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Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 423. (Read 901522 times)

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
May 19, 2015, 09:37:20 PM

Then when calamity hits this kind of person, and he is forced to believe something, he literally goes crazy, because he isn't familiar with believing. Then he commits suicide and doesn't exist any longer.

Just so you know, not that you will ever understand because your conditioning is so deeply ingrained into your psyche there is no other you that exists outside of the 'special' paranormal narrative you believe yourself to be living in, calamitous events are actually easier to cope with as an atheist because we understand that it is all cause-and-effect action/reaction which resulted in the calamitous event, not that some mythical super-being decided that day to fuck with us, you know, because he loves us so or is teaching us something or [insert arbitrary reasoning to excuse your god here].



The Great First Cause is not the result of effect. He is outside of what we know as the universe, a concept that we don't understand.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
May 19, 2015, 09:35:18 PM

Then when calamity hits this kind of person, and he is forced to believe something, he literally goes crazy, because he isn't familiar with believing. Then he commits suicide and doesn't exist any longer.

Just so you know, not that you will ever understand because your conditioning is so deeply ingrained into your psyche there is no other you that exists outside of the 'special' paranormal narrative you believe yourself to be living in, calamitous events are actually easier to cope with as an atheist because we understand that it is all cause-and-effect action/reaction which resulted in the calamitous event, not that some mythical super-being decided that day to fuck with us, you know, because he loves us so or is teaching us something or [insert arbitrary reasoning to excuse your god here].



At least he admitted that heaven/hell don't exist.

You might hope this. But you don't know it. It's exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about when I expressed the surprise that atheists will have when they are finally forced to believe that they are way off base... forced to believe in God by God Himself.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
May 19, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
Also theists in my experience are old, uninteresting, fugly, bad at sex, and smell like stale cheese. And undesirable among young people.

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/how-races-and-religions-match-in-online-dating/
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
May 19, 2015, 05:46:47 PM
the joint, isn't empiricism the basis of metaphysics? After all, without our brain and subsequent five senses, there'd be no way of even coming up with metaphysical ideas.

Do you agree with Descartes or David Hume?

There's a difference between asking whether empiricism is the basis of metaphysics, and asking whether something empirical is the basis of metaphysics.

Empiricism is just a theory of knowledge acquisition, i.e. the theory that any and all knowledge is gained through sensory experience.  Metaphysics differs from classical physics in that it does not control for observation, and therefore there can be no direct metaphysical 'evidence.'

To that extent, if you are an empiricist, you would probably reach the conclusion that something empirical, i.e. the brain and sensory organs, gives rise to the type of abstract thinking required for metaphysical ideas.  

If you are a metaphysicist (ultimately, not practically), you might reject the Positivistic Universe assumption and consider that the brain and sensory organs might not exist mutually exclusive from that which perceives it, and thus may be affected by it.

But regardless of whether you adopt an empirical or metaphysical view of reality, the fact remains that all we are doing is tossing around ideas according to logical rules to build better and better theories.  We are limited to ideas and the rules they obey.  We have no choice but to regard the rules of logic as absolutely unbreakable and foolproof, because it is the only means by which we have cognitive understanding of anything that makes sense.

The concluding point is that this means that all we can do is create an understanding of things as it relates to our mind.  Talking about reality independent of mind is beyond our cognitive capability.

With regards to Descartes and Hume, could you be a little more specific?

Interesting, is your believe in an intelligent designer "absolute", so you believe it to be an absolute truth according to logic?

Just in their ideals, Hume was more of an empiricist, Descartes believed in the mind separate from the body/brain.

Yes, inasmuch as theory-making is axiomatically predicated upon mental processes, and inasmuch as logic constitutes the rules of valid thinking, I believe we need to defer to logic as an absolute objectifier.

