Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 10.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:29:21 AM

I'd like to add that this "power" is very valuable. If u forge the next block u decide what orders to include into it. And this decision will change the market.

Actually this is something that concerns me far more than the initial distribution or the PoS reward for forging.

If AE bid/ask tx's can be arbitrarily included or not in a block then I can see a lot of manipulation occurring in this part of the system (another reason that I am not really hooked on the whole AE thing).

This of course could be compounded by huge stake holders "colluding" to say hold back orders.

landomata

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Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 08:27:37 AM

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 08:19:40 AM

Actually the Nxt ecosystem is what gives value....that's why the price in fiat terms doesn't matter.

Wait, what? When Assets are backed by and bought with NXT, NXT will have a value in fiat terms because of these assets and vice versa.

Or do you think the fiat world ends in the next months?

I am saying the Nxt ecosystem has value no matter whether it is priced in USD or GOLD or WHEAT or some other currency not yet created...if it survives and continues to grow it will have intrinsic value.

Like the Internet.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 08:28:40 AM

But it is not fair!

What r u talking about? Nxt offers the most fair way.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:23:31 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 08:17:15 AM

That is my understanding, too. And CfB said something similar also, I think (coins for currency, NXT for value)

NXT itself is backed by power to influence on the whole system. If u own 1M NXT then u'll forge each 1000th block. And u can charge fiat money for inclusion transactions into blocks.

I'd like to add that this "power" is very valuable. If u forge the next block u decide what orders to include into it. And this decision will change the market.

NXT -> Power -> Ability to change the world

sepehr

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Activity: 399

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Cryptocurrency Evangelist

Hi BCNext and everybody,

IMHO, The problem with Nxt is that the person have more Nxt receives the transaction fees.
But it is not fair!
We should pay the fee to the server and peer hosts and administrators directly.

I'm deep in Nxt but by the way don't doubt to invest on a coin that considers the above fair paradigm.

Thanks,
Sepehr

bitcoinpaul

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Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 08:19:40 AM

Actually the Nxt ecosystem is what gives value....that's why the price in fiat terms doesn't matter.

Wait, what? When Assets are backed by and bought with NXT, NXT will have a value in fiat terms because of these assets and vice versa.

Or do you think the fiat world ends in the next months?

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 08:17:15 AM

That is my understanding, too. And CfB said something similar also, I think (coins for currency, NXT for value)

NXT itself is backed by power to influence on the whole system. If u own 1M NXT then u'll forge each 1000th block. And u can charge fiat money for inclusion transactions into blocks.

landomata

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Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 08:17:15 AM

Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 07:20:29 AM

BCNext created a platform to build economy on. We use NXT as coins but BCNext planned that "money" will be built on top of Nxt core. Anyway it doesn't really matter what he wants, Nxt will evolve the way the community wants it to evolve. I wouldn't pay much attention to BCNext's plans.

But isn't this the natural way for things to happen? I mean it's not like following somebody's plans. It will happen naturally, big businesses will be built on top of Nxt and they will take care of it and supprot it with forging, while fees will be lowered and there won't be people who forge "for the sake of forging". Coins will be issued backed by Nxt and will play the role of means of exchnage, but Nxt will still be something like a reserve currency. I thought this evolution was inevitable. Is this what BCnext meant or i didn't understand it?

That is my understanding, too. And CfB said something similar also, I think (coins for currency, NXT for value)

Actually the Nxt ecosystem is what gives value....that's why the price in fiat terms doesn't matter.

These businesses and services all exist inside the Nxt ecosystem....the stronger the ecosystem the more valuable it becomes.

bitcoinpaul

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Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 07:20:29 AM

Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

@Come-from-Beyond, I am not sure if I understand this right. I see to possible interpretations:

1st:
BCnext doesn't want the price of nxt to rise (i find this unlogical because even if we issue coins backed by Nxt, the value of Nxt will still rise even if we issue more and more of them. The value of those coins will not rise.

2nd:
BCnext means that we shouldn't just hold Nxts and wait until their price rises, but rather we should make services and develop businesses on top of Nxt in order to support Nxt and consequently it's price will grow.

Or neither of them? Sorry, i wish i didn't care about price, but i do, if it rises i would be able to start a business connected with nxt, work from home and don't see much people, be part of the revolution and see how banks' revenue is crashing. I hope this doesnt sound too bad.

BCNext created a platform to build economy on. We use NXT as coins but BCNext planned that "money" will be built on top of Nxt core. Anyway it doesn't really matter what he wants, Nxt will evolve the way the community wants it to evolve. I wouldn't pay much attention to BCNext's plans.

But isn't this the natural way for things to happen? I mean it's not like following somebody's plans. It will happen naturally, big businesses will be built on top of Nxt and they will take care of it and supprot it with forging, while fees will be lowered and there won't be people who forge "for the sake of forging". Coins will be issued backed by Nxt and will play the role of means of exchnage, but Nxt will still be something like a reserve currency. I thought this evolution was inevitable. Is this what BCnext meant or i didn't understand it?

That is my understanding, too. And CfB said something similar also, I think (coins for currency, NXT for value)

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 08:12:37 AM

But isn't this the natural way for things to happen? I mean it's not like following somebody's plans. It will happen naturally, big businesses will be built on top of Nxt and they will take care of it and supprot it with forging, while fees will be lowered and there won't be people who forge "for the sake of forging". Coins will be issued backed by Nxt and will play the role of means of exchnage, but Nxt will still be something like a reserve currency. I thought this evolution was inevitable. Is this what BCnext meant or i didn't understand it?

