Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 32549.

samson

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Quote from: Richy_T on July 23, 2013, 05:40:11 PM

US laws can apply wherever the US decides they will (barring constitutional restriction). What they may not have is the ability to enforce those laws depending on treaties and extradition agreements. And you'd better be careful about setting foot on American soil ever again.

c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._ElcomSoft_and_Sklyarov

I wasn't aware of the ElcomSoft / Dmitry Sklyarov case - interesting stuff. They're a well known software company in the 'computer forensics' industry.

ChartBuddy

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crumbs

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Quote from: samson on July 23, 2013, 05:53:21 PM

Quote from: prof7bit on July 23, 2013, 05:38:40 PM

Quote from: crumbs on July 23, 2013, 05:30:53 PM

What do you mean by "business itself is in US"? What part of US was Liberty Reserve in?

Proably the US did something illegal. The USA has no jurisdiction outside of its own territory and US laws only apply within its own borders.

LOL, try telling that to Viktor Bout

A Russian who was entrapped by the FBI in Thailand and suddenly he finds himself in prison in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout
http://www.victorbout.com/

Currently doing 25 years in NY.

+1
The point is, US makes shit happen given enough interest. Good to have contingency plans.

samson

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Quote from: prof7bit on July 23, 2013, 05:38:40 PM

Quote from: crumbs on July 23, 2013, 05:30:53 PM

What do you mean by "business itself is in US"? What part of US was Liberty Reserve in?

Proably the US did something illegal. The USA has no jurisdiction outside of its own territory and US laws only apply within its own borders.

LOL, try telling that to Viktor Bout

A Russian who was entrapped by the FBI in Thailand and suddenly he finds himself in prison in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout
http://www.victorbout.com/

Currently doing 25 years in NY.

Richy_T

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Quote from: prof7bit on July 23, 2013, 05:33:17 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on July 23, 2013, 05:25:48 PM

srsly, how would they go about btc-e? Bribe a Russian official?

Just explan to Putin that USA has jurisdiction over Russian territory. I'm sure Putin will agree with this.

US laws can apply wherever the US decides they will (barring constitutional restriction). What they may not have is the ability to enforce those laws depending on treaties and extradition agreements. And you'd better be careful about setting foot on American soil ever again.

c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._ElcomSoft_and_Sklyarov

prof7bit

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https://youengine.io/

Quote from: crumbs on July 23, 2013, 05:30:53 PM

What do you mean by "business itself is in US"? What part of US was Liberty Reserve in?

Proably the US did something illegal. The USA has no jurisdiction outside of its own territory and US laws only apply within its own borders.

prof7bit

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https://youengine.io/

Quote from: ElectricMucus on July 23, 2013, 05:25:48 PM

srsly, how would they go about btc-e? Bribe a Russian official?

Just explan to Putin that USA has jurisdiction over Russian territory. I'm sure Putin will agree with this.

crumbs

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Quote from: prof7bit on July 23, 2013, 05:27:20 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

LOL@everyone moving coins to Bitsamp. Keeping money on any exchange not registered, or seeking registration, with Fincen is idiotic at this point. Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there.

Only if the business itself is in the US because US laws do not apply anywhere outside the US.

What do you mean by "business itself is in US"? What part of US was Liberty Reserve in?

Tzupy

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I agree that the US government can strongarm MtGox (Japan) and Bitstamp (UK), because those countries are close allies and may comply with US demands.
About BTC-E, I'm not sure what the US government can do, maybe hire some rackets to put a bomb in their server room (just a hypothesis)?

prof7bit

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Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

LOL@everyone moving coins to Bitsamp. Keeping money on any exchange not registered, or seeking registration, with Fincen is idiotic at this point. Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there.

Only if the business itself is in the US because US laws do not apply anywhere outside the US.

Spekulatius

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Quote from: Tzupy on July 23, 2013, 04:46:30 PM

You are mistaken, Bitstamp only has to abide by the laws of the country it is registered in.
Which is UK for Bitstamp itself, but Slovenia for their bank.
It's the US citizens that also have to abide by those laws when doing business with Bitstamp.

