Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33476.

dexX7

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:35:52 AM

Quote from: Ultraviolet on May 18, 2013, 11:28:41 AM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:18:54 AM

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

It works on Bitfinex because there's a pool of USD and BTC that's lent on a P2P system in exchange for interest. USD interest is very high and BTC interest is very low.

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

~~What is a naked short?~~ Bitfinex is a great example, I at least like their concept, because it's actually "from the people, for the people" due to their P2P lending system. There are margin requirements, which by the way, could be one point the CFTC could regulate. (the requirements)

I'm not sure if I like it or not, because our overall goal should be a higher price, but I'm not sure, if my thought process isn't to shortsighted and this is an valid argument at all, because they have to buy back the coins when closing the position..

Anyway, you missed one importent point when it comes to money: where money can be made, there will always be people who try to exploit that. A current example would be the "true believers", who would never ever sell a Bitcoin, vs. the speculators, who trade the swings and are selling, buying lower etc.

Another thing to think about.. when we trade, we aren't actually transfering Bitcoins on the exchanges, but I assume, all Bitcoins are backed up by real Bitcoins.

I've read that the "real" finance does that at an even greater extent - many CFD (?) brokers simulate shorts etc. within their system, which results in a state, where traders play against the house and not against the market.

oroboras

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 10:35:51 AM

Well, that ought to keep Dr Evil off our backs for a while Tongue

ChartBuddy

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Abandon

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:56:51 AM

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on May 18, 2013, 11:54:33 AM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:35:52 AM

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Right now there are approximately 2200 coins lent out to short sellers and another 1800 available to borrow on Bitfinex, so around 500k USD at today's price. Not a massive sum, but enough to make shorting viable for traders on that platform.

You do have to keep assets on the exchange to cover a potential margin call, and no, there is no naked shorting. Technically, Regulation SHO prohibits naked shorting on U.S. stock exchanges too, not that it doesn't still happen.

Well, a 2000 BTC sale can for sure kill a rally (smaller one). I would think for shorting to really really matter, we would have to be talking in the 10's of thousands? Thoughts.

Thanks for the information by the way. We have to look at everything, even those things we don't like to see. Shocked

There's many other bitcoin brokerages that are coming out, that allow for shorting and leverage, I have seen at least three others.

Right now Bitfinex is in a closed loop with the other small exchanges, that do not have direct contact with Mt. Gox. Bitfinex not any more for now. Bitfinex currently trades only with itself and Bitstamp.

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on May 18, 2013, 11:54:33 AM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:35:52 AM

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Right now there are approximately 2200 coins lent out to short sellers and another 1800 available to borrow on Bitfinex, so around 500k USD at today's price. Not a massive sum, but enough to make shorting viable for traders on that platform.

You do have to keep assets on the exchange to cover a potential margin call, and no, there is no naked shorting. Technically, Regulation SHO prohibits naked shorting on U.S. stock exchanges too, not that it doesn't still happen.

Well, a 2000 BTC sale can for sure kill a rally (smaller one). I would think for shorting to really really matter, we would have to be talking in the 10's of thousands? Thoughts.

Thanks for the information by the way. We have to look at everything, even those things we don't like to see. Shocked

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Interesting - First wall I see is around 2k at $130...

Pale Phoenix

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:35:52 AM

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Right now there are approximately 2200 coins lent out to short sellers and another 1800 available to borrow on Bitfinex, so around 500k USD at today's price. Not a massive sum, but enough to make shorting viable for traders on that platform.

You do have to keep assets on the exchange to cover a potential margin call, and no, there is no naked shorting. Technically, Regulation SHO prohibits naked shorting on U.S. stock exchanges too, not that it doesn't still happen.

dexX7

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Quote from: Dumbastronaut on May 18, 2013, 10:48:02 AM

Anyone else see a textbook head and shoulders formation? We're crossing thd neckline right now :/

Which timeframe? Call the points please.

Its About Sharing

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Antifragile

Quote from: Ultraviolet on May 18, 2013, 11:28:41 AM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:18:54 AM

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

It works on Bitfinex because there's a pool of USD and BTC that's lent on a P2P system in exchange for interest. USD interest is very high and BTC interest is very low.

I guess some investors would do that, but die hard BTC'ers would NEVER EVER allow their coins to be used for such purposes. In the grand scheme of things it is probably quite small at that site and I can only hope it stays that way. Again, due to the nature of the network, you are not going to see naked shorts. And, due to most keeping larger amounts of coins offline, you just won't get the short volume needed to manipulate.

