurred recently. If
>hundreds of millions of people are doing transactions, that is a lot of
>bandwidth - each must know all, or a substantial part thereof.
>


Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe
for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for
double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or
about 12KB per day. Only people trying to create new coins would need to run
network nodes. At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the
network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to
specialists with server farms of specialized hardware. A server farm would
only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with
that one node.

The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction
would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be
broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion
transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day.
That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or
2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices.

If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then,
sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal.

Satoshi Nakamoto
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 09, 2015, 12:00:16 PM
Network is saturated today, the problem is right now!

 Roll Eyes

Not tonight, dear
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
November 09, 2015, 11:59:17 AM
Network is saturated today, the problem is right now!

Only by *spam* not by real transactions - and no doubt these spam attacks are actually by XT supporters who want to keep trying to say that it is so important that we need to change (and put Mike Hearn in charge) now.

No-one is using Bitcoin for everyday purchases even (I don't know anyone who does - including myself).

So you can go on and on about the bullshit txs representing "real txs" but that is simply not the case.

For a start - you would need to be "paid in BTC" to want to be spending it for everyday purchases - now apart from ad-siggers getting paid tiny amounts who is actually being paid in BTC now?

(answer - no-one - this is just another part of the XT misinformation)
legendary
Activity: 2786
Merit: 1031
November 09, 2015, 11:56:19 AM
More than 4000 unconfirmed transactions, total size 3382.8271 (KB), latest blocks very near 1MB.

https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions

I wouldn't call this "barely any activity on the network."

Yep, mostly uneconomic spam not valuable enough for their sender to include a reasonable fee.

Microtransactions, if that's what you're referring to, are not spam, if people want to make big transactions and pay a big fee there are lots of better systems than bitcoin.

"I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume."

Not

I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be no (bitcoin) transaction volume or the volume development team thinks is valuable enough to occur.

Bitcoin denominated transactions can be made outside of the Bitcoin's blockchain. Microtransactions are simply not compatible with engineering demand of the blockchain and will be relegated to payment channels soon enough.

Bitcoin is in fact best suited for large transactions (settlements).

If a transaction is not valuable enough to cover the costs of the network security then it doesn't belong on the blockchain.

From current volume to VISA level volume there are a lot of numbers between...

Network is saturated today, the problem is right now!
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
November 09, 2015, 11:51:48 AM
More than 4000 unconfirmed transactions, total size 3382.8271 (KB), latest blocks very near 1MB.

https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions

I wouldn't call this "barely any activity on the network."

Yep, mostly uneconomic spam not valuable enough for their sender to include a reasonable fee.

Microtransactions, if that's what you're referring to, are not spam, if I people want to make big transactions and pay a fee fee there are lots of better systems than bitcoin.

"I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume."

Not

I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or the volume development team thinks is valuable enough to occur.

But even Saint Gavin concedes that the blockchain can never be big enough to allow for VISA levels of transactions, let alone economic micro-payments, not even with his BIP-never-happened 20 MB schedule. The approach that the Core people are taking is:

  • re-engineer multi-sig so it's more space efficient on the blockchain
  • implement a simplified version of lightning that uses less space and does not need so many new opcodes

That will take care of actual micro payments, and VISA network stuff. Using the main blockchain is still the best option for a lot of typical use, e.g. if you want to send money to one person directly but not instantly. So, if expanding the blocksize can never achieve any of that anyway, why try solving the problem that way at all?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 09, 2015, 11:48:12 AM
More than 4000 unconfirmed transactions, total size 3382.8271 (KB), latest blocks very near 1MB.

https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions

I wouldn't call this "barely any activity on the network."

Yep, mostly uneconomic spam not valuable enough for their sender to include a reasonable fee.

Microtransactions, if that's what you're referring to, are not spam, if people want to make big transactions and pay a big fee there are lots of better systems than bitcoin.

"I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume."

Not

I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be no (bitcoin) transaction volume or the volume development team thinks is valuable enough to occur.

Bitcoin denominated transactions can be made outside of the Bitcoin's blockchain. Microtransactions are simply not compatible with engineering demand of the blockchain and will be relegated to payment channels soon enough.

Bitcoin is in fact best suited for large transactions (settlements).

If a transaction is not valuable enough to cover the costs of the network security then it doesn't belong on the blockchain.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 09, 2015, 11:41:17 AM
More than 4000 unconfirmed transactions, total size 3382.8271 (KB), latest blocks very near 1MB.
https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions
I wouldn't call this "barely any activity on the network."
Yep, mostly uneconomic spam not valuable enough for their sender to include a reasonable fee.
Microtransactions, if that's what you're referring to, are not spam, if I people want to make big transactions and pay a fee fee there are lots of better systems than bitcoin.

i am all ears, please do enlight.



"I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume."
Not
I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or the volume development team thinks is valuable enough to occur.

could we be done with the appeals to authority by now?
dont you think satoshi left exactly to avoid such childish arguments and titty sucking decision making?

seriously, i dont know who this satoshi is, nor what he meant back then, yet he also implemented a anti-spam bock size and bitcoin is still alive and running as far as i am concerned.

in the end, it drives lots of interest and people are free to use it or not.
legendary
Activity: 2786
Merit: 1031
November 09, 2015, 11:34:54 AM
More than 4000 unconfirmed transactions, total size 3382.8271 (KB), latest blocks very near 1MB.

https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions

I wouldn't call this "barely any activity on the network."

Yep, mostly uneconomic spam not valuable enough for their sender to include a reasonable fee.

Microtransactions, if that's what you're referring to, are not spam, if people want to make big transactions and pay a big fee there are lots of better systems than bitcoin.

"I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be very large (bitcoin) transaction volume or no volume."

Not

I’m sure that in 20 years there will either be no (bitcoin) transaction volume or the volume development team thinks is valuable enough to occur.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 09, 2015, 11:31:04 AM
Both of you joined the forum around alltime high price. Must be the reason why you are so angry and notoriously attacking ad hominem.

Yep, you scared.

lel yet another example of extrapolating shit from some random dates.

zomg in 2020 there will be 20GB blocks with 1pb domestic wifi and free coffee tips for the whole african continent!!1 XD

such research! ^^

edit: classic shill, did not even bother to refute the fact that he probably does not own a single bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
November 09, 2015, 11:22:07 AM
err.. Bit rich Ciyam, since you started this 'with us against us' thread !?

Funny - as I'm not on any side (am just against the XT shilling and Mike Hearn's approach).

It is the XT supporters that are demanding people to "take sides" (and attacking anyone that isn't on theirs but it would be better if the ad-homs were not being used by anyone).



It's not the big block supporters who are censoring, banning, DDoSing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality


Agreed. Banning, censoring and DDoSing is victim mentality. Healthy people would never do such things.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 09, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
Both of you joined the forum around alltime high price. Must be the reason why you are so angry and notoriously attacking ad hominem.

Yep, you scared.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1024
November 09, 2015, 11:16:20 AM
he probably does not even have a full coin... Roll Eyes

Maybe Gavin and Mike promised him a full XTcoin if he is successful in promoting this altcoin. That would explain his motivation - assuming that he is only half and not full retard.

ya.ya.yo!
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