Who profits more during bull Market, trader vs holder? - page 2.

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: letteredhub on November 07, 2024, 06:08:00 PM

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on November 06, 2024, 12:59:48 PM

Quote from: Wiwo on October 30, 2024, 02:44:38 PM

-snip-
Taking this question out of my personal curiosity of the market and how each bull run. Ale more millionaires in the bitcoin ecosystem, via trading vs holding.

Above all calculations, traders will always be more profitable than investors (holders) but the issue is that trading is not easy, notwithstanding, all conditions being equal, traders will make multiples of what investors will make periodically.

You're failing to take into account such factors as:
Risk management.
Trading experience/knowledge.
Size of trading capital. Etc.
Trading not been easy as you already know would mean that the tendency of losing is as much as high as that of making good ROI but for a long term holder the above factor doesn't really have significant effect on his profit in as much as he's willing to hodl long provided he started hodling at a good dip price.

On the contrary, I considered all those conditions, but first, you don't have to worry about the size of the account in this context because it has to be the same for both trading and investing if all conditions must be equally compared. It now depending on how the trader will adjust his risk for the same purpose.

Sticking to the OP's condition of Bitcoin in bull run, of which the last of such movements was seen during the ETF saga, and I tell you, traders do not always go wrong here, it is all bullish and it's about your preparation, calculation and management. For instance, like what happens in the market since the US election day, if the capital of the trader is just $500, I could have calculated the liquidation risk at about $60,000 even in an almost certain bullish condition. This is no big deal as nothing stops traders from making analysis to know their levels.

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: Catenaccio on November 07, 2024, 09:48:47 AM

Quote from: EarnOnVictor on November 06, 2024, 12:59:48 PM

Above all calculations, traders will always be more profitable than investors (holders) but the issue is that trading is not easy, notwithstanding, all conditions being equal, traders will make multiples of what investors will make periodically. This is why we always need to differentiate them if it's ROI or account safety we want. If it's ROI, a good trader will make more, but if it's the lower risk which will automatically mean better account safety, then investment has it. The choice is ours!

The truth is opposite and in your post you mentioned it too. Trading is more profitable than holding only if you are very professional and successful trader with very good success rate in trading. If you are not a trader like this, and most of us are not a trader like this, trading is less profitable than investment and holding.

From the part of my post that you edited out, was there no "good" attached to the condition of the trader? Now, if the situation becomes equal where the trader is good and the investor is also good at their jobs, won't what I said subsist? That's just it unless you do not want to accept the fact. You only brought this up from the judgemental of how trading is difficult to profit you (because people lack the needed psychology and expertise) and investment is easier to profit you without regarding the general possibility of how the two can profit you if you are good at them both.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: khiholangkang on November 11, 2024, 09:11:13 AM

I also think that people who have knowledge and experience in trading will be more profitable than holders, I honestly the holder can also get a very large profit if it goes in Early, but for I think it means to some people who make purchases when they are available at large market, of course it will not be the same, and the same as traders, if the holder has the ability to analyze projects or coins that have the potential to get a large increase then they can also profit, but to see which one is more each person.

That's true if we're talking about the top 10% of most profitable traders in crypto, but because it's a fact that 90% of "traders" actually lose, then MOST active traders DON'T profit more during a bull market. If you can't outperform Bitcoin, then it would be a more sound decision to HODL all your trading capital in Bitcoin. That would save you time, money, and most importantly - your mental sanity. Cool

khiholangkang

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I also think that people who have knowledge and experience in trading will be more profitable than holders, I honestly the holder can also get a very large profit if it goes in Early, but for I think it means to some people who make purchases when they are available at large market, of course it will not be the same, and the same as traders, if the holder has the ability to analyze projects or coins that have the potential to get a large increase then they can also profit, but to see which one is more each person.

tvplus006

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on November 08, 2024, 02:41:03 PM

The question looks like a similar question but not, it's obvious that during bullrun someone who hold coin for long term will profit more because the coin it's holding may probably reached 5X or more depending when it started holding coins,so I know that holding a coin is something that turn people into billionaire, for example, people that hold bitcoin since 8 to 9 year, and they hold big fraction of bitcoin, by now those people will be a billionaire in Bitcoin, that is why I will prefer holding bitcoin than trading, so another of holding Bitcoin is that you can't loss your bitcoin or your coin same time whereas during trading you can loss everything in your portfolio within short time.

