Failure to refund BTC to customers how about we start using that metric?
Or customers unhappy currently with explanations for the failure to ship?
Ya let us not cast stones in a glass house.
I am proud to have agreed with our cooperative members to pull the plug and then started proactively refunding everyone that ordered it was the right thing to do. Can you say the same? No because you lack the moral integrity to do the right thing for your customers and there is AMPLE if not OVERWHELMING evidence of that score.
Topic: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action - page 22. (Read 39351 times)
August 25, 2013, 10:49:43 PM
August 25, 2013, 10:48:13 PM
Can't comment on the first as it is mere speculation. It does fit pretty well, as we've all seen the issues with stock of power supplies, chips not being delivered on time, etc.
Yep, pure speculation.The basic board components aren't unusual, sure. The custom ASIC however is, and that might have instantly turned off some manufacturers, who would either turn down the opportunity or simply price their tenders higher to avoid being awarded the contract (this happens in all avenues of business, not just electronics and IT). They see it as a risk they would rather not take.
Putting the chips on the boards is the simplest part of the entire process. There are dozens of options in the US alone and there is over capacity in the system at present so it would be trivial for them to switch production houses. It is also the least expensive process in the chain of production.The DIY boards have one massive advantage - they have the lessons learnt from BFL and its boards shemozzle. They know the true power consumption of the chips upfront and can design the power supply to suit. They have reference designs from BFL to work with too, if they want to be extra lazy. Lastly, they aren't working with the kinds of quantity that BFL is. The hardest work has already been done for them.
BFL has already learned these lessons and produced a board from them. The components are off the shelf and trivial to source, there are dozens of production houses to choose from. Producing the boards can't explain 4 months of delays.
Sadly, contracts can explain delays. There could well be an exclusivity clause which allowed for a lower price through giving guaranteed business. It would of course be crazy to accept such a thing, but we don't know the nature of the contracts. Even better, they may have confidentiality clauses, so no matter what is asked, BFL may not be legally able to actually tell us anything about it.
EDIT:
If somehow my speculation is magically right, Josh, why not drop a comment saying BFL can't comment on that due to legal requirements? Maybe then people would stop asking the same questions over and over again.
They will, so it doesn't matter. People still claim we've never shipped FPGA's and that it's all a scam. There's no possible way to convince the people who are so blinded by their own mental instability that they can't accept proof to the contrary of their warped reality.
August 25, 2013, 10:44:50 PM
Can't comment on the first as it is mere speculation. It does fit pretty well, as we've all seen the issues with stock of power supplies, chips not being delivered on time, etc.
Yep, pure speculation.The basic board components aren't unusual, sure. The custom ASIC however is, and that might have instantly turned off some manufacturers, who would either turn down the opportunity or simply price their tenders higher to avoid being awarded the contract (this happens in all avenues of business, not just electronics and IT). They see it as a risk they would rather not take.
Putting the chips on the boards is the simplest part of the entire process. There are dozens of options in the US alone and there is over capacity in the system at present so it would be trivial for them to switch production houses. It is also the least expensive process in the chain of production.The DIY boards have one massive advantage - they have the lessons learnt from BFL and its boards shemozzle. They know the true power consumption of the chips upfront and can design the power supply to suit. They have reference designs from BFL to work with too, if they want to be extra lazy. Lastly, they aren't working with the kinds of quantity that BFL is. The hardest work has already been done for them.
BFL has already learned these lessons and produced a board from them. The components are off the shelf and trivial to source, there are dozens of production houses to choose from. Producing the boards can't explain 4 months of delays.
Sadly, contracts can explain delays. There could well be an exclusivity clause which allowed for a lower price through giving guaranteed business. It would of course be crazy to accept such a thing, but we don't know the nature of the contracts. Even better, they may have confidentiality clauses, so no matter what is asked, BFL may not be legally able to actually tell us anything about it.
EDIT:
If somehow my speculation is magically right, Josh, why not drop a comment saying BFL can't comment on that due to legal requirements? Maybe then people would stop asking the same questions over and over again.
August 25, 2013, 10:44:32 PM
Quote
The DIY boards have one massive advantage - they have the lessons learnt from BFL and its boards shemozzle. They know the true power consumption of the chips upfront and can design the power supply to suit. They have reference designs from BFL to work with too, if they want to be extra lazy. Lastly, they aren't working with the kinds of quantity that BFL is. The hardest work has already been done for them.
And Bicknellski still couldn't even manage to ship a single board out.