Seems u r right.

Isildur23

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Activity: 178

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 07:20:29 AM

Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

@Come-from-Beyond, I am not sure if I understand this right. I see to possible interpretations:

1st:
BCnext doesn't want the price of nxt to rise (i find this unlogical because even if we issue coins backed by Nxt, the value of Nxt will still rise even if we issue more and more of them. The value of those coins will not rise.

2nd:
BCnext means that we shouldn't just hold Nxts and wait until their price rises, but rather we should make services and develop businesses on top of Nxt in order to support Nxt and consequently it's price will grow.

Or neither of them? Sorry, i wish i didn't care about price, but i do, if it rises i would be able to start a business connected with nxt, work from home and don't see much people, be part of the revolution and see how banks' revenue is crashing. I hope this doesnt sound too bad.

BCNext created a platform to build economy on. We use NXT as coins but BCNext planned that "money" will be built on top of Nxt core. Anyway it doesn't really matter what he wants, Nxt will evolve the way the community wants it to evolve. I wouldn't pay much attention to BCNext's plans.

But isn't this the natural way for things to happen? I mean it's not like following somebody's plans. It will happen naturally, big businesses will be built on top of Nxt and they will take care of it and supprot it with forging, while fees will be lowered and there won't be people who forge "for the sake of forging". Coins will be issued backed by Nxt and will play the role of means of exchnage, but Nxt will still be something like a reserve currency. I thought this evolution was inevitable. Is this what BCnext meant or i didn't understand it?

pandaisftw

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Activity: 224

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 06:58:15 AM

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:40:43 AM

Lets discuss after a month.

No worries - am sure we'll see some interesting ideas coming out once the AE is live.

I guess I am just a little more skeptical than most about its benefits other than removing the reliance upon 3rd party servers/DBs to store information (which in itself of course is a very clear benefit).

Just wanted to say thank you CIYAM for being levelheaded all the time. It's good to have constructive criticism!

MyZhre

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Quote from: 2Kool4Skewl on February 10, 2014, 06:06:47 AM

I think it is best for NXT to have multiple purposes.

1 - As a store of value because of its scarcity.

2 - As an intermediate currency between IOUs issued on the asset exchange.

For me, this make sense;

hypersire

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Activity: 596

Merit: 500

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

I would stay away from referring to Nxt as "tokens" as it is similar to Ripple's "Postage Stamp" reference (i.e. implying that it isn't really a currency in itself).

bitcoinpaul

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 07:20:29 AM

I wouldn't pay much attention to BCNext's plans.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

@Come-from-Beyond, I am not sure if I understand this right. I see to possible interpretations:

1st:
BCnext doesn't want the price of nxt to rise (i find this unlogical because even if we issue coins backed by Nxt, the value of Nxt will still rise even if we issue more and more of them. The value of those coins will not rise.

2nd:
BCnext means that we shouldn't just hold Nxts and wait until their price rises, but rather we should make services and develop businesses on top of Nxt in order to support Nxt and consequently it's price will grow.

Or neither of them? Sorry, i wish i didn't care about price, but i do, if it rises i would be able to start a business connected with nxt, work from home and don't see much people, be part of the revolution and see how banks' revenue is crashing. I hope this doesnt sound too bad.

BCNext created a platform to build economy on. We use NXT as coins but BCNext planned that "money" will be built on top of Nxt core. Anyway it doesn't really matter what he wants, Nxt will evolve the way the community wants it to evolve. I wouldn't pay much attention to BCNext's plans.

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 07:04:54 AM

2nd:
BCnext means that we shouldn't just hold Nxts and wait until their price rises, but rather we should make services and develop businesses on top of Nxt in order to support Nxt and consequently it's price will grow.

It is not about the price. It is about a complete ecosystem that supports NXT just because it build upon it.

Isildur23

full member

Activity: 178

Merit: 100

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

@Come-from-Beyond, I am not sure if I understand this right. I see to possible interpretations:

1st:
BCnext doesn't want the price of nxt to rise (i find this unlogical because even if we issue coins backed by Nxt, the value of Nxt will still rise even if we issue more and more of them. The value of those coins will not rise.

2nd:
BCnext means that we shouldn't just hold Nxts and wait until their price rises, but rather we should make services and develop businesses on top of Nxt in order to support Nxt and consequently it's price will grow.

Or neither of them? Sorry, i wish i didn't care about price, but i do, if it rises i would be able to start a business connected with nxt, work from home and don't see much people, be part of the revolution and see how banks' revenue is crashing. I hope this doesnt sound too bad.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:40:43 AM

Lets discuss after a month.

No worries - am sure we'll see some interesting ideas coming out once the AE is live.

I guess I am just a little more skeptical than most about its benefits other than removing the reliance upon 3rd party servers/DBs to store information (which in itself of course is a very clear benefit).

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

Well, that is interesting. I would like really like it because it seems keeping NXT running because of keeping an actual business running focuses more on the actual value being created other than on NXT itself.

So, yes. I would like it with low fees to incent everybody to stabilize the network and preventing big businesses from soley controlling NXT.

Am I right, that the only technical change we strive to is lowering the fees?

Topic: Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 10. (Read 15655 times)