It will be difficult for you to become a billionaire if you bought bitcoin for 50 thousand instead of 5 dollars) To achieve this goal, you will need to buy several hundred million dollars worth of BTC. But the fact that it is much more difficult for a holder to lose his money than for a trader is an undeniable fact.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on November 08, 2024, 02:41:03 PM

The question looks like a similar question but not, it's obvious that during bullrun someone who hold coin for long term will profit more because the coin it's holding may probably reached 5X or more depending when it started holding coins,so I know that holding a coin is something that turn people into billionaire, for example, people that hold bitcoin since 8 to 9 year, and they hold big fraction of bitcoin, by now those people will be a billionaire in Bitcoin, that is why I will prefer holding bitcoin than trading, so another of holding Bitcoin is that you can't loss your bitcoin or your coin same time whereas during trading you can loss everything in your portfolio within short time.

It's simply because HODLers make less mistakes plus the fact that 90% of active "traders" actually lose some or a majority of their capital. I will sound like a broken record again, but if you as a pleb CAN'T outperform Bitcoin, THEN denominate your whole capital into Bitcoin and HODL.

You may be in profit in fiat, but you'll also be with less units of Bitcoin because you didn't outperform it.

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Quote from: Wiwo on October 30, 2024, 02:44:38 PM

~~~

Taking this question out of my personal curiosity of the market and how each bull run. Ale more millionaires in the bitcoin ecosystem, via trading vs holding.

Hmmm, that looks fascinating !
Both strategies are quite good, but you need to understand that It's totally eligible on your own ability. If you're an innovative buddy and know everything about it. So I think it's okay.

Let's elobrate it more...
For me, trading is more profitable than investment. But here is the problem that Trading is not easy it's has a lot of risk. If you are pro and know everything about the Trading. So I think there is nothing bad in it that can cause you to lose. Besides, if you don't have any impartial knowledge so it's good to stick with an investment strategy because, in this strategy, you don't need any impartial knowledge or any active vision, as well as it's didn't found any high risk as compared to Trading.

Alone055

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on November 08, 2024, 02:41:03 PM

The question looks like a similar question but not, it's obvious that during bullrun someone who hold coin for long term will profit more because the coin it's holding may probably reached 5X or more depending when it started holding coins,so I know that holding a coin is something that turn people into billionaire, for example, people that hold bitcoin since 8 to 9 year, and they hold big fraction of bitcoin, by now those people will be a billionaire in Bitcoin, that is why I will prefer holding bitcoin than trading, so another of holding Bitcoin is that you can't loss your bitcoin or your coin same time whereas during trading you can loss everything in your portfolio within short time.

Even though I agree that holding can bring significant profits, the situation, especially with Bitcoin, isn't the same as it used to be 8 or 9 years ago. So, someone who buys and holds Bitcoin in current times cannot expect to get the same level of profits that users got when they purchased in Bitcoin's early days, and the reason behind this is simple. Bitcoin used to be very low then, so anyone who repurchased a few Bitcoins then became a millionaire if they held until recent years. Still, someone who buys Bitcoin now can barely get a few hundred thousand dollars in return even if they keep it for about two cycles because Bitcoin's price isn't going to reach millions this soon.

So, one might get 5x or more in returns if they can buy Bitcoin during the lowest times of the bull run when Bitcoin reached around $16k in the previous cycle. So the earlier you get in, the more profits you can get. In contrast, when we talk about trading, the most significant advantage it has is you don't need a specific market time for it to start. So, even if the market is not at the bottom, you can still start trading and earn a good profit if you know what you are doing.

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Quote from: EarnOnVictor on November 06, 2024, 12:59:48 PM

Quote from: Wiwo on October 30, 2024, 02:44:38 PM

-snip-
Taking this question out of my personal curiosity of the market and how each bull run. Ale more millionaires in the bitcoin ecosystem, via trading vs holding.

Above all calculations, traders will always be more profitable than investors (holders) but the issue is that trading is not easy, notwithstanding, all conditions being equal, traders will make multiples of what investors will make periodically. This is why we always need to differentiate them if it's ROI or account safety we want. If it's ROI, a good trader will make more, but if it's the lower risk which will automatically mean better account safety, then investment has it. The choice is ours!

Traders are taking more risk than investors who will just invest in a particular project and wait for the pump to sell; but traders do have target and if gone wrong, they will risk all their money especially if they don’t know how to do proper risk management.
Good traders that have good knowledge and experience about trading and technical analysis do always gain in any market situation, they know their way out in the bear market as well as the bull run, that’s why they are always active and always have profit. Investors do have bastard money sometimes when they hit some projects that will give them huge amount of profit within short period of time, but for traders, it can be very minute.

