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Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 421. (Read 901367 times)

Buffer Overflow

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Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:37:54 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:35:37 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:31:50 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:24:03 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:17:25 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:11:11 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

Do you really know that I don't know? If so, how do you know that I don't know?

Cheesy

Cheesy

Because you can't remember what you was doing before you was born. And you haven't died yet to find out.

So any views what will happen when you die are wild wishful thinking speculation at best.

Just because I didn't tell YOU what I was doing before I was born, doesn't mean I don't know. So, any of the views that you have about what will happen to you when you die are probably just wishful thinking.

Oh that's interesting. Perhaps you'd care to share your experiences with us what you was doing before you was born....

Why should I waste the time. You wouldn't believe it anyway.

How many of you Fluffer Overblows are there, anyway? When one of you gets tired, another one takes over.

Speculating what's going to happen when we die is a waste of time anyway as nobody knows.
Anyone claiming xyz is going to happen when we die is simply lying, end of story.

What are "Fluffer Overblow" type people? Logical intelligent people?

BADecker

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Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:35:37 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:31:50 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:24:03 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:17:25 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:11:11 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

Do you really know that I don't know? If so, how do you know that I don't know?

Cheesy

Cheesy

Because you can't remember what you was doing before you was born. And you haven't died yet to find out.

So any views what will happen when you die are wild wishful thinking speculation at best.

Just because I didn't tell YOU what I was doing before I was born, doesn't mean I don't know. So, any of the views that you have about what will happen to you when you die are probably just wishful thinking.

Oh that's interesting. Perhaps you'd care to share your experiences with us what you was doing before you was born....

Why should I waste the time. You wouldn't believe it anyway.

How many of you Fluffer Overblows are there, anyway? When one of you gets tired, another one takes over.

Buffer Overflow

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Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:31:50 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:24:03 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:17:25 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:11:11 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

Do you really know that I don't know? If so, how do you know that I don't know?

Cheesy

Cheesy

Because you can't remember what you was doing before you was born. And you haven't died yet to find out.

So any views what will happen when you die are wild wishful thinking speculation at best.

Just because I didn't tell YOU what I was doing before I was born, doesn't mean I don't know. So, any of the views that you have about what will happen to you when you die are probably just wishful thinking.

Oh that's interesting. Perhaps you'd care to share your experiences with us what you was doing before you was born....

BADecker

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Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:24:03 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:17:25 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:11:11 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

Do you really know that I don't know? If so, how do you know that I don't know?

Cheesy

Cheesy

Because you can't remember what you was doing before you was born. And you haven't died yet to find out.

So any views what will happen when you die are wild wishful thinking speculation at best.

Just because I didn't tell YOU what I was doing before I was born, doesn't mean I don't know. So, any of the views that you have about what will happen to you when you die are probably just wishful thinking.

Buffer Overflow

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Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 01:17:25 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:11:11 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

Do you really know that I don't know? If so, how do you know that I don't know?

Cheesy

Cheesy

Because you can't remember what you was doing before you was born. And you haven't died yet to find out.

So any views what will happen when you die are wild wishful thinking speculation at best.

BADecker

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Quote from: Lauda on May 28, 2015, 01:11:27 AM

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 27, 2015, 05:06:34 PM

Or what's happens if the devil has been tricking all the religious folk all along.
Atheists will have the last laugh then.

Actually this is quite a good point. The chances for this are the same as the chances for it being the real "god".

The devil is quite advanced beyond us. The Bible says that there was a time that he "walked among the fiery stones." This means that he walked in the same places the real God walked. He is quite powerful. Many - maybe most - will think that he is the real god, simply because of the power that he DOES have... even if that power lies only in his deceptive talk.

cryptodevil

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Quote from: Lauda on May 28, 2015, 01:11:27 AM

You did make the right point. Even now, our surroundings might actually be completely different from what we see. What we see is just how our brain interprets information from our senses. This is why we sometimes see weird shapes in the dark and such even though there is nothing there.

Which is one of the reasons we can safely rely on objective measurements from non-biological instruments, namely, technology.

We have built plenty of technology solely for the purpose of being able to measure and observe both that which our senses cannot be considered reliable instruments for, such as the tendency to 'see' patterns such as the 'weird shapes' in the dark, as well as that which our sense simply are not capable of detecting due to their limited capacity.

