Time to stand up to the XT shills here! - page 10.

HostFat

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Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 02:01:53 PM

Any XT node would could be tricked into accepting a block ...

Again how much costs this attack? How much costs making a block bigger than 1 MB? Roll Eyes

Even if all miners will happily lying about making blocks bigger than 1 MB by changing the block-version-numbers, they need to make a real bigger block to succeed in some way to make a double spend, and it isn't cheaper at all!

da2ce7

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Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:50:17 PM

The only way to make a double attack is making blocks bigger tham 1MB, easy and most of all cheaper

Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 01:44:18 PM

Let me assure you that my previous statement is technically correct. The Bitcoin Core uses would be completely unaware that the miners have fucked-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, and no money would be wasted in the Bitcoin Core world.

The only way to make a double attack is making blocks bigger than 1MB, just one time to achieve it.

Easy and most of all cheaper Roll Eyes

I'll save this quote in full to show at this date you didn't understand some basic double spend attacks.

But I will explain this attack.

Any XT node would could be tricked into accepting a block that an attacker KNEW would not confirm in the rest of the network.
Any SPV miner may then mine on-top of your block blindly, creating a longer chain at a much cheaper price.

Thus reducing the sybil requirements.
The attacker could more cheaply and reliably make a longer false-chain, fooling a XT node into thinking that it has real confirmations.

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:55:05 PM

If it will happen, it will be because the whole market will want it, deal with it.

The main issue as hand here is not freedom of choice but manipulation through various schemes in order to recruit as many people as possible. This is not the "will" of the users, nor what the market wants. The average joe is easy to be fooled and this is what made XT gain traction. I just can not comprehend how anyone with any common sense would want to join a person who wants to be a benevolent dictator in a decentralized system. This is not false information both Hearn and Gavin have said it at least once.

Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:55:05 PM

Miners will not move on something that doesn't accept their money, or they could just move/jump on another altcoin everyday already (which they obviously didn't)

You're talking about a drastic situation which will not happen. A lot of people would be using Core even if this "industry" moves to XT. There's going to be plenty of people for miners to sell to. I doubt that even if XT succeeds in any way, that the usage of Core will come down to near 0.

HostFat

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Quote from: Lauda on November 08, 2015, 01:45:22 PM

Right back at you; how can a network operate without miners? Miners can sell for cash (i.e. no need for exchanges), a network can't operate at all without miners. It's pretty obvious who has the upper hand here. They're the sole reason that the network is as strong and secure as it is today (hashrate).

It can't.
The all argument started from some statements that someone/something was forcing miners and other to move to BIP101.
This is just false and impossible, because it can't happen without the whole agreement all the main maintainers of the network (exchanges, payment processor, nodes and users)

Miners will not move on something that doesn't accept their money, or they could just move/jump on another altcoin everyday already (which they obviously didn't)

If it will happen, it will be because the whole market will want it, deal with it.

HostFat

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Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 01:44:18 PM

Let me assure you that my previous statement is technically correct. The Bitcoin Core uses would be completely unaware that the miners have fucked-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, and no money would be wasted in the Bitcoin Core world.

The only way to make a double attack is making blocks bigger than 1MB, just one time to achieve it.

Easy and most of all cheaper Roll Eyes

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:38:24 PM

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

Right back at you; how can a network operate without miners? Miners can sell for cash (i.e. no need for exchanges), a network can't operate at all without miners. It's pretty obvious who has the upper hand here. They're the sole reason that the network is as strong and secure as it is today (hashrate).

da2ce7

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Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:38:24 PM

Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 01:25:57 PM

No BIP101 (as coded in Bitcoin XT) will activate when 75% of the blocks flag it. The miners being honest or dishonest is not relevant.

Bitcoin XT activation of BIP101 doesn't depend on "exchanges, payment processors, services ..." (or anything else).

You are not correct with your statement. For example, 76% of the miners may choose to fuck-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, by falsely flagging BIP101 - Then opening up the XT nodes to cheap double spend attacks whenever they (or anyone) wants.

You are missing the whole picture.

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

He can't. It's the same as simple being dishonest as a miner, making false blocks or else, the network will just ignore his blocks.

Do you think that miners will be happy to make useless garbage blocks, wasting time and "money" because they prefer to? There is no way that this will happen.

And this is because my previous phrases are 100% correct, that is needed that large majority of the whole network wants the BIP101 to happen.
Can you understand it now?

Miners are just complacent slaves, they have no power to change anything and nodes (users/services -> nodes) don't want.

I'm saving this entire quote here for future reference to show that at this date you didn't understand the basic properties of block-version-numbers.

However,

Let me assure you that my previous statement is technically correct. The Bitcoin Core uses would be completely unaware that the miners have fucked-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, and no money would be wasted in the Bitcoin Core world.

CIYAM

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Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:38:24 PM

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

He can't. It's the same as simple being dishonest as a miner, making false blocks or else, the network will just ignore his blocks.

As the major Chinese exchanges have all stated that they do not support the BIP then your statement about "all the exchanges" is obviously rubbish (there is no such agreement between all the exchanges).

There is only *one* main company (which isn't even an exchange) that is pushing this XT agenda.

da2ce7

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Quote from: Lauda on November 08, 2015, 01:20:10 PM

So the 'stand up to the XT shills' thread became a Gavin and Core vs XT discussion? How about we actually discuss the topic here. The problem does not only lie in random XT shills but the information that they're spreading. They are usually spreading false information, false promises in order to manipulate people around here. We've seen it in a lot of threads.

Sure, however one of the best responses to shills is ridicule.

To show how an XT shill's position is ridiculous, in a brain-dead-sad way, is an effective method of shifting the debate from technical matters (that are resoundingly resolved), to a tacit of mocking opposition being a absolute complete mockery.