GeorgeJohn

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The question looks like a similar question but not, it's obvious that during bullrun someone who hold coin for long term will profit more because the coin it's holding may probably reached 5X or more depending when it started holding coins,so I know that holding a coin is something that turn people into billionaire, for example, people that hold bitcoin since 8 to 9 year, and they hold big fraction of bitcoin, by now those people will be a billionaire in Bitcoin, that is why I will prefer holding bitcoin than trading, so another of holding Bitcoin is that you can't loss your bitcoin or your coin same time whereas during trading you can loss everything in your portfolio within short time.

letteredhub

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Quote from: EarnOnVictor on November 06, 2024, 12:59:48 PM

Quote from: Wiwo on October 30, 2024, 02:44:38 PM

-snip-
Taking this question out of my personal curiosity of the market and how each bull run. Ale more millionaires in the bitcoin ecosystem, via trading vs holding.

Above all calculations, traders will always be more profitable than investors (holders) but the issue is that trading is not easy, notwithstanding, all conditions being equal, traders will make multiples of what investors will make periodically.

You're failing to take into account such factors as:
Risk management.
Trading experience/knowledge.
Size of trading capital. Etc.
Trading not been easy as you already know would mean that the tendency of losing is as much as high as that of making good ROI but for a long term holder the above factor doesn't really have significant effect on his profit in as much as he's willing to hodl long provided he started hodling at a good dip price.

Wakate

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Quote from: Ricardo11 on November 06, 2024, 11:46:51 AM

Quote from: bettercrypto on November 06, 2024, 02:24:34 AM

Most of the time the ones who become profitable in the bull run are the long-term holders, and if there are traders who become profitable, it is the expert traders or scalpers who can benefit from these situations. But those other traders who don't have a deep or broad knowledge of trading are for sure not going to benefit from that.

The majority community in the crypto space knows this; that's the only logic: if you don't know about trading, nothing good will happen to you when you do trading activity.
This is the common thing that happens in the world of crypto trading.

Without sufficient knowledge and experience in trading, no one can achieve success in trading, the trading market is very volatile, if you do not do proper market research for trading here, the risk of losing is very high. Therefore, to achieve success in trading, it is very important to have quick market analysis and risk management experience, if someone wants to trade without proper experience, all the right strategies and proper market research, then he will only go towards disaster, because in trading you will lose everything because of a small mistake. Therefore, you should know everything about trading well and then start this trading.

Even though you have great knowledge about trading and you don't utilize your risk management, you can still lose money. Trading is more of taking risks and understanding why we are taking that risk and what we tend to gain or lose if something goes wrong. When we are knowledgeable about the risk we are taking and what could be the after effects if something goes wrong with our trades, that alone can make us take extra measures ensuring that we don't do too much that can make us lose more money. Whether we are traders or investors, the capital we are using to trade or hold will determine how much we can make in the crypto market.

tvplus006

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Quote from: Salahmu on November 07, 2024, 09:24:50 AM

Yeah on that regards if that can actually happened then the trader and the holder will certainly earn the same profit at the end if they use the same amount, however I doubt if a trader can only open one order and holds as much as a holder because holding is refers to a very long period of investment which could be of the interval of several years, so there is no way a trader would like to open only one position for that long because I understand that trading is mostly done on a short period of time and not for opening an order to be lasted for several years, however on a more clear explanation of the reason why trader that has only a single order will not earn more than a holder even if holding his position for as long as the holder, so perhaps let's say a holder put $50k and the trader also open a position with the same $50k and decided to leave it as the holder, they would both come out with the same results after those years, so indirectly the trader has made himself a holder by staying that long.

I would not insist on my opinion if I could not confirm my words. I have previously left a message about this, and accompanied it with a screenshot - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.64696436 Re-read this post and you will understand that there are some traders who have been holding their position with maximum leverage for one year, since when Bitcoin was worth $26365.

Catenaccio

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Quote from: EarnOnVictor on November 06, 2024, 12:59:48 PM

Above all calculations, traders will always be more profitable than investors (holders) but the issue is that trading is not easy, notwithstanding, all conditions being equal, traders will make multiples of what investors will make periodically. This is why we always need to differentiate them if it's ROI or account safety we want. If it's ROI, a good trader will make more, but if it's the lower risk which will automatically mean better account safety, then investment has it. The choice is ours!