Furthermore, I believe that objective and subjective are fundamentally inseparable, despite being inverse to each other.  I believe that in every subject-object relationship there is an absolute objectifier that functions similar to a God-like entity, and so it follows I also believe the Intelligent Design process works on multiple levels.  I think there is a sort-of archetype for Intelligently-Designed systems which serves as an objective, referential template for all other ID systems, the result being that all other ID systems are isomorphic to the archetype.

And, with regards to Hume and Descartes, I would say I wouldn't ascribe to either of those ideas (fundamentally).  Cartesian Dualism is easily proven false by the sameness-in-difference principle (i.e. mental and physical reality must logically reduce to a common medium), and for Hume, I think there is self-apparently knowledge that is available to us which is independent of experience.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
May 19, 2015, 05:29:01 PM

Oh fine, fine, take the easy way out  Roll Eyes

Shortcuttin' son-of-a...
Definitely. Believing that a certain "someone" will help you in life and save you once you die is definitely the harder way.  Cheesy


Well, when you put it that way, I guess it does seem a bit ironic, doesn't it? Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 334
Merit: 250
May 19, 2015, 04:58:43 PM
Why would you need that?
The need of attention or the need for feeling like someone cares about the things you are in need of or what you are happy about.

It looks more like a imaginary friend from a child that has a bad childhood with abuse.

It's something you feel, or you don't. A highly personal experience. There is no point to ask such questions, it's almost like asking someone why does he prefer one music genre over some other and then, maybe, trying to persuade him that he's wrong (probably not the best example, but you know what I've meant).

The main religions were created with that purpose of controlling the masses. The weaker minded fellows need someone to believe in; something that will make them push forward.

While I do agree that religion was/is recognized by ruling caste as yet another fine mechanism to control the masses, I don't think that its origins are in any way related to this. Religious ideas are as old as human species. Abuse came later.

Also... weaker minded people, seriously? Sure, bring on more stereotypes. I am certainly glad that you feel somehow superior to religious people, but it is very likely that you are not. I, for one, know plenty of atheists who aren't particularly "strong minded", to put it politely.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 1254
Thread-puller extraordinaire
May 19, 2015, 07:32:25 AM

Then when calamity hits this kind of person, and he is forced to believe something, he literally goes crazy, because he isn't familiar with believing. Then he commits suicide and doesn't exist any longer.

Just so you know, not that you will ever understand because your conditioning is so deeply ingrained into your psyche there is no other you that exists outside of the 'special' paranormal narrative you believe yourself to be living in, calamitous events are actually easier to cope with as an atheist because we understand that it is all cause-and-effect action/reaction which resulted in the calamitous event, not that some mythical super-being decided that day to fuck with us, you know, because he loves us so or is teaching us something or [insert arbitrary reasoning to excuse your god here].

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
May 19, 2015, 06:55:21 AM
Real Atheists, not the ones who like to call themselves atheists for fun, always has a good proof-based explanation for it, I believe Religion makes them feel like being inside a Petri dish, or they notice that religion is like walking with a cloth on the eyes. But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...

You'd be amazed at the peace of mind you get when you realize you don't have to believe in anything.  You can just exist.  Smiley

Then when calamity hits this kind of person, and he is forced to believe something, he literally goes crazy, because he isn't familiar with believing. Then he commits suicide and doesn't exist any longer.

Smiley

EDIT: Of course, that is nothing compared with how freaked out he will be in the resurrection when he is forced to believe God exists.
hero member
Activity: 1778
Merit: 764
www.V.systems
May 19, 2015, 06:43:24 AM
I should start a VOD haters club / thread topic next time.
legendary
Activity: 2660
Merit: 1141
May 19, 2015, 01:59:24 AM

That's is wrong and doesn't work (rich case). Have you people not been taught properly? Even I, who consider myself somewhere partially agnostic and an atheist know that. No, I don't have religions though.
Praying does have some physiological benefits, but meditation has physical ones (changes in the brain that are quite helpful).

Yes, I agree with your perception.  Smiley


Sounds to me like you are lazy and want things handed to you.  You want strength?  Go work out (physical) or mediate (mental).