Ultraviolet

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 11:18:54 AM

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

It works on Bitfinex because there's a pool of USD and BTC that's lent on a P2P system in exchange for interest. USD interest is very high and BTC interest is very low.

Its About Sharing

legendary

Activity: 1442

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Antifragile

Quote from: S3052 on May 18, 2013, 10:58:39 AM

Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 10:35:51 AM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 08:17:22 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:12:29 AM

This entire line of conversation is a stark reminder that it does not matter what currency dominates the world. At the end of the day, rich people still will look down on poor people so nothing will ever change in that capacity. Rich people will be dorkier than they are today, but just as hateful and oppressive as rich people have ever been.

Really sad and depressing way to start the morning. Cry

+1

Their manipulation of the BTC market is annoying too. That is on topic, after all isn't this the wall movement tracker thread? It's their walls that are messing everything up. If more money does come into BTC then even they won't be able to afford to do that any more, which will let BTC reflect its true value and can only be a good thing. That is of course until the scumbag banks join in with even bigger walls of course.

BTC is just an intermediate step to something much greater. In the short term we have to get the criminals out of politics and government (which means a total revamp of our system).

Regarding the walls - just don't look at them. Buy ~~and sell~~ when you need to. Big players might see those walls but really, what do they do outside of psychologically? Thus far we don't have any shorting of BTC, and that is a good thing.

We need to protect ourselves from the bankers. They all have the same thing on their minds, war and...

there is quite some shorting possible on www.bitfinex.com

I wasn't aware of that. But, due to the design of the network, you can't do naked shorting I would think. So, shorting would mean, borrowing actual shares from someones account and then selling them and promising to buy them back at a later date. I would also think that you would have to cover the sell in cash and would be subject to margin calls as well. I don't know if shorting BTC nor derivatives, could really ever "work" at quite the same was as they do in the stock market. For one, most people don't keep their coins in the exchanges - right there you can't borrow them for sale.

ChartBuddy

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S3052

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Quote from: Its About Sharing on May 18, 2013, 10:35:51 AM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 08:17:22 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:12:29 AM

This entire line of conversation is a stark reminder that it does not matter what currency dominates the world. At the end of the day, rich people still will look down on poor people so nothing will ever change in that capacity. Rich people will be dorkier than they are today, but just as hateful and oppressive as rich people have ever been.

Really sad and depressing way to start the morning. Cry

+1

Their manipulation of the BTC market is annoying too. That is on topic, after all isn't this the wall movement tracker thread? It's their walls that are messing everything up. If more money does come into BTC then even they won't be able to afford to do that any more, which will let BTC reflect its true value and can only be a good thing. That is of course until the scumbag banks join in with even bigger walls of course.

BTC is just an intermediate step to something much greater. In the short term we have to get the criminals out of politics and government (which means a total revamp of our system).

Regarding the walls - just don't look at them. Buy ~~and sell~~ when you need to. Big players might see those walls but really, what do they do outside of psychologically? Thus far we don't have any shorting of BTC, and that is a good thing.

We need to protect ourselves from the bankers. They all have the same thing on their minds, war and...

there is quite some shorting possible on www.bitfinex.com

Dumbastronaut

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Anyone else see a textbook head and shoulders formation? We're crossing thd neckline right now :/

Its About Sharing

legendary

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Antifragile

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 08:17:22 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:12:29 AM

This entire line of conversation is a stark reminder that it does not matter what currency dominates the world. At the end of the day, rich people still will look down on poor people so nothing will ever change in that capacity. Rich people will be dorkier than they are today, but just as hateful and oppressive as rich people have ever been.

Really sad and depressing way to start the morning. Cry

+1

Their manipulation of the BTC market is annoying too. That is on topic, after all isn't this the wall movement tracker thread? It's their walls that are messing everything up. If more money does come into BTC then even they won't be able to afford to do that any more, which will let BTC reflect its true value and can only be a good thing. That is of course until the scumbag banks join in with even bigger walls of course.

BTC is just an intermediate step to something much greater. In the short term we have to get the criminals out of politics and government (which means a total revamp of our system).

Regarding the walls - just don't look at them. Buy ~~and sell~~ when you need to. Big players might see those walls but really, what do they do outside of psychologically? Thus far we don't have any shorting of BTC, and that is a good thing.

We need to protect ourselves from the bankers. They all have the same thing on their minds, war and...

TheKoziTwo

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Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:40:00 AM

There's truth to that but a bank is amoral. It's just a building. It's the people that make it "evil". We're just trading one group of greed, oppressive bastards for another. Heck, a few pages back or so there was talk of starting their own bank in some other country. See, Bitcoin is not about hating the banks, its about not being in control. They want to take control from the current rich and powerful, so they can be the ones in control and be the same greedy bastards we have now.