So, no, when theists like to cite 'woo' and how we humans simply don't 'know enough' they are ignoring the inconvenient fact that, actually, we know quite a lot and none of their claims towards the existence of 'woo' withstand any sort of critical analysis, through reason or technological observation and measurement.

BADecker

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Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 28, 2015, 01:11:11 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

Do you really know that I don't know? If so, how do you know that I don't know?

Cheesy

Cheesy

BADecker

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Quote from: cryptodevil on May 28, 2015, 01:06:19 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:59:12 AM

That's right. We are our life. And the higher forms of us, our selves, become consciousness. Our life is there before our brains form. We are there.

Wow. Much warped twisting of reality.

Let me humour your infantile assertion for a minute.

Even if you want to insist that the initial cell-division and replication that takes place at fertilization, be considered as 'life', where is the evidence that we exist as a 'self' before that point?

Same place as the evidence that we don't exist before that point. Since some science is suggesting that the idea of life pervades the whole universe, even inorganics, science is starting to suggest that our consciousness is there in primitive form even before conception. How much more will it be there after conception! You are still in old-school.

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: Buffer Overflow on May 27, 2015, 05:06:34 PM

Or what's happens if the devil has been tricking all the religious folk all along.
Atheists will have the last laugh then.

Actually this is quite a good point. The chances for this are the same as the chances for it being the real "god".

Quote from: cryptodevil on May 28, 2015, 12:36:22 AM

What has this:

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

You know that there isn't any evidence that shows that we didn't exist before our brains did.

Got to do with this:

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

However, it is common knowledge that inside the fallopian tube our bodies existed before our brains started forming.

That our body is formed prior to our brain doesn't serve as a rebuttal to the point I made.
We are not our arms and legs, we exist in the firings of our neurons, so how does your point serve, well, your point?

You did make the right point. Even now, our surroundings might actually be completely different from what we see. What we see is just how our brain interprets information from our senses. This is why we sometimes see weird shapes in the dark and such even though there is nothing there.

Quote from: Alphi on May 27, 2015, 11:48:41 PM

each side thinks they have seen the light and that the other is living in ignorance.
-snip-

Since you've already brought up "seeing the light", I might as well say something in regards to that. You can read from time to time how person X saw *insert random god/saint or other nonsense* that talked to the person in his NDE (near-death experience). This is what deluded people believe. Even though the exact reasons are still unknown due to the lack of knowledge of the brain, this happens because of oxygen starvation.
Oxygen starvation causes failure of all the organs and tissues of the body, and the eyes and brain are most sensitive to its effects, failing before any other organs. It doesn't affect all parts of the brain at the same time.

People see, hear and believe what they want to, even though it's irrational and often wrong. That's how deluded they can be.

Buffer Overflow

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Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:20:50 AM

People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell.

See here's a prime example of someone telling you as fact what's going to happen when you die.
As we've already concluded, nobody knows what will happen when die, so this person is obviously lying.

cryptodevil

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Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:59:12 AM

That's right. We are our life. And the higher forms of us, our selves, become consciousness. Our life is there before our brains form. We are there.

Wow. Much warped twisting of reality.

Let me humour your infantile assertion for a minute.

Even if you want to insist that the initial cell-division and replication that takes place at fertilization, be considered as 'life', where is the evidence that we exist as a 'self' before that point?

BADecker

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Quote from: cryptodevil on May 28, 2015, 12:36:22 AM

What has this:

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

You know that there isn't any evidence that shows that we didn't exist before our brains did.

Got to do with this:

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

However, it is common knowledge that inside the fallopian tube our bodies existed before our brains started forming.

That our body is formed prior to our brain doesn't serve as a rebuttal to the point I made.

We are not our arms and legs, we exist in the firings of our neurons, so how does your point serve, well, your point?

That's right. We are our life. And the higher forms of us, our selves, become consciousness. Our life is there before our brains form. We are there.

cryptodevil

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What has this:

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

You know that there isn't any evidence that shows that we didn't exist before our brains did.

Got to do with this:

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

However, it is common knowledge that inside the fallopian tube our bodies existed before our brains started forming.

That our body is formed prior to our brain doesn't serve as a rebuttal to the point I made.

We are not our arms and legs, we exist in the firings of our neurons, so how does your point serve, well, your point?