The truth is opposite and in your post you mentioned it too. Trading is more profitable than holding only if you are very professional and successful trader with very good success rate in trading. If you are not a trader like this, and most of us are not a trader like this, trading is less profitable than investment and holding.

Holding will not cause you any loss and you can enjoy nearly maximum profit with your bitcoin. With trading, you can win or lose and in long run, it's hard to make it better and more profitable than investment. If everyone can be rich with trading, there is no saying "If you can not hold, you can't be rich", which is true.

See the ROI of Bitcoin with years of holding, if you hold your bitcoin, you will get profit and holding it in more market cycles, you will get better ROI.
https://casebitcoin.com/

Salahmu

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Quote from: tvplus006 on November 01, 2024, 04:44:38 PM

Quote from: Salahmu on November 01, 2024, 12:19:51 PM

This question is quite difficult to answer from your perspective but however I would like to answer based on the process a trader could have undergo on the process, so actually if both a trader and a holder invested on Bitcoin when the price was at $35k and later on the price of Bitcoin got to $100k, the person that would be on a higher profit will be the holder because he never touches his Bitcoin in anyway but instead he keeps adding more, while the trader on the other hand will not make much profit because is obvious that before the Bitcoin price got to that amount a trader would have open so many positions and of course a good number of those positions may not turn out well for him, so that's why I believe that a holder has more chance to profit than the trader on this scenario.

Well, if we consider the option that the trader has opened only one order and holds it as much as the holder. In this case, his profit will exceed the profit received by the holder. And the size of this profit will depend on the leverage when opening an order.

Yeah on that regards if that can actually happened then the trader and the holder will certainly earn the same profit at the end if they use the same amount, however I doubt if a trader can only open one order and holds as much as a holder because holding is refers to a very long period of investment which could be of the interval of several years, so there is no way a trader would like to open only one position for that long because I understand that trading is mostly done on a short period of time and not for opening an order to be lasted for several years, however on a more clear explanation of the reason why trader that has only a single order will not earn more than a holder even if holding his position for as long as the holder, so perhaps let's say a holder put $50k and the trader also open a position with the same $50k and decided to leave it as the holder, they would both come out with the same results after those years, so indirectly the trader has made himself a holder by staying that long.

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: Wiwo on October 30, 2024, 02:44:38 PM

-snip-
Taking this question out of my personal curiosity of the market and how each bull run. Ale more millionaires in the bitcoin ecosystem, via trading vs holding.

Above all calculations, traders will always be more profitable than investors (holders) but the issue is that trading is not easy, notwithstanding, all conditions being equal, traders will make multiples of what investors will make periodically. This is why we always need to differentiate them if it's ROI or account safety we want. If it's ROI, a good trader will make more, but if it's the lower risk which will automatically mean better account safety, then investment has it. The choice is ours!

Ricardo11

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Quote from: bettercrypto on November 06, 2024, 02:24:34 AM

Most of the time the ones who become profitable in the bull run are the long-term holders, and if there are traders who become profitable, it is the expert traders or scalpers who can benefit from these situations. But those other traders who don't have a deep or broad knowledge of trading are for sure not going to benefit from that.

The majority community in the crypto space knows this; that's the only logic: if you don't know about trading, nothing good will happen to you when you do trading activity.
This is the common thing that happens in the world of crypto trading.

Without sufficient knowledge and experience in trading, no one can achieve success in trading, the trading market is very volatile, if you do not do proper market research for trading here, the risk of losing is very high. Therefore, to achieve success in trading, it is very important to have quick market analysis and risk management experience, if someone wants to trade without proper experience, all the right strategies and proper market research, then he will only go towards disaster, because in trading you will lose everything because of a small mistake. Therefore, you should know everything about trading well and then start this trading.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: ? on November 06, 2024, 03:21:37 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 06, 2024, 02:29:40 AM

Quote from: ? on November 05, 2024, 02:43:43 AM

Can you tell more in detail what changed in your perspective on the BTC and what it actually is - but for you?
I am too on such a path so I would be glad to hear some opinions.. as well as to gain more knowledge, of course..

It's merely about my personal opinions, which as the stupid one in BitcoinTalk, those opinions usually end with other users of the forum name-call me as "unserious" or "dishonest".

