Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 12.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 06:37:00 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:23:28 AM

NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt.

What would be the consequences for Nxt dev?

None. It's just another interpretation of the reality. Just a question of terminology.

CIYAM

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 06:54:25 AM

Hm, looks like this is a problem with my English. BCNext's idea is that NXTs shouldn't be used as mean of exchange.

Ouch - so we should instead exchange things that are just IOU's in place of something that actually at least has scarcity.

Although maybe Ripple screwed up by trying to make too much out of Ripples I think that unless you have atomic cross-chain transaction support so you can trade something of *real* value (such as BTC or LTC) then this would be a disaster.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: 2Kool4Skewl on February 10, 2014, 06:33:10 AM

I can say I'm issuing a fiat currency backed by gold and sell the fiat currency on Nxt's AE, but who is going to make sure that I have the gold to back the fiat currency?

Nxt could have a special kind of asset backed by fixed amount of NXT.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 06:19:10 AM

edit: Or is this a terminology problem, because 'gold coins' are no coins?

Hm, looks like this is a problem with my English. BCNext's idea is that NXTs shouldn't be used as mean of exchange.

2Kool4Skewl

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 06:49:48 AM

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:46:30 AM

FORGET IOU....I'm not even talking about IOU's.

You are - but let's look at what you say "next" (pun intended).

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:46:30 AM

Example: NXTMONEY is pegged at 1 USD....so everyone who has or wants to receive NXTMONEY knows that it is worth 1 USD, 1 YEN, 1 CNY for example locally in his country.

This is the problem - *how* is it *pegged*?

It can only be so if some individual or group is "guaranteeing" to accept it for 1 USD (or whatever) but if that person/group decides that they are not worth it (for whatever reason) then your *pegging* has just failed and in fact the coins are worth ZERO.

This is why they are not *actual* USDs (or whatever) - they are actually IOUs - this is EXACTLY how Ripple works.

+1

Pouncer

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MtGox: Bitcoin Transaction Malleability bug

https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20140210.html
BTC Crash!

"Note that this will also affect any other crypto-currency using the same transaction scheme as Bitcoin."
NXT not affected!!

pandaisftw

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:23:28 AM

Nxt mining uses a deterministic lottery that grants right to mine next blocks. Time of a next block is determined by the time of the previous block and by the base target. The base target is a part of Bitcoin legacy that should be left behind, it doesn't make sense to wait when next block is mined coz we already know who will do it. And we can mine blocks at a fixed rate, for example, every 60000 ms (exactly 1 min). When Internet becomes faster we will switch to a smaller gap between blocks (10 seconds, for example).

Awesome.

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:23:28 AM

Mining reward is another obsolete part. True reward for supporting Nxt network comes from services that use Nxt. Someone owns a currency exchange and mine blocks to keep his business running. Another one owns a shop and mine blocks to keep his business running. The 3rd person owns a software company that develops programs for Nxt-based services and mine blocks to keep his business running. Selfish miners (those who mine only to earn fees) should be "removed" from the system, they r not interested in success of Nxt and only want to cash-out. If a clone appears such the people will likely jump to another ship, they add very little value to Nxt. All this doesn't mean that we should get rid of fees completely, we still need them as a countermeasure against spamming.

I like this. I can't believe I didn't realize the significance of this before, but forging makes 100% more sense now. People will want to forge because a more secure network = more business for them = more profit. It encourages innovation on-top of the platform, rather than stagnating the cryptocurrency movement with 1000's of alts. Power is removed from centralized PoW pools who don't care about network health (ahem, DiscusFish) and instead transfers that power to people who actually need the platform to run smoothly and healthily as possible.

Hacer88

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Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:46:30 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:31:38 AM

This would allow us to have a FIXED value e-currency which we can use for micro payments.

I won't be fixed if the issuer suddenly stops redeeming their IOU's and in if fact such IOU's will quickly become worth *nothing* - as you said the Asset can be anything including "Pirate Ponzi Coins".

FORGET IOU....I'm not even talking about IOU's.

Example: NXTMONEY is pegged at 1 USD....so everyone who has or wants to receive NXTMONEY knows that it is worth 1 USD, 1 YEN, 1 CNY for example locally in his country.

Now lets say a merchant sells some cloths for NXTMONEY he now have NXTMONEY in his account....he can then go online and buy from a supplier who accepts NXTMONEY...and so on.

The problem NOW is that NXT or BITCOIN price is always FLUCTUATING....so they don;t lend themselves to simple commerce at the corner store.

Solution of retailers about the fluctuations;

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57618433-1/real-world-price-tag-tracks-shifting-bitcoin-exchange-rate/

CIYAM

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Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:46:30 AM

FORGET IOU....I'm not even talking about IOU's.

You are - but let's look at what you say "next" (pun intended).

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:46:30 AM

Example: NXTMONEY is pegged at 1 USD....so everyone who has or wants to receive NXTMONEY knows that it is worth 1 USD, 1 YEN, 1 CNY for example locally in his country.

This is the problem - *how* is it *pegged*?

It can only be so if some individual or group is "guaranteeing" to accept it for 1 USD (or whatever) but if that person/group decides that they are not worth it (for whatever reason - maybe they don't have any USD left) then your *pegging* has just failed and in fact the coins are worth ZERO.

This is why they are not *actual* USDs (or whatever) - they are actually IOUs - this is EXACTLY how Ripple works.

landomata

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 06:35:16 AM

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:31:38 AM

This would allow us to have a FIXED value e-currency which we can use for micro payments.