Two working hands can accomplish more than a million clasped in prayer.

Oh surely I did my work too, not just pray. Sometimes there is a big problem that so hard to resolved by yourself, and you need a something that can calm yourself and make your mind be refresh. I named it praying. Maybe the other person have the way he like to help himself when facing a problem.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
May 19, 2015, 01:52:56 AM
Real Atheists, not the ones who like to call themselves atheists for fun, always has a good proof-based explanation for it, I believe Religion makes them feel like being inside a Petri dish, or they notice that religion is like walking with a cloth on the eyes. But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...
This just proves my point. The main religions were created with that purpose of controlling the masses. The weaker minded fellows need someone to believe in; something that will make them push forward.

Oh fine, fine, take the easy way out  Roll Eyes

Shortcuttin' son-of-a...
Definitely. Believing that a certain "someone" will help you in life and save you once you die is definitely the harder way.  Cheesy

But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...
I believe Vod has clearly asserted the truth in that regards:
Quote from: Vod
You'd be amazed at the peace of mind you get when you realize you don't have to believe in anything.  You can just exist. 
We don't need religious death-cults and their 'magical' symbolism and rituals to find joy in living. This video, for example, fills me with joy and wonder yet I am absolutely able to understand the principles of flight enough that there is no mystery behind what you are watching, but it is still awe inspiring.

No 'mysticism' needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czy0pXRRZcs
"I am not playing with death. I am playing with life" - Yves Rossy (Jetman)
I definitely agree on that. I even think life is better as one doesn't have any restrictions nor obligations that sometimes take up time.
Now tell me where to buy those jetpacks(?). Great video.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 1254
Thread-puller extraordinaire
May 19, 2015, 01:48:56 AM
But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...

I believe Vod has clearly asserted the truth in that regards:

Quote from: Vod
You'd be amazed at the peace of mind you get when you realize you don't have to believe in anything.  You can just exist. 

We don't need religious death-cults and their 'magical' symbolism and rituals to find joy in living. This video, for example, fills me with joy and wonder yet I am absolutely able to understand the principles of flight enough that there is no mystery behind what you are watching, but it is still awe inspiring.

No 'mysticism' needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czy0pXRRZcs

"I am not playing with death. I am playing with life" - Yves Rossy (Jetman)
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
May 18, 2015, 10:15:43 PM
Real Atheists, not the ones who like to call themselves atheists for fun, always has a good proof-based explanation for it, I believe Religion makes them feel like being inside a Petri dish, or they notice that religion is like walking with a cloth on the eyes. But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...

You'd be amazed at the peace of mind you get when you realize you don't have to believe in anything.  You can just exist.  Smiley

Oh fine, fine, take the easy way out  Roll Eyes

Shortcuttin' son-of-a...
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
May 18, 2015, 09:55:45 PM
Real Atheists, not the ones who like to call themselves atheists for fun, always has a good proof-based explanation for it, I believe Religion makes them feel like being inside a Petri dish, or they notice that religion is like walking with a cloth on the eyes. But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...

You'd be amazed at the peace of mind you get when you realize you don't have to believe in anything.  You can just exist.  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
May 18, 2015, 09:44:17 PM
Real Atheists, not the ones who like to call themselves atheists for fun, always has a good proof-based explanation for it, I believe Religion makes them feel like being inside a Petri dish, or they notice that religion is like walking with a cloth on the eyes. But even whith all the disadvantages a religion may have, I think mankind would be chaos without having something to believe...
sr. member
Activity: 770
Merit: 250
May 18, 2015, 05:30:23 PM
the joint, isn't empiricism the basis of metaphysics? After all, without our brain and subsequent five senses, there'd be no way of even coming up with metaphysical ideas.

Do you agree with Descartes or David Hume?

There's a difference between asking whether empiricism is the basis of metaphysics, and asking whether something empirical is the basis of metaphysics.

