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Topic: Time to stand up to the XT shills here! - page 8. (Read 10601 times)

legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 10:06:54 PM

i concur, quite a story you got here, but im more of a stoic person, sry.

i do not like to let myself drift into futuristic unicorns or past metaphors, but i understand what makes bitcoin valuable now, and i can assure you nothing else matters.

Just keep in mind that since 2010 when this debate was started the goalposts have moved. 1 MB of data back then is more like 6 MB of data today. By next year it will be around 8 MB. So are we talking about what is appropiate today or 5 years ago?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 09:57:15 PM
Actually a 1 MB blocksize limit ensures centralization because it forces the bulk of the transactions into centralized ledgers such as those kept by banks, credit cards companies. payment processors etc.

Running the Bitcoin client on a 10 year old feature phone or maybe even using a tabulating machine, punched cards and a telegraph line may be feasible but entirely pointless. Ok I jest. After all it was possible even in 1905 to send 1 MB of data over the telegraph network for a price. The price was just within the budget of JP Morgan. So why not reduce the blocksize to a few bytes since that was affordalbe for most people to send via the telegraph network back in 1905.

The reality is that technology does not stand still. In the future this debate will sound as crazy as my examples above.



i concur, quite a story you got here, but im more of a stoic person, sry.

i do not like to let myself drift into futuristic unicorns or past metaphors, but i understand what makes bitcoin valuable now, and i can assure you nothing else matters.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 09:53:10 PM
Actually a 1 MB blocksize limit ensures centralization because it forces the bulk of the transactions into centralized ledgers such as those kept by banks, credit cards companies. payment processors etc.

Running the Bitcoin client on a 10 year old feature phone or maybe even using a tabulating machine, punched cards and a telegraph line may be feasible but entirely pointless. Ok I jest. After all it was possible even in 1905 to send 1 MB of data over the telegraph network for a price. The price was just within the budget of JP Morgan. So why not reduce the blocksize to a few bytes since that was affordable for most people to send via the telegraph network back in 1905.

The reality is that technology does not stand still. In the future this debate will sound as crazy as my examples above.

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 09:34:34 PM
basically you want to turn the bitcoin p2P technology to a centralized supervisa?

seriously you think for one second that fancy-marketed-corporatist-freeloading-xt-corp-gov-coin would retain the same value as bitcoin does now?

why not use ripple then? they got it all up and running already. Roll Eyes





No. I am in favor of a de-centralized crypto-currency with mass adoption. It will be driven by individuals storing petabytes or more of data in the future just as they store gigabytes of data today. What I do know is that Bitcoin with a 1 MB blocksize limit will not be it.


au contraire mon ami, 1MB ensures a minimum level of decentralization.
serisouly, decentralized literally means random people across the globe get to run and access the bltcoin client.
not big data farming corporations *inclusively*. else where is the decentralization in this? where is the trust? coinbase? Huh Cheesy

also, whats that shortcut implying mass adoption would somehow be linked with the block size.
is 'the mass' just waiting for bigger blocks to get on board??? is it a facebook/coinbase thing?


anyway, from my edit above, i think we can agree by now that the increasing the block size is not an effective way to improve scalability, besides potentially jeopardize this decentralized hence trustless and censorship resistant network.


so i am still happy to discuss realistic scaling solutions. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 09:24:16 PM
basically you want to turn the bitcoin p2P technology to a centralized supervisa?

seriously you think for one second that fancy-marketed-corporatist-freeloading-xt-corp-gov-coin would retain the same value as bitcoin does now?

why not use ripple then? they got it all up and running already. Roll Eyes





No. I am in favor of a de-centralized crypto-currency with mass adoption. It will be driven by individuals storing petabytes or more of data in the future just as they store gigabytes of data today. What I do know is that Bitcoin with a 1 MB blocksize limit will not be it.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 09:16:30 PM
There is a very significant historical lesson here. Centralized transaction ledgers (such as credit cards) only became possible on a large scale when technology caused the cost of keeping the ledger to fall by many orders of magnitude. The same is true of de-centralized transaction ledgers such as Bitcoin. They will also become possible on a large scale as the cost of keeping the ledger continues to fall.

My take is that a true Bitcoin like de-centralized transaction ledger with at least the transaction volume of the current VISA network is only a matter to time. The only question is will this ledger be Bitcoin or some other cryptocurrency. In many ways Bitcoin runs the risk of becoming the Diner's Club of cryptocurrency for many of the same reasons. This is the fate of the first mover. Some of us wish to give Bitcoin the chance of becoming the VISA of cryptocurrency


basically you want to turn the bitcoin p2P technology to a centralized supervisa?

seriously you think for one second that a fancy-marketed-corporatist-freeloading-xt-corp-gov-coin would retain the same value as bitcoin does now?

why not use ripple then? they got it all up and running already. Roll Eyes


edit: and again, i understand that scaling in proportions to crush visa, paypal and western-frigging-union all together is not about block size in the first place.
so why not focusing on things that are actually relevant?
staff
Activity: 4256
Merit: 1203
I support freedom of choice
November 08, 2015, 09:14:14 PM
yes we all agree to scale bitcoin but not in the way that bitcoinXT is propose. Bitcoinxt movement has a hidden agenda and is clear that they want to take control of the bitcoin core.
And why Bitcoinxt (or BIP101) should have an hidden agenda (can you explain which one?) and Blockstream doesn't?  Roll Eyes

I saw the video, and he still talks about the Bitcoin Foundation, which it doesn't exist anymore currently.