I won't be fixed if the issuer suddenly stops redeeming their IOU's and in if fact such IOU's will quickly become worth *nothing* - as you said the Asset can be anything including "Pirate Ponzi Coins".

FORGET IOU....I'm not even talking about IOU's.

Example: NXTMONEY is pegged at 1 USD....so everyone who has or wants to receive NXTMONEY knows that it is worth 1 USD, 1 YEN, 1 CNY for example locally in his country.

Now lets say a merchant sells some cloths for NXTMONEY he now have NXTMONEY in his account....he can then go online and buy from a supplier who accepts NXTMONEY...and so on.

The problem NOW is that NXT or BITCOIN price is always FLUCTUATING....so they don;t lend themselves to simple commerce at the corner store.

bitcoinpaul

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:23:28 AM

NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt.

What would be the consequences for Nxt dev?

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: landomata on February 10, 2014, 06:31:38 AM

This would allow us to have a FIXED value e-currency which we can use for micro payments.

It won't be fixed at all if the issuer suddenly stops redeeming their IOU's and in if fact such IOU's will quickly become worth *nothing* - as you said the Asset can be anything including "Pirate Ponzi Coins".

Understand that just calling something NXTUSD does not at all make it worth 1 USD - it's no different to Mt. Gox USD amounts (they have clearly been valued at less than *real* USD amounts for a long time).

landomata

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Quote from: salsacz on February 10, 2014, 06:32:28 AM

Nxt is like gold. But you can create gold roman coins, gold watches or teeth Cheesy

So you will always need gold (Nxt)

all the above 3 gold examples carry value.

2Kool4Skewl

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 06:26:35 AM

I don't see how any AE is going to really ever be properly "backed" by anything - you just end up with "centralised" Gateways a la Ripple or you end up with disasters like GLBSE.

Why do people think AE is so important when the only "decentralised" part is the "trading between IOU's and NXT" (anything else becomes reduced to having to "trust" whoever to actually respect the IOU)?

Exactly.

I can say I'm issuing a fiat currency backed by gold and sell the fiat currency on Nxt's AE, but who is going to make sure that I have the gold to back the fiat currency?

salsacz

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Nxt is like gold. But you can create gold roman coins, gold watches or teeth Cheesy

So you will always need gold (Nxt)

landomata

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 06:26:35 AM

I don't see how any AE is going to really ever be properly "backed" by anything - you just end up with "centralised" Gateways a la Ripple or you end up with disasters like GLBSE.

Why do people think AE is so important when the only "decentralised" part is the "trading between IOU's and NXT" (anything else becomes reduced to having to "trust" whoever to actually respect the IOU)?

I;m sorry but any ASSET can be created in AE.....what is Bitcoin backed by? or the United States Dollar?

This would allow us to have a FIXED value e-currency which we can use for micro payments.

@ 10,000 TPS and above speeds.

CIYAM

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I don't see how any AE is going to really ever be properly "backed" by anything - you just end up with "centralised" Gateways a la Ripple or you end up with disasters like GLBSE.

Why do people think AE is so important when the only "decentralised" part is the "trading between IOU's and NXT" (anything else becomes reduced to having to "trust" whoever to actually respect the IOU)?

TwinWinNerD

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Quote from: bitcoinpaul on February 10, 2014, 06:19:10 AM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 05:51:14 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:45:52 AM

BCNext doesn't propose to change 1B limit, he is even against it coz this would break forging. His idea is similar to issuance of eDollars on Asset Exchange.

Oh - I thought the purpose of the Asset Exchange was always going to be for such things. At the end of the day I think that the AE just brings the Nxt functionality closer to Ripple (which may or may not be a good thing).

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:23:28 AM

NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins.

I have a problem to understand where the difference is now

- CfB always said there should be coins on top of Nxt
- Now BCNext says there should be coins on top of Nxt and this should be the sole purpose of Nxt. Wrong?
- Since you need NXT for this coins, NXT will automatically gets evaluated (high) and BCNext idea of using NXT as coins cannot become real because NXT will get traded like gold coins, e.g. eDollars backed by NXT, dollars (long time ago) backed by gold. Wrong?

@the last part:

He want's coins backed by gold/silver. Not backed by NXT. How would that even work, a coin backed by NXT is basically NXT in itself^^

bitcoinpaul

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 05:51:14 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:45:52 AM

BCNext doesn't propose to change 1B limit, he is even against it coz this would break forging. His idea is similar to issuance of eDollars on Asset Exchange.

Oh - I thought the purpose of the Asset Exchange was always going to be for such things. At the end of the day I think that the AE just brings the Nxt functionality closer to Ripple (which may or may not be a good thing).

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:23:28 AM

NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins.

I have a problem to understand where the difference is now

- CfB always said there should be coins on top of Nxt
- Now BCNext says there should be coins on top of Nxt and this should be the sole purpose of Nxt.

Since you need NXT for this coins, NXT will automatically gets evaluated (high) and BCNext idea of using NXT as coins cannot become real because NXT will get traded like gold coins, e.g. eDollars backed by NXT, dollars (long time ago) backed by gold. Wrong?

edit: Or is this a terminology problem, because 'gold coins' are no coins?

2Kool4Skewl

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 10, 2014, 05:51:14 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on February 10, 2014, 05:45:52 AM

BCNext doesn't propose to change 1B limit, he is even against it coz this would break forging. His idea is similar to issuance of eDollars on Asset Exchange.

Oh - I thought the purpose of the Asset Exchange was always going to be for such things. At the end of the day I think that the AE just brings the Nxt functionality closer to Ripple (which may or may not be a good thing).

This was my thought too.

Topic: Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 12. (Read 15616 times)