BADecker

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Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 28, 2015, 12:12:37 AM

Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:06:22 AM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:51:15 PM

Quote from: BADecker on May 27, 2015, 11:45:04 PM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:16:31 PM

Quote from: Scream on May 27, 2015, 11:14:09 PM

We don't hate religion we just think that many people who have religion push their beliefs on others (ex. pilgrims Hitler the people who landed in South America etc.). it IS a cause of war, violence, and such, but so is everything else. i think religion is uncertain and no one should claim to know because that just causes arguments (agnostic). I think that many problems are caused by religion, I do however, encourage people to have their own way of thinking. MY only problem is when people start pushing their opinions on me. that is MY personal opinion, you may have your own, she may think this, he may think that, and if you are trying to convince me of some mythical creature, shut the hell up. One of my friends earlier today said, "You don't believe in God, get a life." I didn't say anything, but i was thinking wtf. I see the irony in the fact that there are plenty of people out there willing to cause harm for their religion, when the situation is as you put it, "When most religions are against such things," but many religions who believe these things have their share of violence. Hitler for example. He WAS Catholic and how did that turn out? Yeah. Not so well. I do admit that some Atheists can be rather critical, but I do agree with the first commenter, you do sometimes make it easy to criticize....
To put it plain and simple, I share the same opinion as seasnake, to some extent. It has caused much harm.

i totally agree with you. i dont believe in forcing religion on someone who does not believe in it. what i find interesting tho is sharing thoughts with people who are opposite of my thoughts, its a very nice way to learn the psychology of the mind. and since i love talking ....

Absolutely right. Nobody should push his religion onto anyone else, neither Christians theirs, nor Muslims theirs, nor Buddhists theirs, nor atheists theirs, etc. In other words, get atheism out of the schools.

decker, why so much hate? how do you expect people to take you seriously in propagating your faith if you cannot accept other people's choice?

Hmmm. That's a good question. I haven't thought about it for a long while. I guess I couldn't find enough hate in myself to understand the importance of thinking about it.

then why cant you accept someone else has a different religion, and atheist have no religion, but we are all human. why do you feel the need to tell on almost all post concerning religion that if you dont become christian there is no salvation for you

Now I understand where you are coming from.

First, according to the dictionary definitions of the words "religion" and "atheism," atheism is a religion. It simply isn't a religion in the same sense, and the same way, that Christianity and Islam and Buddhism are. However, Christianity is much more like Islam than either of them are like Buddhism.

As far as me expressing Christianity as the only way, it's like this. People who don't believe in Jesus salvation are going to Hell. I love all people, so I don't want any of them to go to Hell. When I tell them about Jesus salvation, there is a chance that they will change and start to believe in Jesus salvation and be saved, and go to Heaven. If they don't, and if they become angry instead, Oh well. They are still going to Hell just like before. At least there was a chance if I told them, but little chance if they didn't hear it.

zeeshsnrehman2

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Quote from: BADecker on May 28, 2015, 12:06:22 AM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:51:15 PM

Quote from: BADecker on May 27, 2015, 11:45:04 PM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:16:31 PM

Quote from: Scream on May 27, 2015, 11:14:09 PM

We don't hate religion we just think that many people who have religion push their beliefs on others (ex. pilgrims Hitler the people who landed in South America etc.). it IS a cause of war, violence, and such, but so is everything else. i think religion is uncertain and no one should claim to know because that just causes arguments (agnostic). I think that many problems are caused by religion, I do however, encourage people to have their own way of thinking. MY only problem is when people start pushing their opinions on me. that is MY personal opinion, you may have your own, she may think this, he may think that, and if you are trying to convince me of some mythical creature, shut the hell up. One of my friends earlier today said, "You don't believe in God, get a life." I didn't say anything, but i was thinking wtf. I see the irony in the fact that there are plenty of people out there willing to cause harm for their religion, when the situation is as you put it, "When most religions are against such things," but many religions who believe these things have their share of violence. Hitler for example. He WAS Catholic and how did that turn out? Yeah. Not so well. I do admit that some Atheists can be rather critical, but I do agree with the first commenter, you do sometimes make it easy to criticize....
To put it plain and simple, I share the same opinion as seasnake, to some extent. It has caused much harm.

i totally agree with you. i dont believe in forcing religion on someone who does not believe in it. what i find interesting tho is sharing thoughts with people who are opposite of my thoughts, its a very nice way to learn the psychology of the mind. and since i love talking ....

