Topic: Transparent mining 2, or What part of Legacy should be left behind - page 2. (Read 15655 times)

And now, i quoted it. Shit...

Sure, not a bad idea, but not need to put this into protocol. Just use existing methods for inheritance.

What do you think of the idea of the last will of an account?

The "problem" with using NXT as money is that there are only 1 billion of them. Any fiat is in the trillions. So, the best way is to create a NXT Asset, each up to 1 billion. You can make each of these represent whatever you want. Server CPU hours for grid computing, actual fiat with 1:1 conversion, turtles, etc.

NXT will become the reserve currency of both crypto and post-fiat economies. What that means is that everything will have its price denominated in NXT. Since there is a fixed and finite amount of NXT, it will act like gold (that cant be mined anymore). As the reference currency, there are a nearly infinite number of price points that solve the equation of relative pricing of all the assets against each other. What the exact price will end up is really more of a function of the total GDP of the NXT economy. The more value that is represented by all the NXT Assets, the more each NXT will be worth.

Inflation cannot happen with NXT, that is why it is appropriate for it to be the reserve currency. As the NXT GDP rises, even .01 or .0001 NXT fee per transaction will more than offset any costs for running a server if you have any amount of NXT. I would imagine that any business that is basing its model on NXT would make sure it stocked up on NXT before announcing its services that will in turn boost the value of NXT, especially if it is a killer app.

All of the Asset issuance fees, AM and payment fees recirculate with 100% efficiency. It is really quite an amazing system design.

My advice is stock up on NXT. Figure out what your killer app is. Figure out how to parcel it into an NXT asset. Complete killer app, issue assets, make money. All while your initial investment in NXT is growing in value.
Imagine thousands of businesses doing this.

James

Excellent way of putting it.. ok I'm convinced there is something to the idea... however, we do need to come up with something, and I'm thinking distributed computing will be our killer app, that will allow us to feed the network on a more consistent basis.  We might need a programming language specifically tailored to our purposes.

Ok.. interesting..  going to have to think about the implications of this a little bit.. definitely a very different direction than I would've taken it.

What do you think about using Nxt as money however?  I kind of think that we can still use the units of Nxt as money, why build other types of money on top of Nxt?  For that matter if Nxt won't be used as the currency part of the equation.. how does that affect it's value?

Personally, I prefer a deflationary currency and I don't think that it would cause problems, it only causing problems if it's a debt based currency instead of one backed by something and the government tries to artificially introduce inflation.

It's not too late to delete that post (or maybe it is now that I've quoted it).

Compuserve, had my first mail address with them!

I do remember CompuServe (and even used it) and just like the initial MSN (when they were trying to kill the internet with their binary protocols) it died.

For sure the forging fees are not going to make people rich but at the same time we do need to ensure that the network is looked after so I think that the fees should always at least make it viable to make a small amount of money forging as that is a useful benefit for the Nxt system.

If you just stopped trying to make money with the protocol level of NXT, you will make a ton of money. NXT is designed exactly for people like you to come up with businesses on top of NXT.

Imagine how far the internet would have gone if everytime you used the IP protocol, you were charged a percentage fee. Would the Internet be anything like it is today? Every email, every webpage, every bittorrent, all would have incurred fees. It would have made 99% of the Internet nonviable.

forging is only meant as a transitory carrot. It was similar enough to mining that NXT got enough critical mass. It has served its purpose, it is time for it to go away. it will be 0.1 for a while and then 0.01 and maybe it stays there. The only purpose for minimum fees are to prevent spam. Notice issuing an asset costs 1000NXT. What are the implications of that?

I think you want to make money. Imagine having a NXT based business. Would you rather have that business be on top of the Internet, or Compuserve?

James

P.S. If you dont know about compusurve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe, they had 90%+ of online business, but charged a per hour fee for online time. People said, Internet is much better.

It's tricky to build anything on top of Nxt right now such as the distributed computing, unless there was some way of getting into the source code. And that being said, we now have a bunch of clients, we'll get our own version of Bitpay soon enough.. maybe we can get ourselves onto the coinkite terminal (Check it out, I think this is awesome: https://coinkite.com/faq/terminal ) and if not.. well who's willing to bet me that you'll be able to pay with Nxt at more places within the next year than Bitcoin?  I'll willing to wager up to 10,000 Nxt.

Also I seriously I think that operating Nxt as a business is the way to say that we are actually backed by something, which I think is important.  We would have more inherent value because we would run the world's largest super computer, that would actually be usable, and then I also really feel like we should use Nxt as a currency because it is indeed backed by something solid people can believe in, specifically our products and services, rather encouraging people to use coins built on top of Nxt.

Ok.. well I hung onto 150k Nxt, mostly by accident due to them being stuck in transit from dgex.  Which did well overnight, I only sold about 50k.. I'll probably buy back in again. Looks like I got caught up in the panic sell.. I believe in cryptos but I could've seen that bug scaring some people away who didn't consider it as a possibly.

Besides a demurrage coin, one issue I was thinking of recently was the life-cycle of a NXT account.

Think of it like this:
in the real world there will be a father and a mother supporting their child; by feeding, by teaching etc. When somebody dies, the wealth he acquired over time will be distributed either to the community or to his children. This is how most humans get their initial wealth (as small as it can be) to start with. Family members hodl the wealth of the family.

0) What do you think of heredity? Is it legacy as well? Or can this concept being transferred to NXT/crypotcurrencies?

1) Do we want to have the concept of heredity in NXT?
2) If yes, how?
3) If no, then maybe in a subcoin of NXT?
4) If still no, how to prevent it?
5) If yes, how?

