Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 9.

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: ZeroTheGreat on February 10, 2014, 10:39:57 AM

Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 08:57:45 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:30:36 AM

Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 08:28:40 AM

But it is not fair!

What r u talking about? Nxt offers the most fair way.

It's more fair if we pay the transaction fees directly to server operators.

Do u think there'll be better security if forgers'll get nothing for their job? I don't think so. There'd be forgers competition for fees and best possible decision to secure network (protected public node with wide bandwidth and skilled operator cost some resourses).

Remember, forging - way to secure system. Only then, may be, business itself.

Exactly. Leave forging the way it is. Competition is good.

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: ZeroTheGreat on February 10, 2014, 10:31:10 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:56:28 AM

Quote from: 2Kool4Skewl on February 10, 2014, 05:33:10 AM

I can say I'm issuing a fiat currency backed by gold and sell the fiat currency on Nxt's AE, but who is going to make sure that I have the gold to back the fiat currency?

Nxt could have a special kind of asset backed by fixed amount of NXT.

Doesn't matter, it's centralized decision (to provide NXT <--->, say, gold), so it can't cover whole field of risks completely (gold's holder can be robbed, can cheat and so on). Why backup so needed for minds? Money better serve its pupose with free flow, w/o any backup. And decentralized money better than centralized.

I agree. NXT's external value is not relevant. It's internal value (the value of the goods and services relying on NXT) will be the reason for sustaining it.

ZeroTheGreat

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 08:57:45 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:30:36 AM

Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 08:28:40 AM

But it is not fair!

What r u talking about? Nxt offers the most fair way.

It's more fair if we pay the transaction fees directly to server operators.

Do u think there'll be better security if forgers'll get nothing for their job? I don't think so. There'd be forgers competition for fees and best possible decision to secure network (protected public node with wide bandwidth and skilled operator cost some resourses).

Remember, forging - way to secure system. Only then, may be, business itself.

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: ZeroTheGreat on February 10, 2014, 10:34:04 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 06:33:27 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 06:31:26 AM

So the only problem I have now is, that I don't see any news with his 2nd plan. Anyone, please?

Nothing really new.

How "removing" pure forgers going to be provided?

As I understand it, it arises as a result from low fees. A very low incentive to forge.

ZeroTheGreat

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 06:33:27 AM

Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 06:31:26 AM

So the only problem I have now is, that I don't see any news with his 2nd plan. Anyone, please?

Nothing really new.

How "removing" pure forgers going to be provided?

Ola

sr. member

Activity: 311

Merit: 250

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 07:20:29 AM

Quote from: Isildur23 on February 10, 2014, 07:04:54 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

@Come-from-Beyond, I am not sure if I understand this right. I see to possible interpretations:

1st:
BCnext doesn't want the price of nxt to rise (i find this unlogical because even if we issue coins backed by Nxt, the value of Nxt will still rise even if we issue more and more of them. The value of those coins will not rise.

2nd:
BCnext means that we shouldn't just hold Nxts and wait until their price rises, but rather we should make services and develop businesses on top of Nxt in order to support Nxt and consequently it's price will grow.

Or neither of them? Sorry, i wish i didn't care about price, but i do, if it rises i would be able to start a business connected with nxt, work from home and don't see much people, be part of the revolution and see how banks' revenue is crashing. I hope this doesnt sound too bad.

BCNext created a platform to build economy on. We use NXT as coins but BCNext planned that "money" will be built on top of Nxt core. Anyway it doesn't really matter what he wants, Nxt will evolve the way the community wants it to evolve. I wouldn't pay much attention to BCNext's plans.

I remember a quote from him through you...: "never trust anyone especially with a name like bcnext" or something along those lines...

pandaisftw

full member

Activity: 224

Merit: 100

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 08:47:17 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:44:06 AM

Maybe non-critical ones?