Hilarious, the pot calling the kettle black on shipping issues.
PSA in case you ordered from the Pot:
If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms
There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yes-you-can-get-a-refund-from-bfl-266945
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/butterfly-labs-did-everything-they-could-to-make-getting-a-refund-impossible-272585
August 25, 2013, 10:44:18 PM
Josh, what products have you registered with the FCC?
August 25, 2013, 10:43:01 PM
Still waiting for an answer.
Did the FCC receive a BFL mining unit for testing?
How hard is it to answer 1 question?
Did the FCC receive a BFL mining unit for testing?
How hard is it to answer 1 question?
Still waiting on proof, Bick. Like I said, I'll answer all your questions the moment you provide proof of your accusations. Until then, we've got nothing to talk about, unless you want to retract your false accusations, admit you lied, and offer an apology, then I'll consider it.
August 25, 2013, 10:41:42 PM
Still waiting for an answer.
Did the FCC receive a BFL mining unit for testing?
How hard is it to answer 1 question?
Did the FCC receive a BFL mining unit for testing?
How hard is it to answer 1 question?
August 25, 2013, 10:41:12 PM
Can't comment on the first as it is mere speculation. It does fit pretty well, as we've all seen the issues with stock of power supplies, chips not being delivered on time, etc.
Yep, pure speculation.The basic board components aren't unusual, sure. The custom ASIC however is, and that might have instantly turned off some manufacturers, who would either turn down the opportunity or simply price their tenders higher to avoid being awarded the contract (this happens in all avenues of business, not just electronics and IT). They see it as a risk they would rather not take.
Putting the chips on the boards is the simplest part of the entire process. There are dozens of options in the US alone and there is over capacity in the system at present so it would be trivial for them to switch production houses. It is also the least expensive process in the chain of production.The DIY boards have one massive advantage - they have the lessons learnt from BFL and its boards shemozzle. They know the true power consumption of the chips upfront and can design the power supply to suit. They have reference designs from BFL to work with too, if they want to be extra lazy. Lastly, they aren't working with the kinds of quantity that BFL is. The hardest work has already been done for them.
BFL has already learned these lessons and produced a board from them. The components are off the shelf and trivial to source, there are dozens of production houses to choose from. Producing the boards can't explain 4 months of delays.
August 25, 2013, 10:38:13 PM
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3009147
Can you point out the proof, because I'm not seeing it. Just in case you wern't aware of the definition, let me help you out: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proof
There's nothing in that post but fantasy and questions, neither of which falls under the purview of "proof."
Can you point out the proof, because I'm not seeing it. Just in case you wern't aware of the definition, let me help you out: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proof
There's nothing in that post but fantasy and questions, neither of which falls under the purview of "proof."
August 25, 2013, 10:32:18 PM
The logistics add up fine if you assume that some poor decisions were made with regard to contracts which have no escape clause.
So your explanation is: BFL signed some bizarro contract with a shady supplier that is screwing them, but that somehow BFL can't lawyer their way out of it nor did they provide this explanation (which if true would completely absolve them of fault) to the community.What probably complicated the process is the provision of chips to be mounted. This affects the board manufacturer's standard supply chain and I'd expect would attract higher costs for retooling and any custom processes involved.
Nothing on their boards is outlandish. Everything can be had from standard suppliers (like digikey). They at least got that part right.This would in turn have affected the tendering process and may have resulted in selecting a manufacturer for the board who wouldn't charge as much for the custom aspects, but which can't do turnaround nearly as quickly.
There is nothing custom or crazy on the board, it is actually quite simple and straightforward.Notice that the people doing BFL DIY boards completed their projects and got them hashing in a short time with few problems.
Can't comment on the first as it is mere speculation. It does fit pretty well, as we've all seen the issues with stock of power supplies, chips not being delivered on time, etc.
Lawyers are expensive, and very few companies will come out and say they got screwed by a supplier due to the effect it has on peoples perceptions of them. Personally if it was the case that BFL did get screwed by their suppliers, I'd be happier if they did come out and say it, as it would then silence a lot of the whining on forums such as these. Chances are though, if they did come out and say it at this stage they wouldn't be believed anyway, so that might be another reason why they say nothing.
The basic board components aren't unusual, sure. The custom ASIC however is, and that might have instantly turned off some manufacturers, who would either turn down the opportunity or simply price their tenders higher to avoid being awarded the contract (this happens in all avenues of business, not just electronics and IT). They see it as a risk they would rather not take.