If US customers are specifically targeted by Bitstamp, it clearly is subject to US regulation (from an US point of view). Same thing if it only did business with US customers but was completely kept in Slovenian or something, thus not specifically targeting US citizens, US laws would still apply.

The only question is: "Can the US authorities excert their power over Bitstamp or not?". If Bitstamp has no legal representation in the US, it may not be liable to court orders or prosecution but may as well be shut down if the American authorities extend their influence across the Atlantic which is very narrow between the US and the UK, if you know what I mean.

This is how bitcoin-24.com got shut down btw. It targeted German customers but was incorporated in the UK as well. The banks didnt care.

ElectricMucus

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Marketing manager - GO MP

In communist Russia the exchange shuts down you!

srsly, how would they go about btc-e? Bribe a Russian official?

samson

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on July 23, 2013, 05:13:43 PM

Quote from: gizmoh on July 23, 2013, 05:10:15 PM

Quote from: Loozik on July 23, 2013, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there. Period.

Is it your arbitrary opinion?

This is how US Authorities can and did explain shutting down of an offshore business e.g Poker sites operating out of its borders but serving US citizens.

No they weren't operating from out of the US, they were trying to be sharky by operating from within the US and hosting the site somewhere else.

There's a shitstorm on the horizon and it's about to hit.

Now the SEC have 'come out' as investigating this and quoting this forum in their filings I'm pretty sure they will also go after the operators of other Bitcoin related security exchanges who offer securities for sale to US residents. It doesn't matter if they're fraudulent of now.

For example I've seen investment documents (Billion+ dollar funds) in the past from companies outside the US and US citizens who are not 'accredited investors' are specifically prohibited from participating. This is due to the SEC laws.

They will be coming for the GLBSE operator and anyone else who sells shares to US citizens.

This is bearish on all fronts.

ElectricMucus

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Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: gizmoh on July 23, 2013, 05:10:15 PM

Quote from: Loozik on July 23, 2013, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there. Period.

Is it your arbitrary opinion?

This is how US Authorities can and did explain shutting down of an offshore business e.g Poker sites operating out of its borders but serving US citizens.

No they weren't operating from out of the US, they were trying to be sharky by operating from within the US and hosting the site somewhere else.

gizmoh

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Quote from: Loozik on July 23, 2013, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there. Period.

Is it your arbitrary opinion?

This is how US Authorities can and did explain shutting down of an offshore business e.g Poker sites operating out of its borders but serving US citizens.

ChartBuddy

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Loozik

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Born to chew bubble gum and kick ass

Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there. Period.

Is it your arbitrary opinion?

Tzupy

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1094

You are mistaken, Bitstamp only has to abide by the laws of the country it is registered in.
Which is UK for Bitstamp itself, but Slovenia for their bank.
It's the US citizens that also have to abide by those laws when doing business with Bitstamp.

Walsoraj

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Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Ultranode

Quote from: ElectricMucus on July 23, 2013, 04:37:59 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on July 23, 2013, 04:29:41 PM

LOL@everyone moving coins to Bitsamp. Keeping money on any exchange not registered, or seeking registration, with Fincen is idiotic at this point. Any business intentionally or knowingly offering services to US citizens is subject to laws there. Period.

There might be an exception for a business when a very small, insignificant portion of its activities reach into US borders. But no way would Bitstamp fall into such an exception. I doubt any exchange would, considering the vast, vast majority of trading is by US citizens.

Think about it. If physically setting up shop on foreign land is sufficient to evade US laws, then why don't we see more foreign businesses selling dangerous products (exploding barbie dolls) or openly offering money laundering to US citizens? Laws and treaties. Dummies.

Bitstamp and BTCe going down by the end of the year, for sure. If you don't have your coins/fiat on Gox or CampBX, may as well just kiss them goodbye.

Cool story bro, tell it again.

NOU. if you question my flawless logic, then lay out your story for criticism.

Walsoraj

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Ultranode

If anyone doubts me, call a lawyer up and ask about how courts determine whether a foreign entity is subject to US jurisdiction. Hint: not having an account with a bank on US soils is insufficient to evade jurisdiction. Cheesy

You knowingly sell shit or offer services to US citizens, you gotta abide the laws. Very simple.

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