The latest perspective that I've have posted, although I already had this perspective before I was called out, is Bitcoin's market as a "Naturally-Occurring Ponzi" - Wherein a seller to sell in profit, then new money from buyers must come into the system. Because how else could anyone sell for a profit in ANY market?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The other changing perspective is Bitcoin's decreasing security budget/mining rewards. Because depending just on the fees might not be very sustainable, especially if features like Ordinals and Runes are seen by the majority of users as "exploits".

In my opinion, BTC is no Ponzi-scheme, however, it does work just with the shitcoins - funds flow in, the ones who hold it can go out, and the price decrease, but due to the sheer volume of money going in, you can't be the one to push the BTC into something like $20k. And institutions do play their role too, going in with ETFs and making sure that BTC is the coin that is in such high regard that even entities like that go after it. We don't see Blackrock buying DOGE or ETFs for it being created.. Grin

So, I do agree with your view in that regard, however - it's how the market works.

If you got the context of the point I was making, I never said Bitcoin itself is a "Ponzi Scheme". What I said was the market is a Naturally-Occurring Ponzi", like Gold - It's a sort of process. It's more of "Ponzi-like" than a "Ponzi Scheme". There's no fraudulent behavior/nefarious individual at the top, BUT there are feedback loops driven by expectations, confidence, and something unique in Bitcoin, driven by ideology.

Because when the price surges, then more investors are attracted and therefore continuing the cycle for as long as possible - until the inevitable market crash.

FortuneFollower

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Quote from: shinratensei_ on November 05, 2024, 09:32:03 PM

Quote from: SamReomo on November 04, 2024, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: Wiwo on October 30, 2024, 02:44:38 PM

Taking this question out of my personal curiosity of the market and how each bull run. Ale more millionaires in the bitcoin ecosystem, via trading vs holding.

Good traders always make more profits then investors because traders buy sell multiple times within a year and investors buy and hold an asset to gain profits from it. I know investing is way safer than trading but with trading the potential of earning higher profits is possible.

Someone who's a good trader can earn higher profits by shorting Bitcoin with leveraging when it's at the peak. Just think that the ones who shorted Bitcoin when it reached $73.5k a few days ago with 10x leverage have already made a lot profit with it.

not always true though, some trader might blow their entire month's profit in just one trading mistake, most of the trader doesn't just always profit everyday, some of them have occassional pullback as well, even the best trader there is doesn't have 100% win rate, probably just around 70%, which is still good if they can manage their trade with proper SL/TP setup and risk management.

the investor on the other hand, just ignores the market price action and just hold their coin with targeted price, it works flawlessly and the fact that it carries no risk of getting blown up because of trade means if the market is rising high just like how BTC rise from $16k to $70k, they've made so much profit without even the need to risk their capital which i find pretty astonishing.

the thing is, a trader will more likely trade 1-5% of their entire capital's worth for the sake of risk management compared to investor who just invest 100% of their money, so a trader can keep making profit swing trading doesn't mean their portfolio can grow dramatically fast.

It all depends on the skill each of them has.
And, trading has more potential, whereas investing - has more stability to it, if you do it with coins that are old and reliable.
Sometimes trader has his lows, and his highs - and the investor just waits patiently for the situation to change or break out.

?

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 06, 2024, 02:29:40 AM

Quote from: ? on November 05, 2024, 02:43:43 AM

Can you tell more in detail what changed in your perspective on the BTC and what it actually is - but for you?
I am too on such a path so I would be glad to hear some opinions.. as well as to gain more knowledge, of course..

It's merely about my personal opinions, which as the stupid one in BitcoinTalk, those opinions usually end with other users of the forum name-call me as "unserious" or "dishonest".

The latest perspective that I've have posted, although I already had this perspective before I was called out, is Bitcoin's market as a "Naturally-Occurring Ponzi" - Wherein a seller to sell in profit, then new money from buyers must come into the system. Because how else could anyone sell for a profit in ANY market?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The other changing perspective is Bitcoin's decreasing security budget/mining rewards. Because depending just on the fees might not be very sustainable, especially if features like Ordinals and Runes are seen by the majority of users as "exploits".

In my opinion, BTC is no Ponzi-scheme, however, it does work just with the shitcoins - funds flow in, the ones who hold it can go out, and the price decrease, but due to the sheer volume of money going in, you can't be the one to push the BTC into something like $20k. And institutions do play their role too, going in with ETFs and making sure that BTC is the coin that is in such high regard that even entities like that go after it. We don't see Blackrock buying DOGE or ETFs for it being created.. Grin

So, I do agree with your view in that regard, however - it's how the market works.

Topic: Who profits more during bull Market, trader vs holder? - page 2. (Read 1440 times)