The DIY boards have one massive advantage - they have the lessons learnt from BFL and its boards shemozzle. They know the true power consumption of the chips upfront and can design the power supply to suit. They have reference designs from BFL to work with too, if they want to be extra lazy. Lastly, they aren't working with the kinds of quantity that BFL is. The hardest work has already been done for them.
August 25, 2013, 10:31:49 PM
a con man who works for a convicted fraudster
August 25, 2013, 10:29:12 PM
Still waiting on that FCC certification for your devices. Did you have that FCC certification number Josh?
Quote
But instead you cut and post more of the same crap, trying to avoid providing...
All Inaba does on these forums is make personal attacks on people. He hasn't posted anything of substance here in months.
August 25, 2013, 10:28:23 PM
Lies lies lies ...I think u lie so much you forget what you have said mensa boy
Working in computer science ....
1) Not in Mensa, IQ not high enough.Working in computer science ....
I fail to see your point, I was working in Computer Science not corporate shipping. I can't play a piano either.
2) Was referring to M.I.T. did not graduate
3) Electronic Technician in the Navy.
You are getting as bad a K9 with cutting and pasting irrevelant things out of context.... are you a sock puppet too?
Maybe your depression is becoming delusion? Schizophrenia even?
You really need to get a check up dude.
Is this what you find satisfaction in this non stop drivel and name calling on a forum.... MIT & whatever rubbish you claim is being demonstrated plain and clear...
Good work....
You also cannot tell I am baiting you. Too bad, so sad.
HaVe a nice day! I know I am!
August 25, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
Still waiting on that FCC certification for your devices. Did you have that FCC certification number Josh?
edit:
Oh, and btw the only one coming across as unbalanced is you, Josh.
Quote
But instead you cut and post more of the same crap, trying to avoid providing...
edit:
Oh, and btw the only one coming across as unbalanced is you, Josh.
August 25, 2013, 10:23:44 PM
Have you answered the FCC question yet?
crickets
Funny how shady people want to make it about the person and not about the facts.
Still didn't answer the question. Another call to proof.
Did you send the unit to the FCC for testing or not?
Simple yes or no will suffice.
How about we talk about
Failure to deliver.
Lack of transparency.
Inexperience in manufacturing leading to long delays and inferior products.
How you lied in your forums to your customers about the refund policy changes.
and the list goes on and on... but by all means why not go after a guy and threaten him and his job. Yes that certainly speaks well for BFL and their need to make it "personal". I welcome you contact my boss here is his email [email protected] be sure to be specific and site EVIDENCE to support your theories. Unlike you Josh I have nothing to hide and I won't be backing down from this sort of threat. You ain't dealing with someone who needs hide behind personal ad hominem attacks all I have to do is point out your failures of which there are many.
Still waiting on that proof you promised for your accusations. But instead you cut and post more of the same crap, trying to avoid providing the proof. Cue the "I'm sure the proof is around here somewhere" defense you've tried to use already. I'll answer all your question, Bick, as soon as you provide that proof. Yes, that's right, I will answer every question you have when you provide the proof.
The fact that your boss is your dad explains much as to why you have a job. Nepotism at it's finest, eh? No real company would hire someone as emotionally unbalanced as you unless you were good at hiding it, which wouldn't surprise me. I feel sorry for the kids you come in contact with though.
You need to look up the definition of "ad hominem" attacks, young man. That's pretty much all you do sling around. You provide no argument from a position of logic, it's all supposition, opinion and fantasy on your part. Like I said, provide proof of your accusations. You've provided exactly zero so far, all of your attacks are ad hominem, since they have been directed at me with no facts to back them up.
August 25, 2013, 10:22:11 PM
The logistics add up fine if you assume that some poor decisions were made with regard to contracts which have no escape clause.
So your explanation is: BFL signed some bizarro contract with a shady supplier that is screwing them, but that somehow BFL can't lawyer their way out of it nor did they provide this explanation (which if true would completely absolve them of fault) to the community.What probably complicated the process is the provision of chips to be mounted. This affects the board manufacturer's standard supply chain and I'd expect would attract higher costs for retooling and any custom processes involved.
Nothing on their boards is outlandish. Everything can be had from standard suppliers (like digikey). They at least got that part right.This would in turn have affected the tendering process and may have resulted in selecting a manufacturer for the board who wouldn't charge as much for the custom aspects, but which can't do turnaround nearly as quickly.