Absolutely right. Nobody should push his religion onto anyone else, neither Christians theirs, nor Muslims theirs, nor Buddhists theirs, nor atheists theirs, etc. In other words, get atheism out of the schools.

decker, why so much hate? how do you expect people to take you seriously in propagating your faith if you cannot accept other people's choice?

Hmmm. That's a good question. I haven't thought about it for a long while. I guess I couldn't find enough hate in myself to understand the importance of thinking about it.

then why cant you accept someone else has a different religion, and atheist have no religion, but we are all human. why do you feel the need to tell on almost all post concerning religion that if you dont become christian there is no salvation for you

BADecker

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Quote from: cryptodevil on May 27, 2015, 11:59:20 PM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:13:02 PM

Quote from: cryptodevil on May 27, 2015, 11:05:11 PM

We didn't exist before our brain existed, therefore there is no justifiable reason to believe we exist after our brain ceases functioning.

If you want to suggest otherwise then it is your responsibility to present sufficient evidence to support your claim.

no need to make it personal about gathering claims and proofs when you know that its not possible to know what happens after death.. it was just a question that i believe not just me have asked about it... ive asked what you think happens thats all

LOL! Where did I make it 'personal'? Hah! I simply replied to your question with a reasoned answer and reminded you that anything outside of that answer would require valid evidence.

How is that making it 'personal'?

Here's how you make it personal, while still being factual:

Quote from: DishonestFundieBADecker

After all this time, and you haven't started to think yet. You still use the same stupidity to try to cloud issues. Or else you still think that somebody will be clouded by the same stupidity. Here's what I mean.

You are the one who stated that "we didn't exist before our brain existed." Now prove that, rather than trying to get others to prove the opposite.

Let's see now, you big ol' dishonest fundamentalist theist, you, I have asserted something based on the facts we do have, namely, there is no data, nor is there any reasonable explanation of mechanism, which supports our existing prior to the biological development of our brain, so my assertion is reasonable and, what's more, for you to suggest otherwise requires *you* to present evidence that our 'self' exists prior to the biological development of our brain.

Do you see how simple this is? No need for complex hypothesis with quantum-entanglement-magic, simply the undeniable fact that there is no evidence to support the notion that we exist outside of our brain's existence.

But this won't matter to you, what with fundie's apparently suffering from such immense intellectual dishonesty that they stop being able to consider the fact that, while they make herculean efforts to compartmentalise the inconvenience of facts, those outside of their bubble-of-dishonesty *do* in fact see them wriggling and writhing in desperate contortions and outright lies to keep their self-scam going.

Chuckle de chuckle.

You know that there isn't any evidence that shows that we didn't exist before our brains did. However, it is common knowledge that inside the fallopian tube our bodies existed before our brains started forming. Science is trying to suggest that the connection between the inorganic and life has to do with life existing in all things, if only in an extremely limited way. So, there you have it. We existed before our brains formed, and even modern science is suggesting this.

BADecker

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Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:51:15 PM

Quote from: BADecker on May 27, 2015, 11:45:04 PM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:16:31 PM

Quote from: Scream on May 27, 2015, 11:14:09 PM

We don't hate religion we just think that many people who have religion push their beliefs on others (ex. pilgrims Hitler the people who landed in South America etc.). it IS a cause of war, violence, and such, but so is everything else. i think religion is uncertain and no one should claim to know because that just causes arguments (agnostic). I think that many problems are caused by religion, I do however, encourage people to have their own way of thinking. MY only problem is when people start pushing their opinions on me. that is MY personal opinion, you may have your own, she may think this, he may think that, and if you are trying to convince me of some mythical creature, shut the hell up. One of my friends earlier today said, "You don't believe in God, get a life." I didn't say anything, but i was thinking wtf. I see the irony in the fact that there are plenty of people out there willing to cause harm for their religion, when the situation is as you put it, "When most religions are against such things," but many religions who believe these things have their share of violence. Hitler for example. He WAS Catholic and how did that turn out? Yeah. Not so well. I do admit that some Atheists can be rather critical, but I do agree with the first commenter, you do sometimes make it easy to criticize....
To put it plain and simple, I share the same opinion as seasnake, to some extent. It has caused much harm.

i totally agree with you. i dont believe in forcing religion on someone who does not believe in it. what i find interesting tho is sharing thoughts with people who are opposite of my thoughts, its a very nice way to learn the psychology of the mind. and since i love talking ....