He say that it is good that all the powers are well distributed between all the parties, and that the users and devs are the ones which own more of it.

Decentralize the devs is another good achievement Wink
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 09:11:43 PM
There is a very significant historical lesson here. Centralized transaction ledgers (such as credit cards) only became possible on a large scale when technology caused the cost of keeping the ledger to fall by many orders of magnitude. The same is true of de-centralized transaction ledgers such as Bitcoin. They will also become possible on a large scale as the cost of keeping the ledger continues to fall.

My take is that a true Bitcoin like de-centralized transaction ledger with at least the transaction volume of the current VISA network is only a matter to time. The only question is will this ledger be Bitcoin or some other cryptocurrency. In many ways Bitcoin runs the risk of becoming the Diner's Club of cryptocurrency for many of the same reasons. This is the fate of the first mover. Some of us wish to give Bitcoin the chance of becoming the VISA of cryptocurrency
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 08:59:15 PM


are we still talking about the same thing here?

how relevant to scaling bitcoin these IBM card storage are?




Scaling Bitcoin today is as relevant as scaling credit cards was back in the 1950's. http://newnumismatics.weebly.com/uploads/4/1/3/2/41323823/4474661.jpg?331 Does anyone really believe that the current transaction volume of the VISA network could happen with the punched card technology of the 1950s? Yet there are those that wish to cripple Bitcoin to the technology of today.

so to you bitcoin is a credit card Huh
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1142
Ιntergalactic Conciliator
November 08, 2015, 08:57:53 PM
yes we all agree to scale bitcoin but not in the way that bitcoinXT is propose. Bitcoinxt movement has a hidden agenda and is clear that they want to take control of the bitcoin core.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 08:55:20 PM


are we still talking about the same thing here?

how relevant to scaling bitcoin these IBM card storage are?




Scaling Bitcoin today is as relevant as scaling credit cards was back in the 1950's. http://newnumismatics.weebly.com/uploads/4/1/3/2/41323823/4474661.jpg?331 Does anyone really believe that the current transaction volume of the VISA network could happen with the punched card technology of the 1950s? Yet there are those that wish to cripple Bitcoin to the technology of today.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1142
Ιntergalactic Conciliator
November 08, 2015, 08:54:22 PM
I think is not silly everyone who defend the real meaning of bitcoin but everyone who try to take control of it, change it and transformed to be a small part to the old financial system. Bitcoin is more than that it creates a new financial system it is a revolution.
Is clear this from whom is behind the support of the Bitcoin hijack.
And for everyone who say that is very simple to fork bitcoin i wll advice him to spent some time to watch this lecture

https://youtu.be/AikLs1P4_PA

before and months after a violence fork like bitcoinXT we will talk about an economical chaos in bitcoin ecosystem or in other world i will advise everyone if it coming a fork like that the best option is to sell his bitcoins. They will have any value after that.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 08:45:59 PM


are we still talking about the same thing here?

how relevant to scaling bitcoin these IBM card storage are?


legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 08:41:13 PM
...


I asked: What is your solution for Bitcoin to scale? I did not ask: What is not your solution for Bitcoin to scale?. There is a big difference.

i understand that blocksize is not a solution to scale. what do you understand?

I understand that storing 4 GB of data in 2015 does not require a warehouse full of punched cards and the budget of a superpower as it did in 1959.

what 4Gb of data?
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 08:39:01 PM
...


I asked: What is your solution for Bitcoin to scale? I did not ask: What is not your solution for Bitcoin to scale?. There is a big difference.

i understand that blocksize is not a solution to scale. what do you understand?

I understand that storing 4 GB of data in 2015 does not require a warehouse full of punched cards and the budget of a superpower as it did in 1959.

Edit: Blocksize is the solution to scale unless of course you plan to store the blockchain using IBM punched cards at 80 bytes per card.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 08:34:48 PM
...


I asked: What is your solution for Bitcoin to scale? I did not ask: What is not your solution for Bitcoin to scale?. There is a big difference.

i understand that blocksize is not a solution to scale. what do you understand?
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 08:32:12 PM
...


I asked: What is your solution for Bitcoin to scale? I did not ask: What is not your solution for Bitcoin to scale?. There is a big difference.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
November 08, 2015, 08:12:24 PM
...

bitcoin is perfectly working as of now - and despite the spam attacks it undertook.

and for the thousand time, blocksize is irrelevant to scaling effectively.

...

So what is your solution for Bitcoin to scale?

surely by not arbitrarily modifying a parameter that is irrelevant to the matter at first.

i mean, are you guys really that stupid?

pretending to understand what you obviously don't?
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
November 08, 2015, 07:59:43 PM
...

bitcoin is perfectly working as of now - and despite the spam attacks it undertook.

and for the thousand time, blocksize is irrelevant to scaling effectively.

...

So what is your solution for Bitcoin to scale?
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