There is nothing custom or crazy on the board, it is actually quite simple and straightforward.Notice that the people doing BFL DIY boards completed their projects and got them hashing in a short time with few problems.
August 25, 2013, 10:21:08 PM
Haha Bick, you are priceless. You see me everywhere! I feel both honored and sullied at the thought of the fact that you are so obsessed with me that everyone and everything must be me, out to get you!
Seek help man. If you really are working with kids, I hope someone knows your IRL identity and can let your employers know you are mentally unbalanced and emotionally erratic, you are a danger to children without a doubt.
Seek help man. If you really are working with kids, I hope someone knows your IRL identity and can let your employers know you are mentally unbalanced and emotionally erratic, you are a danger to children without a doubt.
Is that what u got....he is a teacher and you are calling the guy a peodophile ....
.... the depth of your depravity shows the moral character that you are and the company that you represent
Get ready for prison as this is the only place you will be amongst people of similar attitudes and moral fibre
August 25, 2013, 10:19:36 PM
Lies lies lies ...I think u lie so much you forget what you have said mensa boy
Working in computer science ....
1) Not in Mensa, IQ not high enough.Working in computer science ....
I fail to see your point, I was working in Computer Science not corporate shipping. I can't play a piano either.
2) Was referring to M.I.T. did not graduate
3) Electronic Technician in the Navy.
You are getting as bad a K9 with cutting and pasting irrevelant things out of context.... are you a sock puppet too?
Maybe your depression is becoming delusion? Schizophrenia even?
You really need to get a check up dude.
You need to check yourself as its a bit out of control !!!
Is this what you find satisfaction in this non stop drivel and name calling on a forum.... MIT & whatever rubbish you claim is being demonstrated plain and clear...
Good work....
August 25, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
Can't build things if there isn't the stock to do so. The output of BFL seems less constrained by their assembly and more by their suppliers not supplying parts fast enough or in sufficient quantity for them to massively scale up production. Also explains why some Mondays apparently have more shipped than others.
I agree that BFL is constrained by a lack of parts.
I do find it strange that they have had 4 months while knowing exactly how many parts they needed to order. Supposedly they have all the chips they need (if they didn't, then there is no way they could get them in time from the new chip order to build devices to make the Sept 30th date). That leaves cases (which they said they had), power supplies (which they said they are not waiting on for shipping), screws (shouldn't be hard to order), heatsinks (also should not be hard to order), and PCBs. Now any decent PCB production house should be able to crank out thousands of the things in a couple of weeks. BFL knew how many boards they needed, why didn't they order them?
I'd venture on issues with case delivery and boards. It would depend on their contracts, if they're locked in with no penalty clauses it would make it very difficult to have any recourse. Poor planning and/or logistics most likely.
The reason I suspect cases are a possibility is that they are bulky and take up a lot of space. If inventory capacity is limited these would be one of the first things I'd minimise inventory stock of, and increase the number of smaller orders to ensure regular supply.
Boards would store more easily and could be tested without cases for binning and burn-in. Downside is suppliers are probably more expensive and quantity runs considerably less variable. Running a smaller run would drop your priority down the list, and you wouldn't stand much chance of getting regular shipments of small batches.
In Silicon valley, you can turn a board order of < 10,000 units around in 2 weeks. All the on board components are standard and should be trivial to source. If BFL was trying to do placement and mounting of the components themselves (which would be retarded) then I could see the endless delays. Even I don't think they are that stupid, and even if they didn't outsource the placement until after they got the boards made, they still should be able to get 10K boards done in under a month.The logistics just don't add up.
The logistics add up fine if you assume that some poor decisions were made with regard to contracts which have no escape clause.
What probably complicated the process is the provision of chips to be mounted. This affects the board manufacturer's standard supply chain and I'd expect would attract higher costs for retooling and any custom processes involved. This would in turn have affected the tendering process and may have resulted in selecting a manufacturer for the board who wouldn't charge as much for the custom aspects, but which can't do turnaround nearly as quickly.
August 25, 2013, 10:13:30 PM
Since we are feeling chatty today Joshua. Why does the company you represent violate FTC regulations with not providing refunds? The law is very easy to understand for someone of your mental caliber.
I saw some three syllable words in the FTC rules. I don't think he can handle that.
That would explain why BFL is violating the law regarding refunds.
Nice segway into a Public Service Announcement:
If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms
There are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yes-you-can-get-a-refund-from-bfl-266945
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/butterfly-labs-did-everything-they-could-to-make-getting-a-refund-impossible-272585
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