You know what...I'm going to the beach to hang out with the lowly poor people. As I refer to me, them, most of us...the mainstream. Not about to wreck my day over a stupid thread.

Thanks for the +1 brother.

Most bitcoin pioneers are of the voluntaryist & libertarian philosophy. That means we're against the current control structure and do indeed want it replaced, but it doesn't mean we want to replace it with ourself, but simply systems that cannot be controlled. We don't want control, we just don't want to be controlled. Listen to Milton Friedman, he'll teach you something about greed.

ChartBuddy

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MickeyT2008

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This account was recently hacked

Quote from: Zephir on May 18, 2013, 09:25:51 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:40:00 AM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 08:17:22 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:12:29 AM

This entire line of conversation is a stark reminder that it does not matter what currency dominates the world. At the end of the day, rich people still will look down on poor people so nothing will ever change in that capacity. Rich people will be dorkier than they are today, but just as hateful and oppressive as rich people have ever been.

Really sad and depressing way to start the morning. Cry

+1

Their manipulation of the BTC market is annoying too. That is on topic, after all isn't this the wall movement tracker thread? It's their walls that are messing everything up. If more money does come into BTC then even they won't be able to afford to do that any more, which will let BTC reflect its true value and can only be a good thing. That is of course until the scumbag banks join in with even bigger walls of course.

There's truth to that but a bank is amoral. It's just a building. It's the people that make it "evil". We're just trading one group of greed, oppressive bastards for another. Heck, a few pages back or so there was talk of starting their own bank in some other country. See, Bitcoin is not about hating the banks, its about not being in control. They want to take control from the current rich and powerful, so they can be the ones in control and be the same greedy bastards we have now.

You know what...I'm going to the beach to hang out with the lowly poor people. As I refer to me, them, most of us...the mainstream. Not about to wreck my day over a stupid thread.

Thanks for the +1 brother.

+1 from me too.

I don´t know how to think about you.
A few pages back you made panic and talked some "bear"shit and now such a good statement.
For "panic sell" spamming please start your own thread.
I´m glad not to ignore you or anybody else, but stop spamming "bear"shit and talk like that post above more often.
Thanks

Often when trading is slow this thread descends into a petty flame war, it's very boring.

Pale Phoenix

sr. member

Activity: 420

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Quote from: samson on May 18, 2013, 07:08:13 AM

These people who have pulled out may or may not have used Dwolla in the past and probably don't realise that it's mainly used by pennyless noobs gambling with their day to day living expenses instead of well funded traders.

Interesting logic. I'd argue that the people who pulled out probably realize the importance of minimizing their risk, and Dwolla's transaction volume is irrelevant to that analysis.

What is relevant is that the company holding our funds is facing an adversary that can seize those funds at will, including offshore funds via the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. Whether or not that's likely to happen is up for debate, but in the real world, managing risk is the way people with money keep it.

Zephir

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Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:40:00 AM

Quote from: MickeyT2008 on May 18, 2013, 08:17:22 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on May 18, 2013, 08:12:29 AM

This entire line of conversation is a stark reminder that it does not matter what currency dominates the world. At the end of the day, rich people still will look down on poor people so nothing will ever change in that capacity. Rich people will be dorkier than they are today, but just as hateful and oppressive as rich people have ever been.

Really sad and depressing way to start the morning. Cry

+1

Their manipulation of the BTC market is annoying too. That is on topic, after all isn't this the wall movement tracker thread? It's their walls that are messing everything up. If more money does come into BTC then even they won't be able to afford to do that any more, which will let BTC reflect its true value and can only be a good thing. That is of course until the scumbag banks join in with even bigger walls of course.

There's truth to that but a bank is amoral. It's just a building. It's the people that make it "evil". We're just trading one group of greed, oppressive bastards for another. Heck, a few pages back or so there was talk of starting their own bank in some other country. See, Bitcoin is not about hating the banks, its about not being in control. They want to take control from the current rich and powerful, so they can be the ones in control and be the same greedy bastards we have now.

You know what...I'm going to the beach to hang out with the lowly poor people. As I refer to me, them, most of us...the mainstream. Not about to wreck my day over a stupid thread.

Thanks for the +1 brother.

+1 from me too.

I don´t know how to think about you.
A few pages back you made panic and talked some "bear"shit and now such a good statement.
For "panic sell" spamming please start your own thread.
I´m glad not to ignore you or anybody else, but stop spamming "bear"shit and talk like that post above more often.
Thanks

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33476. (Read 26496299 times)