And this is something that makes me wonder about the value of the AE. If we aren't going to trust it for "time-critical" trades (which would be pretty much *all* trades if you are a day trader) then what exactly are these *important* but non-time critical trades that it is needed for?

(some concrete examples would be very helpful here)

I'm curious, how does the AE interact with instant transactions? With instant transactions, you could theoretically have semi-HFT (not as fast as off-chain... but pretty fast)?

I also assume that by instant transactions, this actually means instant confirmations (up to a certain point)? Say you can predict 5 blocks in the future with 99.99% accuracy, so if you perform an instant transaction from your special account, you would get an instant 5 confirmations. Even if a single rogue forger decides not to include you, you will still have 4 confirmations.

Or am I getting this completely wrong, c-f-b? I know you explained this somewhere before, but I'll be honest, I did not understand it Grin

ZeroTheGreat

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:56:28 AM

Quote from: 2Kool4Skewl on February 10, 2014, 05:33:10 AM

I can say I'm issuing a fiat currency backed by gold and sell the fiat currency on Nxt's AE, but who is going to make sure that I have the gold to back the fiat currency?

Nxt could have a special kind of asset backed by fixed amount of NXT.

Doesn't matter, it's centralized decision (to provide NXT <--->, say, gold), so it can't cover whole field of risks completely (gold's holder can be robbed, can cheat and so on). Why backup so needed for minds? Money better serve its pupose with free flow, w/o any backup. And decentralized money better than centralized.

Ola

sr. member

Activity: 311

Merit: 250

Quote from: 2Kool4Skewl on February 10, 2014, 05:06:18 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 04:51:14 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:45:52 AM

BCNext doesn't propose to change 1B limit, he is even against it coz this would break forging. His idea is similar to issuance of eDollars on Asset Exchange.

Oh - I thought the purpose of the Asset Exchange was always going to be for such things. At the end of the day I think that the AE just brings the Nxt functionality closer to Ripple (which may or may not be a good thing).

This was my thought too.

My same sentiment...

also

please do not try to increase the support to remove mining fees, at least not just yet...Mining makes more people run more nodes, no matter their intent...it secures the network unless you already have Advanced DDoS Protection: Project Kharon implemented and ready to be activated

do not remove mining
do not increase nxt supply....asset exchange token will peg a stable value from people who can verifiably back tokens with real fiat
transaction cancellation is just ridiculous...I hope bcnext is ok

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:59:46 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 05:58:16 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:56:28 AM

Nxt could have a special kind of asset backed by fixed amount of NXT.

But if we aren't supposed to "trade NXT" then that wouldn't have any value then would it?

The point is that we are NOT supposed to do anything, it's up to the community how to develop Nxt further.

I think every everyone in the community wants nxt to be able to be traded MYSELF INCLUDED whats going on with bcnext? Huh

?? why even suggest this? Huh

or is this another one of his social experiments to make sure he is not seen as Messiah and ensure the functionality of the community is decentralized??? if not i think something serious is going on with him!!!!

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 04:23:28 AM

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.

I believe the value of NXT cannot be determined by NXT itself. I would call it external value to stress that issue. If that holds true, a dynamic change in NXT supply might not be possible.

What the best indicators for NXT's external value? MtGox's, BTER's value is not trustworthy. How to determine it then?

FWIW, I could very well live with a constant number of NXT and a slow increase or decrease of its external value.

Another issue, I am concerned with is how to distribute these new NXTs. What mechanism would be choose there?

EDIT: When reading https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/transparent-mining-or-what-makes-nxt-a-2nd-generation-currency-364218 one recognizes: "[...] The 2nd scenario can't be applied to Nxt, coz no NXTs exist outside the network. [...]" IMHO this is really important to understand why a constant number of NXTs is the best way.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:49:31 AM

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nxt-silver-bullion-gateway-gateway-updates-and-information-455861

Yes - I guess something along the lines of using AE to trade precious metals might be a better application (although not being a PM trader it doesn't appeal to me personally).

sepehr

sr. member

Activity: 399

Merit: 250

Cryptocurrency Evangelist

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:30:36 AM

Quote from: sepehr on February 10, 2014, 08:28:40 AM

But it is not fair!