HostFat

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Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 01:25:57 PM

No BIP101 (as coded in Bitcoin XT) will activate when 75% of the blocks flag it. The miners being honest or dishonest is not relevant.

Bitcoin XT activation of BIP101 doesn't depend on "exchanges, payment processors, services ..." (or anything else).

You are not correct with your statement. For example, 76% of the miners may choose to fuck-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, by falsely flagging BIP101 - Then opening up the XT nodes to cheap double spend attacks whenever they (or anyone) wants.

You are missing the whole picture.

How can a fucking miner sell his prize if all the exchange aren't using his money!?

He can't. It's the same as simple being dishonest as a miner, making false blocks or else, the network will just ignore his blocks.

Do you think that miners will be happy to make useless garbage blocks, wasting time and "money" because they prefer to? There is no way that this will happen.

And this is because my previous phrases are 100% correct, that is needed that large majority of the whole network wants the BIP101 to happen.
Can you understand it now?

Miners are just complacent slaves, they have no power to change anything and nodes (users/services -> nodes) don't want.

CIYAM

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To add a little bit of "logic" to this let's just look into why there is this sudden need to increase the block sizes.

Are they getting full now? In general no (around 50%) and when they have been full that has been only at times when spam attacks are happening (so nothing to do with actual consumer demand for BTC txs).

Another typical argument is: the average person isn't adopting Bitcoin so we need bigger blocks.

Hmm... but if the average person doesn't even earn any Bitcoin then why on earth are we expecting a huge number of new txs?

I've pointed out before that the remittance market is the biggest and most suitable match for BTC but it barely even has had any impact in that multi-billion dollar industry.

If the amount of effort that was being put into trying to push XT was actually put into to trying to get BTC into the remittance market then maybe we'd actually have a "real reason" to need bigger blocks quicker.

CIYAM

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Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 01:25:57 PM

Bitcoin XT activation of BIP101 doesn't depend on "exchanges, payment processors, services ..." (or anything else).

Yup - yet the shills keep on trying to say that what matters is "nodes" not "miners" (and tend to go off into "freedom of choice" tangents from there).

da2ce7

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Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:16:26 PM

You are right, but the choice is still in the hands of the users, and not on something else (like a bunch of devs)
BIP101 can't activate without the majority of nodes (and exchanges, payment processors, services ...) and miners.

No BIP101 (as coded in Bitcoin XT) will activate when 75% of the blocks flag it. The miners being honest or dishonest is not relevant.

Bitcoin XT activation of BIP101 doesn't depend on "exchanges, payment processors, services ..." (or anything else).

You are not correct with your statement. For example, 76% of the miners may choose to fuck-over the Bitcoin XT nodes, by falsely flagging BIP101 - Then opening up the XT nodes to cheap double spend attacks whenever they (or anyone) wants.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 01:24:14 PM

Why is not the opposite? Roll Eyes

How about you quote the misinformation rather than just making such statements?

Basically I think we are all getting sick and tired of the XT shills that don't even understand the technical arguments but just seemingly want to have Mike Hearn as their leader.

HostFat

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Quote from: Lauda on November 08, 2015, 01:20:10 PM

They are usually spreading false information, false promises in order to manipulate people around here. We've seen it in a lot of threads.

Why is not the opposite? Roll Eyes

Lauda

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Terminated.

So the 'stand up to the XT shills' thread became a Gavin and Core vs XT discussion? How about we actually discuss the topic here. The problem does not only lie in random XT shills but the information that they're spreading. They are usually spreading false information, false promises in order to manipulate people around here. We've seen it in a lot of threads.

Quote from: Posum578 on November 08, 2015, 07:16:56 AM

The rise of block size to 2MB or higher is essential in the next two years to make bitcoin usable for most people and not to increase the transaction fee too much.

Sure. Almost everyone agrees with that, however nobody with common sense agrees with XT and BIP101. Their shilling efforts won't help them.

HostFat

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Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 01:10:18 PM

Except for the unfortunate fact that Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin XT are mathematically mutually exclusive.

You are right, but the choice is still in the hands of the users, and not on something else (like a bunch of devs)
BIP101 can't activate without the majority of nodes (and exchanges, payment processors, services ...) and miners.
None of them will make a change if it doesn't fill the requests of their users.

da2ce7

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Quote from: HostFat on November 08, 2015, 12:59:43 PM

You can see here that now is still contributing on XT:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-xt
His last message is two hours ago.

He is contributing everywhere he can. (whatever you think he is doing is good or bad)
He isn't going somewhere and then going back.

I think that he is acting without any mutually exclusive way of thinking.

Except for the unfortunate fact that Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin XT are mathematically mutually exclusive.

Slightly off-topic, but ever wondered how you gain 'lolcow' points in the bitcoin technical community: look no further!

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6579

HostFat

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@da2ce7
Like the market, it follows the more liquid way.
Bitcon is still a place for permissionless innovation, if it isn't possible somewhere, you can try/add it somewhere else.

Still, users have the last choice. (while it possible for them to know there there are others ...)

You can see here that now is still contributing on XT:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-xt
His last message is two hours ago.

He is contributing everywhere he can. (whatever you think he is doing is good or bad)
He isn't going somewhere and then going back.

I think that he is acting without any mutually exclusive way of thinking.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: da2ce7 on November 08, 2015, 12:51:36 PM

I want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that Gavin is a *bad actor*, I'm just supplying evidence to support my claim that Bitcoin XT is considered a laughing stock from the Bitcoin Technical Community.

Thanks for supplying some actually relevant information (we don't get much apart from "freedom of speech" idiocy from the shills).

Topic: Time to stand up to the XT shills here! - page 10. (Read 10601 times)