Absolutely right. Nobody should push his religion onto anyone else, neither Christians theirs, nor Muslims theirs, nor Buddhists theirs, nor atheists theirs, etc. In other words, get atheism out of the schools.

decker, why so much hate? how do you expect people to take you seriously in propagating your faith if you cannot accept other people's choice?

Hmmm. That's a good question. I haven't thought about it for a long while. I guess I couldn't find enough hate in myself to understand the importance of thinking about it.

cryptodevil

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Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:13:02 PM

Quote from: cryptodevil on May 27, 2015, 11:05:11 PM

We didn't exist before our brain existed, therefore there is no justifiable reason to believe we exist after our brain ceases functioning.

If you want to suggest otherwise then it is your responsibility to present sufficient evidence to support your claim.

no need to make it personal about gathering claims and proofs when you know that its not possible to know what happens after death.. it was just a question that i believe not just me have asked about it... ive asked what you think happens thats all

LOL! Where did I make it 'personal'? Hah! I simply replied to your question with a reasoned answer and reminded you that anything outside of that answer would require valid evidence.

How is that making it 'personal'?

Here's how you make it personal, while still being factual:

Quote from: DishonestFundieBADecker

After all this time, and you haven't started to think yet. You still use the same stupidity to try to cloud issues. Or else you still think that somebody will be clouded by the same stupidity. Here's what I mean.

You are the one who stated that "we didn't exist before our brain existed." Now prove that, rather than trying to get others to prove the opposite.

Let's see now, you big ol' dishonest fundamentalist theist, you, I have asserted something based on the facts we do have, namely, there is no data, nor is there any reasonable explanation of mechanism, which supports our existing prior to the biological development of our brain, so my assertion is reasonable and, what's more, for you to suggest otherwise requires *you* to present evidence that our 'self' exists prior to the biological development of our brain.

Do you see how simple this is? No need for complex hypothesis with quantum-entanglement-magic, simply the undeniable fact that there is no evidence to support the notion that we exist outside of our brain's existence.

But this won't matter to you, what with fundie's apparently suffering from such immense intellectual dishonesty that they stop being able to consider the fact that, while they make herculean efforts to compartmentalise the inconvenience of facts, those outside of their bubble-of-dishonesty *do* in fact see them wriggling and writhing in desperate contortions and outright lies to keep their self-scam going.

zeeshsnrehman2

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Activity: 168

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Where is Teddy?

Quote from: BADecker on May 27, 2015, 11:45:04 PM

Quote from: zeeshsnrehman2 on May 27, 2015, 11:16:31 PM

Quote from: Scream on May 27, 2015, 11:14:09 PM

We don't hate religion we just think that many people who have religion push their beliefs on others (ex. pilgrims Hitler the people who landed in South America etc.). it IS a cause of war, violence, and such, but so is everything else. i think religion is uncertain and no one should claim to know because that just causes arguments (agnostic). I think that many problems are caused by religion, I do however, encourage people to have their own way of thinking. MY only problem is when people start pushing their opinions on me. that is MY personal opinion, you may have your own, she may think this, he may think that, and if you are trying to convince me of some mythical creature, shut the hell up. One of my friends earlier today said, "You don't believe in God, get a life." I didn't say anything, but i was thinking wtf. I see the irony in the fact that there are plenty of people out there willing to cause harm for their religion, when the situation is as you put it, "When most religions are against such things," but many religions who believe these things have their share of violence. Hitler for example. He WAS Catholic and how did that turn out? Yeah. Not so well. I do admit that some Atheists can be rather critical, but I do agree with the first commenter, you do sometimes make it easy to criticize....
To put it plain and simple, I share the same opinion as seasnake, to some extent. It has caused much harm.

i totally agree with you. i dont believe in forcing religion on someone who does not believe in it. what i find interesting tho is sharing thoughts with people who are opposite of my thoughts, its a very nice way to learn the psychology of the mind. and since i love talking ....

Absolutely right. Nobody should push his religion onto anyone else, neither Christians theirs, nor Muslims theirs, nor Buddhists theirs, nor atheists theirs, etc. In other words, get atheism out of the schools.

decker, why so much hate? how do you expect people to take you seriously in propagating your faith if you cannot accept other people's choice?

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