We need fees in order to prevent spamming.

no, and i was surprised as well.  but I dont think it will happen as there doesnt appear to be a mass of orgs out there right now rushing in trying to build services on top of NXT like BCNext envisioned.  not to say that it couldnt happen in the future, but to then remove fees altogether would require a consensus that I do not believe it achievable - by the point that there are enough orgs out there that could sustain forging for free per BCNext's plan, the distribution of NXT will surely be at the point to make it impossible.

Slight misunderstanding. We need fees anyway. So, forgers get them.

Maybe I overreacted a little bit but are we seriously not going to pay the forger's anything? or did I misread that?

I'm perfectly ok having a very small transaction fee, even 0.01Nxt.. IF we try to implement other services, such as the arbitrary messaging, alias registration, distibuted computing, distibuted storage, etc. that would pay the person for their computing time and compensate.  Another idea I really like would be if we could implement project Kharon to the extent where we allow other people to protect their websites using our software, we could easily charge $300 per month per customer and then pay back the forgers using that money.. you could probably pay them a couple bucks per day to maintain the network. 

Also regarding profitably, Nxt transaction fees could even be profitable at approximately 0.05% when we reach bit coins size, so to me it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to charge a small transaction fee..  I mean that is tiny compared to Visa's 2.5%, we are talking $0.5 to send $1000 and we could still be profitable at that level.

No, I love Nxt's code.. but I don't like this direction it's heading if as I understand it, we're going in more of a communist direction of everyone works for free and pays for forging machines to support this but doesn't get compensated for doing it.  I mean it's not like we're talking a lot of money for the people propping up the network but I feel pretty strongly that they should be compensated for it.

Also, I misunderstood this pointed forging apparently.. I thought that people were going to be able to lease their forging power and essentially the people doing the actual forging would pay them say 80% of the money made using their forging power.  But that doesn't sound like what this leased forging power is all about, right?

What do you guys think about the idea of charging for our extra services and essentially using them to subsidize the forgers for handling transactions?  Or do you guys agree that forging machines should be run at a loss by the companies who rely most on Nxt?

How are we going to support distributed computing, distributed storage, etc. in that way?  I mean look at Bitcoin, some people are calling it as big as the 500 biggest supercomputers combined.. we have that same potential to have a huge number of computers on the network and supporting it, and during the majority of the time when they are not processing for Nxt transactions, we pay them to be online and running the distributed computer. If we can pay the forgers enough to make it worth their time, we could easily be the world's largest supercomputer.

Also, I see those services as adding that inheritant value to Nxt that Bitcoin doesn't have, not only do we have the coin, Nxt, but it's essentially a piece of stock in a company that has methods of making money and paying you back for owning those Nxt in the form of essentially dividends.  This is why I do believe that Nxt should indeed be the currency itself, it's backed by something, specifically computing power, unlike all the rest of these cryptos.

Anyway that's my vision, if Nxt doesn't want to go that direction as this is sounding, I seriously might start my own coin.

One more point, deflation is largely a myth:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2013/08/11/now-for-the-truth-the-story-of-japans-lost-decades-is-the-worlds-most-absurd-media-myth/
http://archive.mises.org/8778/austrians-on-deflation/

how is it possible that someone has the ability to do all the work you've just described, yet get stuck in short-term tunnel vision where you cannot see the long-term possibilities of using NXT as the infrastructure for a decentralized economy?  sounds like you just wanted to see NXT as just another cryptocurrency that just happened to have different code.

Good luck with buying Nxt back with the price 0,5$.

bye

Here is my vision of Nxt:

Every forgers runs a client and tries to make money off of running it.  We run it like a company and try to make ourselves as big and stable as possible.

The programming team makes applications such as the messaging application, the alias registration, etc.  The more Nxt you own, the more it'd be like having stock in our company and you'd be rewarded for forging with enough Nxt to make money doing it. This would encourage a large base of users who would each be making an average of $1 per day just for leaving their computers running.  Users would be encouraged to hoard coins because they know that the more coins they own, the more they'd make off of forging not to mention it being an investment in our company and the future of our coin.

This does not sound at all like that and this is not the Nxt I invested in.. sorry guys you just lost me, think I'm going to compete with you guys instead.. unless enough of the community is in favor of trying to make a profit instead of going this direction?

I'm one of those people BTCNext saw jumping ship, I just sold all my Nxt and BTC too since it seems to be a bubble popping.. and I'm new to this, I haven't been around long and I don't have money I can afford to lose, I'll buy back in when it appears to have bottomed out.  Anyone else who wants to make some money.. please send me a PM. I'm going to need some help.  I've spent every free minute of the last month analyzing how the Nxt backbone and idea allows us to make a very profitable coin.  NEM also seems to be heading that direction. I've got 13 pages of a business plan written up and I haven't finished just yet. I was hoping to convince Nxt to go that direction but this topic and many of the replies to it have me worried that it is not heading in that direction.  Got big plans for my vision of this coin.

I loved Nxt.. if you guys would prefer to try to make Nxt profitable, count me in but with this vision.. later guys, I see this crashing as people start turning off their forging machines left and right and others realize that they won't make much money off of this but I truly wish you all the best!  Maybe I'll hold onto 1000 Nxt because I truly did love this coin.

I ask somebody how probably has no idea of cryptocurrencies.

I ask him: imagine there is a currency where you have pay for having money.
He reponded: ah, demurrage.
I ask further: what could somebody encourage to buy such money?
He basically said:
1) if my purchasing power in that system increases more than the demurrage reduces my money
2) if there is some [service] I really want or if I really want to offer a [service] there because when I do not somebody else will and I will lose profit