Empiricism is just a theory of knowledge acquisition, i.e. the theory that any and all knowledge is gained through sensory experience.  Metaphysics differs from classical physics in that it does not control for observation, and therefore there can be no direct metaphysical 'evidence.'

To that extent, if you are an empiricist, you would probably reach the conclusion that something empirical, i.e. the brain and sensory organs, gives rise to the type of abstract thinking required for metaphysical ideas.  

If you are a metaphysicist (ultimately, not practically), you might reject the Positivistic Universe assumption and consider that the brain and sensory organs might not exist mutually exclusive from that which perceives it, and thus may be affected by it.

But regardless of whether you adopt an empirical or metaphysical view of reality, the fact remains that all we are doing is tossing around ideas according to logical rules to build better and better theories.  We are limited to ideas and the rules they obey.  We have no choice but to regard the rules of logic as absolutely unbreakable and foolproof, because it is the only means by which we have cognitive understanding of anything that makes sense.

The concluding point is that this means that all we can do is create an understanding of things as it relates to our mind.  Talking about reality independent of mind is beyond our cognitive capability.

With regards to Descartes and Hume, could you be a little more specific?

Interesting, is your believe in an intelligent designer "absolute", so you believe it to be an absolute truth according to logic?

Just in their ideals, Hume was more of an empiricist, Descartes believed in the mind separate from the body/brain.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
May 18, 2015, 05:11:08 PM
the joint, isn't empiricism the basis of metaphysics? After all, without our brain and subsequent five senses, there'd be no way of even coming up with metaphysical ideas.

Do you agree with Descartes or David Hume?

There's a difference between asking whether empiricism is the basis of metaphysics, and asking whether something empirical is the basis of metaphysics.

Empiricism is just a theory of knowledge acquisition, i.e. the theory that any and all knowledge is gained through sensory experience.  Metaphysics differs from classical physics in that it does not control for observation, and therefore there can be no direct metaphysical 'evidence.'

To that extent, if you are an empiricist, you would probably reach the conclusion that something empirical, i.e. the brain and sensory organs, gives rise to the type of abstract thinking required for metaphysical ideas. 

If you are a metaphysicist (ultimately, not practically), you might reject the Positivistic Universe assumption and consider that the brain and sensory organs might not exist mutually exclusive from that which perceives it, and thus may be affected by it.

But regardless of whether you adopt an empirical or metaphysical view of reality, the fact remains that all we are doing is tossing around ideas according to logical rules to build better and better theories.  We are limited to ideas and the rules they obey.  We have no choice but to regard the rules of logic as absolutely unbreakable and foolproof, because it is the only means by which we have cognitive understanding of anything that makes sense.

The concluding point is that this means that all we can do is create an understanding of things as it relates to our mind.  Talking about reality independent of mind is beyond our cognitive capability.

With regards to Descartes and Hume, could you be a little more specific?
sr. member
Activity: 770
Merit: 250
May 18, 2015, 04:27:12 PM
the joint, isn't empiricism the basis of metaphysics? After all, without our brain and subsequent five senses, there'd be no way of even coming up with metaphysical ideas.

Do you agree with Descartes or David Hume?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
May 18, 2015, 04:13:01 PM

No problem, and good clarification. I think the problem that bugs me the most, is that this "margin-of-error" attached to conclusions derived from the Scientific Method is inherently impossible to calculate (as far as I can tell).

I agree that certain things can be proven absolutely, I suppose certain mathematical proofs would be examples of a priori knowledge, and could be proven logically with no need for inductive reasoning? When I said "nothing can ever be proven" I meant things based on inductive reasoning (lazy writing from me).

The margin-of-error can only be calculated based upon the number of trials.  If I've been alive for 3,000 days and the sun hasn't exploded yet, then based upon 3,000 "trials" I can predict with very high statistical confidence that the sun will not explode tomorrow due to a very small margin-of-error.  Of course, that confidence does no good if the sun goes nova tomorrow.  The margin-of-error exists specifically because you always have access to a limited data set.  The margin-of-error could be eliminated completely if you somehow had knowledge of all trials that ever were, are, and ever will be, but obviously we don't have this ability.