What r u talking about? Nxt offers the most fair way.

It's more fair if we pay the transaction fees directly to server operators.

landomata

legendary

Activity: 2184

Merit: 1000

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 08:47:17 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:44:06 AM

Maybe non-critical ones?

And this is something that makes me wonder about the value of the AE. If we aren't going to trust it for "time-critical" trades (which would be pretty much *all* trades if you are a day trader) then what exactly are these *important* but non-time critical trades that it is needed for?

(some concrete examples would be very helpful here)

Time-critical is subjective....60 seconds can be time-critical....it all depends on the pace of the market.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 08:47:17 AM

And this is something that makes me wonder about the value of the AE. If we aren't going to trust it for "time-critical" trades (which would be pretty much *all* trades if you are a day trader) then what exactly are these *important* but non-time critical trades that it is needed for?

(some concrete examples would be very helpful here)

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nxt-silver-bullion-gateway-gateway-updates-and-information-455861

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:44:06 AM

Maybe non-critical ones?

And this is something that makes me wonder about the value of the AE. If we aren't going to trust it for "time-critical" trades (which would be pretty much *all* trades if you are a day trader) then what exactly are these *important* but non-time critical trades that it is needed for?

(some concrete examples would be very helpful here)

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 08:42:49 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:39:47 AM

Luckily Nxt can't provide HFT so we shouldn't worry much. Time critical trades will still be done off-chain.

Which then begs the question if all "time critical" trades are going to end up being off-chain (therefore centralised) what exactly is the huge benefit of even having the AE?

Maybe non-critical ones?

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:39:47 AM

Luckily Nxt can't provide HFT so we shouldn't worry much. Time critical trades will still be done off-chain.

Which then begs the question if all "time critical" trades are going to end up being off-chain (therefore centralised) what exactly is the huge benefit of even having the AE?

(sorry to be so negative about AE but I am still struggling to see why it "so great")

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 08:36:23 AM

You can;t just arbitrarily block inclusion into blocks...the only way is if someone one out bids you in tx fee....and if they do you can wait for the next block which can be only the next second.

I am pretty sure you can decide which txs you are going to include in your block - the fee is simply to encourage to include as many as you can but if you don't want to include one or more particular txs (and instead include others) then I don't think anything can stop you.

Of course TF does help and it is likely such txs would get included in a following block, but, if we are talking about "matching an order" then a forger could simply include their own tx in preference to another (meaning that you might have just "missed out" on your buy/sell to that forger even if your tx was actually broadcast *first*).

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 08:34:12 AM

Actually this is something that concerns me far more than the initial distribution or the PoS reward for forging.

If AE bid/ask tx's can be arbitrarily included or not in a block then I can see a lot of manipulation occurring in this part of the system (another reason that I am not really hooked on the whole AE thing).

This of course could be compounded by huge stake holders "colluding" to say hold back orders.

Luckily Nxt can't provide HFT so we shouldn't worry much. Time critical trades will still be done off-chain.

landomata

legendary

Activity: 2184

Merit: 1000

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 08:34:12 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 08:29:21 AM

I'd like to add that this "power" is very valuable. If u forge the next block u decide what orders to include into it. And this decision will change the market.

Actually this is something that concerns me far more than the initial distribution or the PoS reward for forging.

If AE bid/ask tx's can be arbitrarily included or not in a block then I can see a lot of manipulation occurring in this part of the system (another reason that I am not really hooked on the whole AE thing).

You can;t just arbitrarily block inclusion into blocks...the only way is if someone one out bids you in tx fee....and if they do you can wait for the next block which can be only the next second.

or am I missing something.

Topic: Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 9. (Read 15635 times)