And correct, mathematical proofs are fully abstract, internally consistent, and (at least) to that extent, sound.  Whether or not (and how) they actually apply to physical reality is another issue.  But regardless, they constitute 'a priori' knowledge and are knowable at a 100% level of confidence, without any margin-of-error.

This is interesting stuff. I'd be lying if I said I understood it all, but I would like to question your final point.

I think I agree on everything up to that. If I'm understanding correctly, metrics are inherently abstract because they rely on perception to exist. Even if you had a perfect machine which used the binary metric to ask whether something existed or not, the result must be perceived by a "mind", so even this binary metric is abstract.

On to your last paragraph. Now, I agree that "metrics are self-descriptively invoked by an intelligent mind, and that all real definition is a product of these metrics", but why should that mean that "Intelligent Design is the necessary mechanism by which reality is created/defined."?

Why is it not possible that, for example, reality always existed, and the metrics that we use to define it are of our own making? Or in other words, why should our logical definition of reality have anything to do with how it was created? Just because we need metrics to understand reality, why does that mean that said reality has to have an Intelligent Designer using the same metrics?

(sorry, finding it hard to explain myself...  Undecided)

Yes, your understanding is basically correct, and also correct about the "perfect machine."  Sensory technology seems to function as a 2nd-order observer.  In the double-slit experiment of quantum mechanics, the suggestive collapse of the wave function occurred in the presence of both human and technological observers.

Your question about whether Intelligent Design is the "necessary" mechanism by which reality is created/defined is fantastic.  You are correct to imply that conclusion didn't necessarily follow.

The best model one can theoretically come up with to explain something must meet a few criteria:  It must 1) Be internally consistent, 2) Comprehensively and soundly explain all information it attempts to do so, and 3) Introduce the fewest number of assumptions, ideally zero.  Falsification of the model can happen on two levels.  At a lower level, the model can be rendered internally invalid if new information is introduced which should be explained by it, but isn't.  At a higher level, the model can be rendered externally invalid if another model, which is broader in its scope, not only explains all information in the original model, but synthesizes this knowledge with other information unexplained by the original model (the result being a deeper understanding which predicates any topological understanding).

That being said, could reality have "always existed," independent of metrics?  From an empirical perspective, maybe, but there's no possible way to know without introducing some unnecessary assumptions.  This actually gets right back to the Positivistic Universe assumption, as your question yields to the same impossible means of empirical falsification, i.e. you would need to somehow collect metric data via observation in a Universe totally void of observers and metrics.  What we do know, however, is that the data suggest that in 100% of cases where reality has been affirmed to exist, perception and metrics were present, and in exactly 0 cases has reality been affirmed to exist in the absence of perception and metrics.  That's why the Positivistic Universe assumption exists in the first place; it's as practical to adhere to this assumption as it is to assume the sun won't go nova tomorrow.

From a philosophical perspective, no lol, reality could not have existed independent of metrics.  One reason is we have the sameness-in-difference tautology of logic to turn to, which states that all relational entities must necessarily reduce to a common medium.  Because what is real and unreal are relational entities, it follows they, too, reduce to a common medium.  Metrics axiomatically create the distinction between real and unreal according to a simple difference metric (i.e. 1 vs. 0).  No metric --> no distinction between what's real and unreal.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
May 18, 2015, 04:03:36 PM
I pray to get strength to face all of my problems. But, the other people said that praying is the shortcut to success. As a example, there is a person who pray to get rich directly, but for me, I pray to stay strong in my job and work hardly, so I can get rich in my way.

Sounds to me like you are lazy and want things handed to you.  You want strength?  Go work out (physical) or mediate (mental).

Two working hands can accomplish more than a million clasped in prayer.
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